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Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clearview.



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 28th 15, 06:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 4,018
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clear view.

On Wed, 27 May 2015 15:46:35 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 27 May 2015 13:58:00 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

Motorists notice me because I represent expensive damage to the
panelwork of their cars, and everything about my bike and my
riding style announces it clearly.


Like this?

(...)

One more. You can make rifle mounting clips for your bicycle:
https://bsamuseum.wordpress.com/rifle-mounting-clips/
That should give motorists something to worry about.
https://bsamuseum.wordpress.com
BSA is Birmingham Small Arms Ltd.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Ads
  #22  
Old May 28th 15, 08:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 6,153
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clearview.

On 28/05/15 13:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/27/2015 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2015 1:56 PM, wrote:
Ride like you're invisible to motorists

"Ride like you're invisible to motorists" is obviously nonsense. What
would you do - come to a stop every time a motor vehicle comes into
view?

"Ride in a prominent, conspicuous road position, one that makes you
visible" is a lot more reasonable. In addition to drawing attention and
generating early notice, a prominent road position also gives you a lot
more escape room should something go wrong.

http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...e-positioning/


I suspect that the "Ride like you're invisible to motorists"
suggestion actually means something more like "ride like the motorist
doesn't notice you while texting, applying makeup, etc."


FWIW, this has been discussed on various (and more serious) bike
education forums that I'm part of.

"Ride like your invisible" is most often interpreted as "Stay completely
out of the way no matter what. Ride in the gutter, or better yet on the
sidewalk. Ride facing traffic so you can bail out in the grass if a car
comes at you." And so on. It pretty clearly says "Act as if you have
no right to the road." It sends precisely the wrong message.


To me it means ride very defensively, keep a close eye on them and try
to anticipate their moves, and have an escape plan. I ride in a
prominent position in the hope they will see me. Mostly they do,
however twice recently, despite riding in a prominent position on the
road in broad day light and contrasty clothes, I had drivers come from
side roads on my right who turned on to the street in the same direction
of travel as me - right in front of me, such that I had to take evasive
action to avoid a collision. I believe their view of me was blocked by
the left side A pillar.

--
JS

  #23  
Old May 28th 15, 09:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clearview.

On 5/28/2015 8:32 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 23:56:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

"Ride like you're invisible to motorists" is obviously nonsense. What
would you do - come to a stop every time a motor vehicle comes into view?
...


If someone said "Keep alert for motorist mistakes," I certainly wouldn't
object. I do that all the time. But pretending invisibility simply
makes no sense. It stinks even as a joke.


I suggest that it is largely a matter of semantics. "Ride like you are
invisible" can be interpreted equally well as "ride like they don't
see you", which is a pretty sensible attitude...


I spent decades as a teacher. When one is trying to teach something -
whether engineering, music, bicycling or whatever - semantics make a big
difference. Catch phrases like the one under discussion really do tend
to stick in student's minds and get replayed as an aid to quick
decisions. It's important those catch phrases generate the right
behavior. And again, "Ride like you're invisible" can generate behavior
that's precisely wrong.

... as if they don't see
you then "taking the lane" could also be translated as "Suicide".


I think some people imagine "taking the lane" as "swoop left in front of
a motorist at the last minute." That might be suicide, and is
specifically prohibited by good cycling education materials, as well as
state laws. The idea is to be in a prominent road position before the
motor vehicle approaches. It greatly reduces the "don't see you"
events, which is one of its main points.

I've always felt and suggested that when something is larger than you,
faster than you, more powerful than you and harder than you that it
behooves you to avoid this thing.

Not hope that the thing will avoid you.


Once again, the question is: Ten foot lane, 8.5 foot truck. Where do
you ride? If you try to avoid it by skimming the pavement edge, you
signal to the trucker that it's fine to brush your elbow and squeeze past.

No thanks. I've tried both tactics; I know what works better.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #24  
Old May 28th 15, 09:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clearview.

