Longer crankarms

On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:23:16 +0100, "Robert Chung"
wrote:

DirtRoadie wrote:
Formula 1 race cars (and some guy named Lance) generate large
amounts of power with engines that turn at very high rpm.

I'm not so sure that's a fair characterization of Armstrong. During his
climb of Alpe d'Huez a couple of years ago I estimated he was averaging
in the ballpark of 425W at perhaps 100-105rpm or so. That means his rpm's
were slightly higher than most of us but he was producing *lots* more
power, i.e., his torque was pretty high.

F1 race cars generate much more HP than Torque, especially at the high
RPM's. If LANCE is in F1 race car mode, he's generating more
LANCEpower at the high RPM's going up the hills, not utilizing torque.
Jan would be utilizing more torque at his lower RPM attack on the
mountains.

On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:23:16 +0100, "Robert Chung"
wrote:

DirtRoadie wrote:
Formula 1 race cars (and some guy named Lance) generate large
amounts of power with engines that turn at very high rpm.

I'm not so sure that's a fair characterization of Armstrong. During his
climb of Alpe d'Huez a couple of years ago I estimated he was averaging
in the ballpark of 425W at perhaps 100-105rpm or so. That means his rpm's
were slightly higher than most of us but he was producing *lots* more
power, i.e., his torque was pretty high.

F1 race cars generate much more HP than Torque, especially at the high
RPM's. If LANCE is in F1 race car mode, he's generating more
LANCEpower at the high RPM's going up the hills, not utilizing torque.
Jan would be utilizing more torque at his lower RPM attack on the
mountains.

As was pointed out, the crank is just a lever. Sure, you can lift more
weight with a longer lever, but you need to push it through a longer distance,
so it's a tradeoff.

In any case, crank arm length is just part of the story. The mechanical
system extends up through at least your hip. The trajectory of the knee
isn't necessarily strongly affected by crank arm length. So longer cranks only
clearly reduce the force load though a part of the system.

Dan

As was pointed out, the crank is just a lever. Sure, you can lift more
weight with a longer lever, but you need to push it through a longer distance,
so it's a tradeoff.

In any case, crank arm length is just part of the story. The mechanical
system extends up through at least your hip. The trajectory of the knee
isn't necessarily strongly affected by crank arm length. So longer cranks only
clearly reduce the force load though a part of the system.

Dan

In article , chris
wrote:

His comments make me believe that; unless of course he has funded all
his research from his own stash of cash. He clearly doesn't get it,
though. If he did, he would understand how hard it is to get anything
funded, let alone the logistics of field testing. Case in point:

I'll leave out much of detail here, and just touch on the cost and
logistics of looking at data collection for an 8 day stage race. Nor
will I include payment for services rendered.

Pre and post (simple) lactate testing (5 riders) - $300
power meters for all (assuming they'll all ride a power tap & you get
a deal on them) - $2500
Hct samples (~80 samples) - $30
Airfare to get your personnel there - $600
Accommodations (with luck)- $900
Plus a bunch of stuff I missed and a boat load of time plus finding
riders to do this...THEN ALL THE DATA ANALYSIS.

~$4500.00

That's a small amount of money for a star rider or a rider on a big
team. Not an obstacle. The actual testing would likely be done for an
individual rider or just a few from the team, and a team like Mapei was
doing frequent testing with most of their riders already. Adding in the
question of whether or not Bartoli needed 175's or 172.5's wouldn't be
much of a burden or obstacle.

-WG

In article , chris
wrote:

His comments make me believe that; unless of course he has funded all
his research from his own stash of cash. He clearly doesn't get it,
though. If he did, he would understand how hard it is to get anything
funded, let alone the logistics of field testing. Case in point:

I'll leave out much of detail here, and just touch on the cost and
logistics of looking at data collection for an 8 day stage race. Nor
will I include payment for services rendered.

Pre and post (simple) lactate testing (5 riders) - $300
power meters for all (assuming they'll all ride a power tap & you get
a deal on them) - $2500
Hct samples (~80 samples) - $30
Airfare to get your personnel there - $600
Accommodations (with luck)- $900
Plus a bunch of stuff I missed and a boat load of time plus finding
riders to do this...THEN ALL THE DATA ANALYSIS.

~$4500.00

That's a small amount of money for a star rider or a rider on a big
team. Not an obstacle. The actual testing would likely be done for an
individual rider or just a few from the team, and a team like Mapei was
doing frequent testing with most of their riders already. Adding in the
question of whether or not Bartoli needed 175's or 172.5's wouldn't be
much of a burden or obstacle.

-WG

chris wrote:
I'll leave out much of detail here, and just touch on the cost and
logistics of looking at data collection for an 8 day stage race. Nor
will I include payment for services rendered.

