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#12
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Weight of tamdem versus two solo bikes
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2020 5:00 PM, bob prohaska wrote: A question posed to the New Scientist's 4 July issue posits that multi-seat bikes have a total weight advantage over solo bikes (per seat), asking at what seat count the weight advantage per seat fades away. Initially, I thought the premise of the question mistaken, but now I'm curious: Is it true that a modern tandem weighs less than two solo bikes of the same total carrying capacity? The illustration that accompanied the question is of a triple, which I've never seen anywhere in the wild and was probably chosen for its attention getting value. It's on page 56, alas no weblink is offered. Thanks for reading, bob prohaska I don't know about triples, but for our tandem (i.e. double), I think it's certainly true. This is a steel bike, oversized Reynolds 531 tubing, lugless brazed construction done in 1979 and no components are particularly lightweight. It weighs about 39 pounds with fenders, dynamo lighting, heavy wheels and 32mm tires. In those days I don't think a single bike of its quality would have weighed less than 20 pounds. There's also this authoritative reference, by Tony Pranses: ================================================== =============== SHOVELIN' COAL There are those who think the tandem is the instrument sublime For the serious cycle-tourist, and the man concerned with time. It has drive and rolls much faster as it gobbles up the track, But it's quite another matter to the guy who sits in back...shovelin' coal. But just look at the advantages with twice the power at hand, And half the wind resistance as it travels o'er the land. The weight is less than double. This alone gives peace of mind. But it's still another matter to the guy who sits behind...shovelin' coal. Yes, the man up front is master. It is he who shifts the gears. He decides when brakes are needed, and on top of this he steers. He can go the wrong direction and wind up in Timbuktu; But refuses any protest from the guy who's number two...shovelin' coal. It's just like a locomotive, with the front man engineer, He sits back and shouts instructions to the fireman in the rear. It's the way to run a railroad. With a bike it's not so sweet To the sweating, swearing fellow on the secondary seat...shovelin' coal. True, the pilots work the throttles while their partners work the flaps. They are barely more than slaves -- a society of saps. Co-pilots do the labor. They are not supposed to feel. It's likewise with the suckers above the rearward wheel...shovelin' coal. His view ahead is blank and to peek would be a sin; So he can't see where he's going -- only places where he's been. He would love to lean to starboard when to port they make a turn, But such pleasure is verboten to the fellow in the stern...shovelin' coal. Yet there will be retribution on some future day in hell, When all tandem frames have melted, and the tandem leaders yell. In agony they writhe, and some mercy they request; But the back men just keep doing the thing they've done the best...shovelin' coal. ================================================== =========== Note "The weight is less than double" in the second stanza. Case closed! Marvelous awful poetry! Thank you! bob prohaska |
#13
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Weight of tamdem versus two solo bikes
On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 19:04:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: ================================================== =============== SHOVELIN' COAL There are those who think the tandem is the instrument sublime For the serious cycle-tourist, and the man concerned with time. It has drive and rolls much faster as it gobbles up the track, But it's quite another matter to the guy who sits in back...shovelin' coal. But just look at the advantages with twice the power at hand, And half the wind resistance as it travels o'er the land. The weight is less than double. This alone gives peace of mind. But it's still another matter to the guy who sits behind...shovelin' coal. Yes, the man up front is master. It is he who shifts the gears. He decides when brakes are needed, and on top of this he steers. He can go the wrong direction and wind up in Timbuktu; But refuses any protest from the guy who's number two...shovelin' coal. It's just like a locomotive, with the front man engineer, He sits back and shouts instructions to the fireman in the rear. It's the way to run a railroad. With a bike it's not so sweet To the sweating, swearing fellow on the secondary seat...shovelin' coal. True, the pilots work the throttles while their partners work the flaps. They are barely more than slaves -- a society of saps. Co-pilots do the labor. They are not supposed to feel. It's likewise with the suckers above the rearward wheel...shovelin' coal. His view ahead is blank and to peek would be a sin; So he can't see where he's