On 5/28/2015 10:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 8:56:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/27/2015 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

snip

Everyone I know who has tried it - and there are many - report that
riding more prominently gets them much more passing clearance from
motorists, and fewer crashes and close calls. For one thing, it's
obvious from much further back that the presence of the cyclist will
require some attention.


Although passing clearance often has nothing to do with road position.

I have been passed closely while riding lane center -- taking the entire
lane. Numerous times. Taking the lane makes sense in places, but it is no
guaranty of safe passes.

Really, nothing is 100% guaranteed. All one can do is arrange to put
the odds in one's favor.

Today I did a club ride (retirement is nice!), about 25 miles on mostly
narrow rural roads, plus a state highway or two. About a dozen riders.
I don't think there was a moment when we didn't control the lane, i.e.
ride near lane center, often two abreast. We suffered zero close
passes, and I believe every motorist went as far left as possible to
pass us.

No, it's not always 100%. About two weeks ago I led a club ride and had
one pickup truck driver (with a "handicapped" plate) deliberately pass
me with about a foot of clearance, despite having an open left lane on
the low-traffic four-lane road. Jerks exist. But even in that case, my
leftward position gave me room to move right if I'd really needed it.

If I'd ridden a foot from the gutter - default position for many
cyclists - I would probably have endured many more passes about that
close. The difference would have been that those motorists wouldn't
have thought they were doing anything wrong.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #25  
Old May 28th 15, 09:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clearview.

On 5/28/2015 3:56 PM, James wrote:
I ride in a
prominent position in the hope they will see me. Mostly they do,
however twice recently, despite riding in a prominent position on the
road in broad day light and contrasty clothes, I had drivers come from
side roads on my right who turned on to the street in the same direction
of travel as me - right in front of me, such that I had to take evasive
action to avoid a collision. I believe their view of me was blocked by
the left side A pillar.


That's interesting. I've noticed similar situations where the driver's
A pillar might have hidden me from view. That definitely puts me on
high alert, ready to evade.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #26  
Old May 28th 15, 09:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clear view.

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 6:56:14 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 15:46:35 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 27 May 2015 13:58:00 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

Motorists notice me because I represent expensive damage to the
panelwork of their cars, and everything about my bike and my
riding style announces it clearly.


Like this?

(...)

One more. You can make rifle mounting clips for your bicycle:
https://bsamuseum.wordpress.com/rifle-mounting-clips/
That should give motorists something to worry about.
https://bsamuseum.wordpress.com
BSA is Birmingham Small Arms Ltd.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


My local poh-lees (as I understand is now the approved street corner manner of describing the keepers of the peace) disapprove severely of fireams on the streets. (They themselves in the main go unarmed.)

However, I have found the 300mm length of Abus Granit X 54 U lock a useful tool, socially imperceptible except to drivers who come within the legally required clearance zone of one meter of me, and 12" extension of the tool itself is rather useful. It's a solid substitute for a three-pound hammer, indeed in many respects superior because it has more operating edges. http://www.amazon.com/Lockitt-ABUS-G.../dp/B001E7G4XU You can get any number of different clips to fix it to your bike, but the one that suits its dual purpose as a defensive weapon best is the heavy duty black reinforced plastics clip with the pressbutton quick release. I carry mine (or used to; I don't need to any more) mounted high up on the seat tube under the seat where my hand falls naturally on it, thumb on the release button, fingers curling over the bottom of the U, where it is nicely balanced in the hand.

