"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

Robert Chung wrote:
Simon Brooke wrote:

So George II isn't your current king?

http://www.independent.co.uk/incomin...a&pageNumber=1

At least no joke about King George \/\/ !

Joseph

Robert Chung wrote:
wrote:
There is certainly a great degree of social mobility [in Europe],
but not on the scale found in the US.

This does not appear to be supported by the data. There are many ways to
measure social or economic mobility (short-term, long-term, perdurance,
group transition probabilities, and so on), but by most of them the US
ranks either near the middle or below the middle compared to European
countries.


Please stop destroying the american dream(sic). It saves you a host of
social welfare ...

a écrit :
Simon Brooke wrote:

in message .com,
') wrote:


(Quick, who can name the EU member states off
the top of their heads?)

Off the top of my head:

Austria (Euro zone)
Belgium (Euro zone)
France (Euro zone)
Germany (Euro zone)
Greece (Euro zone)
Holland (Euro zone)
Italy (Euro zone)
Luxembourg (Euro zone)
Portugal (Euro zone)
Republic of Ireland (Euro zone)
Spain (Euro zone)
...
Denmark (Krone)
Finland (Euro zone)
Sweden (Krona)
United Kingdom (Pound Sterling)
...
Czech Republic (Euro zone)
Estonia (?)
Hungary (?)
Latvia (?)
Lithuania (?)
Poland (Euro zone)
Slovakia (Euro zone)
... and next:
Roumania
Slovenia
... and after that:
- United Kingdom, +Scotland

[Quick check]

H'mmm... Slovenia's in already, Bulgaria's on the accession list. Still,
I think that's not a bad stab.


Outstanding! That puts you into the 99.999% percentile for sure.
As you like outside the EU, I am not surprised you think like that.

This
thread has taken a few turns, with the sometimes related issues of
wealth, income mobility, and class. I think class has a stronger tie
than any national or ethnic ties. In other words someone like you (a
knowledge class person at the least) has more in common with someone
like Sandy in France,
Take it slowly, there ! While I have lived a comfortable existence,
after having graduated from the slums, where I was raised, I don't lack
the basis to identify with those who have less, materially. I think the
class/wealth dichotomy in society is less perceptible by those who have
not made the trip either up or down the ladder, but hovered within a
narrow band. Again, viewpoints that don't converge, but I make no
apologies.

or even like minded folks in California than you
do with a random person at your local market.

Joseph

Simon Brooke wrote:
in message , steve
') wrote:

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the
US is famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that
class immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially
after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously
disagrees..and he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me
(a "dumbass", no doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

It depends what you mean by social mobility, but no, in Europe (like the
US) there is little real class mobility. Old money is old money the
world over, and people with old money stick together. They went to
the 'right' schools and the 'right' universities, have the 'right'
contacts and relations, marry the 'right' people.

In Europe this universal truth is slightly gilded by titles which the
powerful have, over the centuries, given themselves, but it doesn't
really make any difference. You ain't goin' to marry a Rockefeller, and
if you go to court against a Rockefeller, you're going to lose. The fact
that he doesn't call himself 'Lord Rockefeller' is immaterial.


I read a book somewhere that supported the thesis that the modern
society has replaced the rigid aristocratic or clerical class structure
with something more intangible. They looked at the family structures of
top level managers and top polititians. Lo and behold, you apparently
can see quite a high relationship between the father (in most cases)
being a top level manager or politician, and the son doing the same.

There was also something about "codes", which is used by members of this
class to assess if they are facing a "peer".
For instance and as a simple example, how you interact in surroundings
like golf clubs etc. If you can say you started playing golf with 10,
it's a strong code. Other codes are much less clear-cut, and it's the
overall picture that counts.

Ultimately, I think that yes, the mobility on the base of the society is
one important data point, but if we want to compare our society to
historic societies, it might be worth to see if we can indeed find an
analogon to what was aristocracy in that time. The upper 5%.

Sandy wrote:
a écrit :
Simon Brooke wrote:

in message .com,
') wrote:


(Quick, who can name the EU member states off
the top of their heads?)

Off the top of my head:

Austria (Euro zone)
Belgium (Euro zone)
France (Euro zone)
Germany (Euro zone)
Greece (Euro zone)
Holland (Euro zone)
Italy (Euro zone)
Luxembourg (Euro zone)
Portugal (Euro zone)
Republic of Ireland (Euro zone)
Spain (Euro zone)
...
Denmark (Krone)
Finland (Euro zone)
Sweden (Krona)
United Kingdom (Pound Sterling)
...
Czech Republic (Euro zone)
Estonia (?)
Hungary (?)
Latvia (?)
Lithuania (?)
Poland (Euro zone)
Slovakia (Euro zone)
... and next:
Roumania
Slovenia
... and after that:
- United Kingdom, +Scotland

[Quick check]

H'mmm... Slovenia's in already, Bulgaria's on the accession list. Still,
I think that's not a bad stab.