going -- only places where he's been. He would love to lean to starboard when to port they make a turn, But such pleasure is verboten to the fellow in the stern...shovelin' coal. Yet there will be retribution on some future day in hell, When all tandem frames have melted, and the tandem leaders yell. In agony they writhe, and some mercy they request; But the back men just keep doing the thing they've done the best...shovelin' coal. ================================================== =========== He didn't mention that the stoker on a tandem also serves as a tail gunner. I once rode cross country in a group that included a tandem team, and we left a trail of up-side-down dogs. The wind blew a bit of the dog-repellent mist into my eyes once, but that was a small price to pay. -- Joy Beeson joy al beeson at gmail dot com http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/ |
#14
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Weight of tamdem versus two solo bikes
On 7/11/2020 11:45 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 19:04:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: ================================================== =============== SHOVELIN' COAL There are those who think the tandem is the instrument sublime For the serious cycle-tourist, and the man concerned with time. It has drive and rolls much faster as it gobbles up the track, But it's quite another matter to the guy who sits in back...shovelin' coal. But just look at the advantages with twice the power at hand, And half the wind resistance as it travels o'er the land. The weight is less than double. This alone gives peace of mind. But it's still another matter to the guy who sits behind...shovelin' coal. Yes, the man up front is master. It is he who shifts the gears. He decides when brakes are needed, and on top of this he steers. He can go the wrong direction and wind up in Timbuktu; But refuses any protest from the guy who's number two...shovelin' coal. It's just like a locomotive, with the front man engineer, He sits back and shouts instructions to the fireman in the rear. It's the way to run a railroad. With a bike it's not so sweet To the sweating, swearing fellow on the secondary seat...shovelin' coal. True, the pilots work the throttles while their partners work the flaps. They are barely more than slaves -- a society of saps. Co-pilots do the labor. They are not supposed to feel. It's likewise with the suckers above the rearward wheel...shovelin' coal. His view ahead is blank and to peek would be a sin; So he can't see where he's going -- only places where he's been. He would love to lean to starboard when to port they make a turn, But such pleasure is verboten to the fellow in the stern...shovelin' coal. Yet there will be retribution on some future day in hell, When all tandem frames have melted, and the tandem leaders yell. In agony they writhe, and some mercy they request; But the back men just keep doing the thing they've done the best...shovelin' coal. ================================================== =========== He didn't mention that the stoker on a tandem also serves as a tail gunner. I once rode cross country in a group that included a tandem team, and we left a trail of up-side-down dogs. The wind blew a bit of the dog-repellent mist into my eyes once, but that was a small price to pay. My wife once rode the front seat of our tandem with one of our kids as the stoker. A dog came out (very rare around here) and my wife managed to spray both the dog and our kid. You've got to be careful with that stuff! -- - Frank Krygowski |
#15
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Weight of tamdem versus two solo bikes
On 7/12/2020 9:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/11/2020 11:45 PM, Joy Beeson wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 19:04:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: ================================================== =============== SHOVELIN' COAL There are those who think the tandem is the instrument sublime For the serious cycle-tourist, and the man concerned with time. It has drive and rolls much faster as it gobbles up the track, But it's quite another matter to the guy who sits in back...shovelin' coal. But just look at the advantages with twice the power at hand, And half the wind resistance as it travels o'er the land. The weight is less than double. This alone gives peace of mind. But it's still another matter to the guy who sits behind...shovelin' coal. Yes, the man up front is master. It is he who shifts the gears. He decides when brakes are needed, and on top of this he steers. He can go the wrong direction and wind up in Timbuktu; But refuses any protest from the guy who's number two...shovelin' coal. It's just like a locomotive, with the front man engineer, He sits back and shouts instructions to the fireman in the rear. It's the way to run a railroad. With a bike it's not so sweet To the sweating, swearing fellow on the secondary seat...shovelin' coal. True, the pilots work the throttles while their partners work the