As I say, I don't need it any more; it's point is long established. First of all, on my bike, sitting upright, I'm taller than any SUV; I look like expensive damage, and I ride with the aggressive confidence of someone who doesn't lose at games, with a smile like a row of tombstones and the guileless nod of an innocent baby to shocked drivers slowing their oncoming cars; it ensures that they give me a wide berth when they approach me from behind, to protect their expensive cars. (After taxes, a top of the range Range Rover is the equivalent of a quarter million in USD...) Secondly, if I get the slightest chance, I make eye-contact with drivers, after which they don't overlook me. Thirdly, I ride like I'm invisible -- and, just to ensure morons like Frank Krygowski don't again fail to get it (apologies for the offense to everyone else's intelligence -- hell, even Slow Johnny got it first time round), of course as if I intend to make myself not only visible but memorable. Fourthly, I ride on roads where many drivers know me and greet me, and those who've had run-ins with me take care not to come near me (indeed some pull off the road until I pass, and one bursts into tears every time he sees me). Fifth, I don't hold up anyone maliciously, as Krygowski does from mindless obstructionism, only for my own safety; in the harvest season, I jump off the road, into full ditches if necessary, for farm machinery speeding between fields, and the rest of the year am repaid handsomely by farmers and their wives waiting patiently behind me on the narrowest lanes. As an invisible cyclist, I feature LARGE with drivers. Stick that where it hurts, Franki-boy! The first three are helpful methods anywhere, but drivers knowing you of course depends on where you ride and how often, and who drives there; it is a fortunate byproduct of my favourite rides starting in most cases from my front door, or no more than a mile away.

Andre Jute
A victim who leaves hairy footprints
(Who wants to bet that illiterate clown Krygowski doesn't get this one either?)
  #27  
Old May 28th 15, 09:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clear view.

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 8:56:59 PM UTC+1, James wrote:

"Ride like you're invisible to motorists"

To me it means ride very defensively, keep a close eye on them and try
to anticipate their moves, and have an escape plan. I ride in a
prominent position in the hope they will see me. Mostly they do,
however twice recently, despite riding in a prominent position on the
road in broad day light and contrasty clothes, I had drivers come from
side roads on my right who turned on to the street in the same direction
of travel as me - right in front of me, such that I had to take evasive
action to avoid a collision. I believe their view of me was blocked by
the left side A pillar.

--
JS


Automobike manufacturers are aware of the visibility problems caused by thick windshield and other pillars. Here's Jaguar's solution. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c98h41TkREA

Still not going to do cyclists much good if the driver is careless or distracted by his phone...

Andre Jute
  #28  
Old May 28th 15, 09:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clear view.

On Thu, 28 May 2015 13:37:49 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

My local poh-lees (as I understand is now the approved street corner
manner of describing the keepers of the peace) disapprove severely
of fireams on the streets. (They themselves in the main go unarmed.)


Well, ok. That's a problem. Instead, I suggest you simply install
the visible gun mounts to give the impression that you prefer violent
solutions to social problems. I don't know the legality, but a row of
shotgun shells and possibly some (empty) leather pistol holder mounted
in conspicuous locations might also be helpful. Image is everything.

However, I have found the 300mm length of Abus Granit X 54 U lock
a useful tool, socially imperceptible except to drivers who come
within the legally required clearance zone of one meter of me,
and 12" extension of the tool itself is rather useful.


You get 1 meter (39.37 inches) clearance and we only get 36.0 inches?
This has some serious implications, such as the cost of building your
roads 3 inches wider in order to comply with the required clearances.
Have you considered abandoning metric and going back to imperial
measures? It might be cheaper.

My weapon of choice is a cable lock, with a heavy lock on the end.
I've considered adding spikes to the lock and a wooden handle, but
that would be a bit too mediaeval and obvious. The cable lock is not
as secure as a U-lock, but is considerably cheaper. That's a major
requirement because I have the incurable habit of loosing my cable
locks on rides. At about $30 for a generic U-Lock and about $5 for a
home made cable lock with Nicopress fittings, I can lose 5 cable locks
to break even.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #29  
Old May 29th 15, 12:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clear view.

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 8:32:54 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 23:56:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2015 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2015 1:56 PM, wrote:
Ride like you're invisible to motorists

"Ride like you're invisible to motorists" is obviously nonsense. What
would you do - come to a stop every time a motor vehicle comes into view?

"Ride in a prominent, conspicuous road position, one that makes you
visible" is a lot more reasonable. In addition to drawing attention and
generating early notice, a prominent road position also gives you a lot
more escape room should something go wrong.

http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...e-positioning/

I suspect that the "Ride like you're invisible to motorists"
suggestion actually means something more like "ride like the motorist
doesn't notice you while texting, applying makeup, etc."


