"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

wrote:

Not at all. The only people I know of who emigrated were either dirt
poor, starving, or living in a dangerous police-state.

If they were living in a dangerous police-state I agree their
opportunities would be better in the US but then their experience wouldn't
be generalizable to your global statement that compared Europe with the
US. Those who didn't come from police-states probably weren't truly dirt
poor since they had to get across the Atlantic -- they're not like Central
Americans who can walk or hop a freight train. My great-grandparents may
have been peasants but they still needed enough capital to cross the
Pacific and that capital certainly put them above the bottom quarter in
wealth distribution at the time.

I live in the sticks! No "lie-berries" here!

Google should work even in the sticks. One of the things that should be
quickly apparent is that Americans and Europeans differ more in their view
of the causes of poverty and the degree of income mobility than in the
reality. Most Americans think they live in a meritocratic land of
opportunity with high income mobility. Roughly two-thirds of Americans
think that the poor are poor because they are lazy; roughly one-third of
Europeans think that way. Roughly two-thirds of Europeans think the poor
are trapped in poverty; roughly one-third of American think that way. The
reality is that, depending on the measure you're looking at, the
differences in income mobility aren't that great: the US is either smack
dab in the middle or slightly below the average compared to European
countries (in no measure is it quantumly better). European society isn't
ossified, and American society isn't de novo.

in message . com,
') wrote:

Race is a factor in the "New World" in a way that it isn't in Europe
because Europe is still so homogeneous. You want to start seeing some
uncomfortable race issues, look at South American soap operas then look
at the people on the streets there. Europeans have the luxury of having
a different attitude about race because it is someting they just don't
have to deal with.

Which planet was it that you said you lived on?

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; If you're doing this for fun, do what seems fun. If you're
;; doing it for money, stop now.
;; Rainer Deyke

in message . net, Tom
Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:

"Scott Johnson" wrote in message
...
wrote
And you don't have to win lotto to become rich. Running a good pizza
restaurant or plumbing company can do the trick.

Something the people with a masters in 14th Century Eastern European
Library Systems who work at THAT person's pizza place will never
grasp.

My great grandmother starved to death in Europe and today I live in a
nice house that I own in a nice neighborhood and have everything I
want. I own my own car, have no bills outside of the utilities and such
and a good deal of money in the bank.

My grandfather nearly starved to death in Texas, and today I live in a
comfortable 250 year old house that I own in a nice village in Scotland,
with my yacht moored a mile away. I own my own car, have no bills
outside the utilities, and have some money in the bank.

So what, exactly?

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; It appears that /dev/null is a conforming XSL processor.

On 17 Aug 2006 22:17:49 -0700, "Ernst Blofeld"
wrote:

Howard Kveck wrote:
Macaca! Allen is either an ignorant bigot (was a neo-confederate in high school,
you know) or a clever one - using the clever code words so the rest of the bigots
can tell he's down with them.

It was so coded no one knew what the **** he was talking about until
it was explained to them.

Allen probably knew what the implictions of the word were, but it's
highly unlikely that it was calculated to appeal to the audience. It
went straight over their heads.

Nah, even if he'd called the guy "Jimmy" it'd have been insulting in
terms of Allen's tone of voice. Which is OK in a political campaign.
But the "welcome to America" part was anti-immmigrant or perhaps
racist.

But perhaps the funniest thing is that Sridarth was born in Virginia
whereas Allen was not.

JT


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"Simon Brooke" wrote in message
...
in message . net, Tom
Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:

"Scott Johnson" wrote in message
...
wrote
And you don't have to win lotto to become rich. Running a good pizza
restaurant or plumbing company can do the trick.

Something the people with a masters in 14th Century Eastern European
Library Systems who work at THAT person's pizza place will never
grasp.

My great grandmother starved to death in Europe and today I live in a
nice house that I own in a nice neighborhood and have everything I
want. I own my own car, have no bills outside of the utilities and such
and a good deal of money in the bank.

My grandfather nearly starved to death in Texas, and today I live in a
comfortable 250 year old house that I own in a nice village in Scotland,
with my yacht moored a mile away. I own my own car, have no bills
outside the utilities, and have some money in the bank.

So what, exactly?

POM

Tom Kunich wrote:
My great grandmother starved to death in Europe and today I live in a
nice house that I own in a nice neighborhood and have everything I
want. I own my own car, have no bills outside of the utilities and such
and a good deal of money in the bank.