flaps. They are barely more than slaves -- a society of saps. Co-pilots do the labor. They are not supposed to feel. It's likewise with the suckers above the rearward wheel...shovelin' coal. His view ahead is blank and to peek would be a sin; So he can't see where he's going -- only places where he's been. He would love to lean to starboard when to port they make a turn, But such pleasure is verboten to the fellow in the stern...shovelin' coal. Yet there will be retribution on some future day in hell, When all tandem frames have melted, and the tandem leaders yell. In agony they writhe, and some mercy they request; But the back men just keep doing the thing they've done the best...shovelin' coal. ================================================== =========== He didn't mention that the stoker on a tandem also serves as a tail gunner. I once rode cross country in a group that included a tandem team, and we left a trail of up-side-down dogs. The wind blew a bit of the dog-repellent mist into my eyes once, but that was a small price to pay. My wife once rode the front seat of our tandem with one of our kids as the stoker. A dog came out (very rare around here) and my wife managed to spray both the dog and our kid. You've got to be careful with that stuff! An excellent argument against cyclists carrying pistols. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#16
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Weight of tamdem versus two solo bikes
AMuzi wrote:
On 7/12/2020 9:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 7/11/2020 11:45 PM, Joy Beeson wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 19:04:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: ================================================== =============== SHOVELIN' COAL There are those who think the tandem is the instrument sublime For the serious cycle-tourist, and the man concerned with time. It has drive and rolls much faster as it gobbles up the track, But it's quite another matter to the guy who sits in back...shovelin' coal. But just look at the advantages with twice the power at hand, And half the wind resistance as it travels o'er the land. The weight is less than double. This alone gives peace of mind. But it's still another matter to the guy who sits behind...shovelin' coal. Yes, the man up front is master. It is he who shifts the gears. He decides when brakes are needed, and on top of this he steers. He can go the wrong direction and wind up in Timbuktu; But refuses any protest from the guy who's number two...shovelin' coal. It's just like a locomotive, with the front man engineer, He sits back and shouts instructions to the fireman in the rear. It's the way to run a railroad. With a bike it's not so sweet To the sweating, swearing fellow on the secondary seat...shovelin' coal. True, the pilots work the throttles while their partners work the flaps. They are barely more than slaves -- a society of saps. Co-pilots do the labor. They are not supposed to feel. It's likewise with the suckers above the rearward wheel...shovelin' coal. His view ahead is blank and to peek would be a sin; So he can't see where he's going -- only places where he's been. He would love to lean to starboard when to port they make a turn, But such pleasure is verboten to the fellow in the stern...shovelin' coal. Yet there will be retribution on some future day in hell, When all tandem frames have melted, and the tandem leaders yell. In agony they writhe, and some mercy they request; But the back men just keep doing the thing they've done the best...shovelin' coal. ================================================== =========== He didn't mention that the stoker on a tandem also serves as a tail gunner. I once rode cross country in a group that included a tandem team, and we left a trail of up-side-down dogs. The wind blew a bit of the dog-repellent mist into my eyes once, but that was a small price to pay. My wife once rode the front seat of our tandem with one of our kids as the stoker. A dog came out (very rare around here) and my wife managed to spray both the dog and our kid. You've got to be careful with that stuff! Difficult choices. But it's never to early to teach your stoker to hurl rocks at misbehaving dogs and not fall off the seat. An excellent argument against cyclists carrying pistols. Should stoker kids be restricted to throwing flash-bang toys? I don't know. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2181552/When-grenade-fishing-goes-terribly-terribly-wrong.html |
#17
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Weight of tamdem versus two solo bikes
Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote: On 7/12/2020 9:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 7/11/2020 11:45 PM, Joy Beeson wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 19:04:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: ================================================== =============== SHOVELIN' COAL There are those who think the tandem is the instrument sublime For the serious cycle-tourist, and the man concerned with time. It has drive and rolls much faster as it gobbles up the track, But it's quite another matter to the guy who sits in back...shovelin' coal. But just look at the advantages with twice the power at hand, And half the wind resistance as it travels o'er the land. The weight is less than double. This alone gives peace of mind. But it's still another matter to the guy who sits behind...shovelin' coal. Yes, the man up front is master. It is he who shifts the gears. He decides when brakes are needed, and on top of this he steers. He can go the wrong direction and wind up in Timbuktu; But refuses any protest from the guy who's number two...shovelin' coal. It's just like a locomotive, with the front man engineer, He sits back and shouts instructions to the fireman in the rear. It's the way to run a railroad. With a bike it's not so sweet To the sweating, swearing fellow on the secondary seat...shovelin' coal. True, the pilots work the throttles while their partners work the flaps. They are barely more than slaves -- a society of saps. Co-pilots do the labor. They are not supposed to feel. It's likewise with the suckers above the rearward wheel...shovelin' coal. His view ahead is blank and to peek would be a sin; So he can't see where he's going -- only places where he's been. He would love to lean to starboard when to port they make a turn, But such pleasure is verboten to the fellow in the stern...shovelin' coal. Yet there will be retribution on some future day in hell, When all tandem frames have melted, and the tandem leaders yell. In agony they writhe, and some mercy they request; But the back men just keep doing the thing they've done the best...shovelin' coal. ================================================== =========== He didn't mention that the stoker on a tandem also serves as a tail gunner. I once rode cross country in a group that included a tandem team, and we left a trail of up-side-down dogs. The wind blew a bit of the dog-repellent mist into my eyes once, but that was a small price to pay. My wife once rode the front seat of our tandem with one of our kids as the stoker. A dog came out (very rare around here) and my wife managed to spray both the dog and our kid. You've got to be careful with that stuff! Difficult choices. But it's never to early to teach your stoker to hurl rocks at misbehaving dogs and not fall off the seat. An excellent argument against cyclists carrying pistols. Should stoker kids be restricted to throwing flash-bang toys? I don't know. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2181552/When-grenade-fishing-goes-terribly-terribly-wrong.html Wouldn't a ballasted swagger stick be more useful? At least it allows multiple defensive attempts. bob prohaska |
#18
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Weight of tamdem versus two solo bikes
On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 1:09:11 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
Sepp Ruf wrote: AMuzi wrote: On 7/12/2020 9:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: My wife once rode the front seat of our tandem with one of our kids as the stoker. A dog came out (very rare around here) and my wife managed to spray both the dog and our kid. You've got to be careful with that stuff! Difficult choices. But it's never to early to teach your stoker to hurl rocks at misbehaving dogs and not fall off the seat. An excellent argument against cyclists carrying pistols. Should stoker kids be restricted to throwing flash-bang toys? I don't know. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2181552/When-grenade-fishing-goes-terribly-terribly-wrong.html Wouldn't a ballasted swagger stick be more useful? At least it allows multiple defensive attempts. Back when we lived in the southern U.S. and dogs were a real and constant problem, I researched tactics. _Bicycling!_ magazine(in its exclamation point days) had articles on tactics. Some advocated swinging pumps, or carrying a car's telescoping radio antenna to extend and swing. Others pointed out that's likely to throw the rider off balance, perhaps get in the spokes and cause a crash, and is unlikely to deter the dog because of limited range. This is yet another situation where (perhaps hypothetical) benefits need to be compared with detriments. Dog deterrents should work against dogs but not harm riders. IME, "Halt!" spray makes more sense than pistols or sticks. - Frank Krygowski |
#19
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Weight of tamdem versus two solo bikes