FWIW, this has been discussed on various (and more serious) bike
education forums that I'm part of.

"Ride like your invisible" is most often interpreted as "Stay completely
out of the way no matter what. Ride in the gutter, or better yet on the
sidewalk. Ride facing traffic so you can bail out in the grass if a car
comes at you." And so on. It pretty clearly says "Act as if you have
no right to the road." It sends precisely the wrong message.

Your suggestion to ride in a conspicuous road position relies on the
driver being aware of his surroundings, which apparently isn't always
true given the large number of auto accidents where the driver says "I
didn't see him/it".


Everyone I know who has tried it - and there are many - report that
riding more prominently gets them much more passing clearance from
motorists, and fewer crashes and close calls. For one thing, it's
obvious from much further back that the presence of the cyclist will
require some attention.

Review the article and video in the link above. Or check out this one:
http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...sesame-street/

If that woman had taken Jute's advice literally, she probably would have
been riding to the right of the right-turn-only lane at the video's
beginning. She certainly would have been skimming the curb on other
sections of the road; and motorists would have been skimming her left elbow.

If someone said "Keep alert for motorist mistakes," I certainly wouldn't
object. I do that all the time. But pretending invisibility simply
makes no sense. It stinks even as a joke.


I suggest that it is largely a matter of semantics. "Ride like you are
invisible" can be interpreted equally well as "ride like they don't
see you", which is a pretty sensible attitude, as if they don't see
you then "taking the lane" could also be translated as "Suicide".

I've always felt and suggested that when something is larger than you,
faster than you, more powerful than you and harder than you that it
behooves you to avoid this thing.

Not hope that the thing will avoid you.
--
Cheers,

John B.


Like when you are approaching a narrow bridge, an 18 wheeler is barreling down on you, you're lane centre but the 18 wheeler isn't slowing so just before you get onto the bridge you elect to leave the lane so's not to have that run down feeling, you then get told that a, you should have stayed lane center as the 18 wheel would have slowed so's not to run you over, and b, that you're "a scardy ct and shouldn't be riding in traffic because you elected to bail rather than stay in the lane". Never mind that the 18 wheeler just missed hitting you as it was.

Cheers
  #30  
Old May 29th 15, 12:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clear view.

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 4:21:51 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/28/2015 10:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 8:56:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/27/2015 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

snip

Everyone I know who has tried it - and there are many - report that
riding more prominently gets them much more passing clearance from
motorists, and fewer crashes and close calls. For one thing, it's
obvious from much further back that the presence of the cyclist will
require some attention.


Although passing clearance often has nothing to do with road position.

I have been passed closely while riding lane center -- taking the entire
lane. Numerous times. Taking the lane makes sense in places, but it is no
guaranty of safe passes.

Really, nothing is 100% guaranteed. All one can do is arrange to put
the odds in one's favor.

Today I did a club ride (retirement is nice!), about 25 miles on mostly
narrow rural roads, plus a state highway or two. About a dozen riders.
I don't think there was a moment when we didn't control the lane, i.e.
ride near lane center, often two abreast. We suffered zero close
passes, and I believe every motorist went as far left as possible to
pass us.

No, it's not always 100%. About two weeks ago I led a club ride and had
one pickup truck driver (with a "handicapped" plate) deliberately pass
me with about a foot of clearance, despite having an open left lane on
the low-traffic four-lane road. Jerks exist. But even in that case, my
leftward position gave me room to move right if I'd really needed it.

If I'd ridden a foot from the gutter - default position for many
cyclists - I would probably have endured many more passes about that
close. The difference would have been that those motorists wouldn't
have thought they were doing anything wrong.


--
- Frank Krygowski


As you often ask, where's the proof that if you were not lane center you'd have been in danger. You say, "I belive..." yet many times you ask others for empiracal prrof that their belief is fact.

In many locales riding in the center of a lane in traffic for any distance is very likely to have very unpleasant results for many bicyclists.

Alos, in many locales it is against the law to ride lane center if it impedes traffic and it's also against the law to ride two abreast a t any time.

cheers
 




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