Outstanding! That puts you into the 99.999% percentile for sure.
As you like outside the EU, I am not surprised you think like that.

How many random people in France, the UK, or any other EU country could
do so well as he did off the top of their heads? I do think he is in
the 99.999th percentile.

This
thread has taken a few turns, with the sometimes related issues of
wealth, income mobility, and class. I think class has a stronger tie
than any national or ethnic ties. In other words someone like you (a
knowledge class person at the least) has more in common with someone
like Sandy in France,
Take it slowly, there ! While I have lived a comfortable existence,
after having graduated from the slums, where I was raised, I don't lack
the basis to identify with those who have less, materially. I think the
class/wealth dichotomy in society is less perceptible by those who have
not made the trip either up or down the ladder, but hovered within a
narrow band. Again, viewpoints that don't converge, but I make no
apologies.

I didn't mean to imply at all that you did not have an adequate
understanding of others. I was just musing about how certain common
ground between people is more common across borders than across the
street sometimes. I agree that making the trip you describe gives one a
wider perspective. I grew up in Brooklyn which in many ways was
probably similar to some French slums, and I have seen skid-row and
also been to parties where there were Picassos on the wall. It is my
observations of people in these different circumstances that has formed
my opinions. I suppose I was not clear with my comment, but it was in
no way meant to be negative, or to suggest you don't know what you are
talking about or anything like that.

Joseph

in message . com,
') wrote:

Simon Brooke wrote:
H'mmm... Slovenia's in already, Bulgaria's on the accession list.
Still, I think that's not a bad stab.

Outstanding! That puts you into the 99.999% percentile for sure. This
thread has taken a few turns, with the sometimes related issues of
wealth, income mobility, and class. I think class has a stronger tie
than any national or ethnic ties. In other words someone like you (a
knowledge class person at the least) has more in common with someone
like Sandy in France, or even like minded folks in California than you
do with a random person at your local market.

I have, I'm sure, quite a lot in common with Sandy and even a remarkable
amount in common with Tom Kunich (down to keeping part of the third
commercial computer ever built in my dining room). But first of all I'm
Scots, from Auchencairn in Galloway (where I still live). My close
friends are farm-workers, tradesmen, artisans, small shopkeepers. A good
few of them I've known since childhood.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Our modern industrial economy takes a mountain covered with trees,
;; lakes, running streams and transforms it into a mountain of junk,
;; garbage, slime pits, and debris. -- Edward Abbey

On 18 Aug 2006 23:12:33 -0700, wrote:

Of all the countries in Europe, only a few have significant Colonial
histories.

England
Holland
Belgium
France
Portugal
Spain
Italy
Russia

The only big time player in Western Europe that is not on the list is
Germany.

On 18 Aug 2006 23:12:33 -0700, wrote:

And this is interesting because these central and southern American
immigrants are themselves to a degree immigrants at least partially
from Europe (Mestizo), few are 100% native judging by appearances.

Joseph

Whatever Spanish blood exists in Mexico and Central America has, for
the most part, has been well diluted with the native population. An
interesting dynamic in these countries is that having more Spanish
blood gives you higher status.

On 18 Aug 2006 22:46:32 -0700, "
wrote:

The Census doesn't make a distinction between illegal and legal
non-citizen immigrants. I assume this is at least partly so they can
get a fair sampling by surveying households w/o coming across
as the immigration police.

There's also a problem with compliance. Illegal aliens are not going
to fill out a census form. They try to adjust for this, but that
often becomes a political issue.

The Census Bureau basically hands out surveys and the data represents
the people who responded. There's also no grantee that the responses
are all true. People lie on census forms. There's no doubt that he
Census Bureau knows what they're doing and have good methodology.
However, it is still survey data which has basic limitations. It is
also a Government agency and is influenced by politics.

On 18 Aug 2006 22:46:32 -0700, "
wrote:

Most illegal aliens in the US have jobs, often several.


This is from a study conducted by the Pew Hispanic Center

The study, "The Economic Transition to America," is part of a series
of reports culled from a survey of more than 4,000 Mexican nationals
at consulate offices in Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Atlanta,
Dallas and Fresno, Calif., between July 2004 and January 2005.

"After arriving in the United States, 82 percent of the illegal
immigrants lived with relatives. "The strong family ties, and the
social network they comprise, are clearly important to the economic
assimilation of respondents," the study stated.

Unemployment is a fact of life in the transition from Mexico. A high
percentage, 38, said they were unemployed for at least a month in the
previous year. Women in particular, 48 percent, had trouble finding
work, and 40 percent of people without a high-school education were
jobless for a significant period.

Forty-five percent eventually found jobs by "talking with people" in
the United States, the study said. Others visited job sites, talked to
people in Mexico or consulted want ads in U.S. newspapers."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...120601491.html