On 7/12/2020 11:59 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 1:09:11 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote: Sepp Ruf wrote: AMuzi wrote: On 7/12/2020 9:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: My wife once rode the front seat of our tandem with one of our kids as the stoker. A dog came out (very rare around here) and my wife managed to spray both the dog and our kid. You've got to be careful with that stuff! Difficult choices. But it's never to early to teach your stoker to hurl rocks at misbehaving dogs and not fall off the seat. An excellent argument against cyclists carrying pistols. Should stoker kids be restricted to throwing flash-bang toys? I don't know. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2181552/When-grenade-fishing-goes-terribly-terribly-wrong.html Wouldn't a ballasted swagger stick be more useful? At least it allows multiple defensive attempts. Back when we lived in the southern U.S. and dogs were a real and constant problem, I researched tactics. _Bicycling!_ magazine(in its exclamation point days) had articles on tactics. Some advocated swinging pumps, or carrying a car's telescoping radio antenna to extend and swing. Others pointed out that's likely to throw the rider off balance, perhaps get in the spokes and cause a crash, and is unlikely to deter the dog because of limited range. This is yet another situation where (perhaps hypothetical) benefits need to be compared with detriments. Dog deterrents should work against dogs but not harm riders. IME, "Halt!" spray makes more sense than pistols or sticks. - Frank Krygowski Suddenly pointing at the dog when it gets close and shouting "Go Home!" is fairly effective for me. I can shout quite loudly. Last week I had a more persistent case (farmhouse on remote gravel road), and I went to "Stage 2" deterrents; wait 'til they get close and spray 'em with a water bottle. I hadn't done that in a long while, and I was surprised at how effectively it stopped the dog in his tracks - and I don't think I even hit him. I think spraying up their nose is very effective if your aim is good enough. Mine usually isn't. Not sure how much a dissolved electrolyte fizzy tablet would sting, if at all. This method is problematic if your water supply is low. Mark J. |
#20
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Weight of tamdem versus two solo bikes
On 7/13/2020 8:21 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 7/12/2020 11:59 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 1:09:11 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote: Sepp Ruf wrote: AMuzi wrote: On 7/12/2020 9:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: My wife once rode the front seat of our tandem with one of our kids as the stoker. A dog came out (very rare around here) and my wife managed to spray both the dog and our kid. You've got to be careful with that stuff! Difficult choices.Â* But it's never to early to teach your stoker to hurl rocks at misbehaving dogs and not fall off the seat. An excellent argument against cyclists carrying pistols. Should stoker kids be restricted to throwing flash-bang toys? I don't know. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2181552/When-grenade-fishing-goes-terribly-terribly-wrong.html Wouldn't a ballasted swagger stick be more useful? At least it allows multiple defensive attempts. Back when we lived in the southern U.S. and dogs were a real and constant problem, I researched tactics. _Bicycling!_ magazine(in its exclamation point days) had articles on tactics. Some advocated swinging pumps, or carrying a car's telescoping radio antenna to extend and swing. Others pointed out that's likely to throw the rider off balance, perhaps get in the spokes and cause a crash, and is unlikely to deter the dog because of limited range. This is yet another situation where (perhaps hypothetical) benefits need to be compared with detriments. Dog deterrents should work against dogs but not harm riders. IME, "Halt!" spray makes more sense than pistols or sticks. - Frank Krygowski Suddenly pointing at the dog when it gets close and shouting "Go Home!" is fairly effective for me.Â* I can shout quite loudly. Last week I had a more persistent case (farmhouse on remote gravel road), and I went to "Stage 2" deterrents; wait 'til they get close and spray 'em with a water bottle. I hadn't done that in a long while, and I was surprised at how effectively it stopped the dog in his tracks - and I don't think I even hit him.Â* I think spraying up their nose is very effective if your aim is good enough. Mine usually isn't.Â* Not sure how much a dissolved electrolyte fizzy tablet would sting, if at all. This method is problematic if your water supply is low. I learned to start my aggressive defense before dogs even think of chasing. It consists of staring or glaring at a dog as soon as I see it. I've read that between dogs, a glare is the first sign of dominance. Maybe that's why a surprising percentage of dogs will look at me as I approach with my glare, then quickly turn away as if they just noticed a squirrel. My procedure is this: Glare; if necessary, yell and grab Halt!; if necessary, spray; if necessary, turn around and spray again; repeat as needed, including a day or two later until the dog is trained. In the bad old Southern days, throwing rocks came before Halt! because the dogs were much more common and vicious. In Ohio, I haven't needed to do that more than a few times in 40 years. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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