Pre and post (simple) lactate testing (5 riders) - $300
power meters for all (assuming they'll all ride a power tap & you get
a deal on them) - $2500
Hct samples (~80 samples) - $30
Airfare to get your personnel there - $600
Accommodations (with luck)- $900
Plus a bunch of stuff I missed and a boat load of time plus finding
riders to do this...THEN ALL THE DATA ANALYSIS.

~$4500.00

Please remit payment to me or forward bill to Ferrari and I'll get
started!

Rominger was handing over 10% of his salary at a time when he was the
world's #1 ranked rider. Other clients are probably paying something
similar. I don't believe cost is the barrier you think it is.

Bob Schwartz

chris wrote:
I'll leave out much of detail here, and just touch on the cost and
logistics of looking at data collection for an 8 day stage race. Nor
will I include payment for services rendered.

Pre and post (simple) lactate testing (5 riders) - $300
power meters for all (assuming they'll all ride a power tap & you get
a deal on them) - $2500
Hct samples (~80 samples) - $30
Airfare to get your personnel there - $600
Accommodations (with luck)- $900
Plus a bunch of stuff I missed and a boat load of time plus finding
riders to do this...THEN ALL THE DATA ANALYSIS.

~$4500.00

Please remit payment to me or forward bill to Ferrari and I'll get
started!

Rominger was handing over 10% of his salary at a time when he was the
world's #1 ranked rider. Other clients are probably paying something
similar. I don't believe cost is the barrier you think it is.

Bob Schwartz

Bob, have you done any human performance research? I can tell you
that you haven't any idea how little money there is, because nobody
give a hoot (at least in the U.S.). Do you honestly think we just sit
around in our labs coming up with the least applicable studies because
its fun? Besides, I didn't say it was a problem for them, its a
problem for us scientists; you know, the guys Ferrari is criticizing.
I should also add that Dr. Ferrari has no human subjects restraints
placed on him either. Anything the scientific community does must
pass some Board's approval. A pro team has none of these constraints.
Regarding Warren's Mapei comment, I can say (from second hand
knowledge) that what they were doing was either not well controlled,
or the sample size was far to small to make actual statistical
assessments.

I would, however, contend that most riders would be reluctant to make
major changes.

CH

Bob Schwartz wrote in message ...
chris wrote:
I'll leave out much of detail here, and just touch on the cost and
logistics of looking at data collection for an 8 day stage race. Nor
will I include payment for services rendered.

Pre and post (simple) lactate testing (5 riders) - $300
power meters for all (assuming they'll all ride a power tap & you get
a deal on them) - $2500
Hct samples (~80 samples) - $30
Airfare to get your personnel there - $600
Accommodations (with luck)- $900
Plus a bunch of stuff I missed and a boat load of time plus finding
riders to do this...THEN ALL THE DATA ANALYSIS.

~$4500.00

Please remit payment to me or forward bill to Ferrari and I'll get
started!

Rominger was handing over 10% of his salary at a time when he was the
world's #1 ranked rider. Other clients are probably paying something
similar. I don't believe cost is the barrier you think it is.

Bob Schwartz

Bob, have you done any human performance research? I can tell you
that you haven't any idea how little money there is, because nobody
give a hoot (at least in the U.S.). Do you honestly think we just sit
around in our labs coming up with the least applicable studies because
its fun? Besides, I didn't say it was a problem for them, its a
problem for us scientists; you know, the guys Ferrari is criticizing.
I should also add that Dr. Ferrari has no human subjects restraints
placed on him either. Anything the scientific community does must
pass some Board's approval. A pro team has none of these constraints.
Regarding Warren's Mapei comment, I can say (from second hand
knowledge) that what they were doing was either not well controlled,
or the sample size was far to small to make actual statistical
assessments.

I would, however, contend that most riders would be reluctant to make
major changes.

CH

Bob Schwartz wrote in message ...
chris wrote:
I'll leave out much of detail here, and just touch on the cost and
logistics of looking at data collection for an 8 day stage race. Nor
will I include payment for services rendered.

Pre and post (simple) lactate testing (5 riders) - $300
power meters for all (assuming they'll all ride a power tap & you get
a deal on them) - $2500
Hct samples (~80 samples) - $30
Airfare to get your personnel there - $600
Accommodations (with luck)- $900
Plus a bunch of stuff I missed and a boat load of time plus finding
riders to do this...THEN ALL THE DATA ANALYSIS.

~$4500.00

Please remit payment to me or forward bill to Ferrari and I'll get
started!

Rominger was handing over 10% of his salary at a time when he was the
world's #1 ranked rider. Other clients are probably paying something
similar. I don't believe cost is the barrier you think it is.

Bob Schwartz