Simon Brooke wrote:
My grandfather nearly starved to death in Texas, and today I live in a
comfortable 250 year old house that I own in a nice village in Scotland,
with my yacht moored a mile away. I own my own car, have no bills
outside the utilities, and have some money in the bank.

So what, exactly?

Do you have a garage full of 2nd hand bikes ?

in message .com,
') wrote:

entire field of income and mobility focuses on "what keeps the poor
down" and there are many, many books and journals available at your
nearest university library.

I live in the sticks! No "lie-berries" here!

I live in the sticks (population density 0.25 persons/hectare = 65
persons per square mile). I have two libraries within eight miles, three
within twelve miles, five within twenty-one miles. All free. But then,
of course, I'm in Europe.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Age equals angst multiplied by the speed of fright squared.
;; the Worlock

in message , Donald
Munro ') wrote:

Tom Kunich wrote:
My great grandmother starved to death in Europe and today I live in a
nice house that I own in a nice neighborhood and have everything I
want. I own my own car, have no bills outside of the utilities and
such and a good deal of money in the bank.

Simon Brooke wrote:
My grandfather nearly starved to death in Texas, and today I live in a
comfortable 250 year old house that I own in a nice village in
Scotland, with my yacht moored a mile away. I own my own car, have no
bills outside the utilities, and have some money in the bank.

So what, exactly?

Do you have a garage full of 2nd hand bikes ?

No, I bought them all (except the Mantra) new.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

((DoctorWho)ChristopherEccleston).act();
uk.co.bbc.TypecastException: actor does not want to be typecast.
[adapted from autofile on /., 31/03/05]

Simon Brooke wrote:
in message .com,
') wrote:

As for poverty in th eUS, squalor does not equal poverty. Some poor
run-down neigborhoods you may have seen house people with a level of
comfort and income that would surprise you. Cars, DVD players,
computers, microwave ovens, all the modern conveniences you can buy.

Compare Seattle with Kuala Lumpur, both cities I know a little. In
Seattle, miles and miles and miles and miles of trailer parks, people
living in little boxes made of high density fibreboard and aluminium
sheet, in a climate with very high rainfall and often very cold.
Electric cables strung about any old how on crooked, leaning poles which
would make any European power engineer wince. Sure, the people in those
fibreboard boxes have all sorts of consumer 'durables', where durables
means things which will be obsolete in five years. Sure, these people
mostly have cars, but given the sheer size of the sprawl and the quality
of the transportation they pretty much have to. Seattle, as far as I can
see, is 5% quality urban space and 95% slum.

In KL, miles and miles of moderate-rise, mainly well built concrete and
blockwork flats. Equally small, or perhaps even a bit smaller, but much
better built. Technical infrastructure of a quality which embarrasses
Europeans, much less Americans. Inside, the same sorts of consumer
durables, rather more up-to-date. These people mostly don't have cars,
they have motor scooters - but given the much greater density of the
place and the much better public transport system that's all they need.
I'm not saying KL doesn't have slums, but nothing like the same scale.

Yes, Seattle has its super-rich. So does KL. For the majority of it's
inhabitants, it appears to the outside observer that KL provides a much
better physical and material quality of life than Seattle. And in KL you
do not see the abject poor you do in Seattle.

The thing about the United States is that few of its residents know very
much about anywhere else. They believe the myths of America, and they
believe other places are worse. But... it ain't necessarily so.


I agree that huge portions of the world are much better off than lots
of people assume. I only meant to say that the kind of place you
describe in Seattle might look like it was a shanty-town to someone
used to a different sort of squalor. And someone might assume from the
run-down nature of the area that the people there lived in poverty.
They don't. They live in run down trailers, but that does not equal
poverty.

Joseph

Simon Brooke a écrit :
in message . com,
') wrote:


Race is a factor in the "New World" in a way that it isn't in Europe
because Europe is still so homogeneous. You want to start seeing some
uncomfortable race issues, look at South American soap operas then look
at the people on the streets there. Europeans have the luxury of having
a different attitude about race because it is someting they just don't
have to deal with.


Which planet was it that you said you lived on?


He said it with the monochromatic bliss that comes from not living in
France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, Spain, Portugal or Holland. Maybe even
the outer reaches of your island kingdom.