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Steel frames and le Tour



 
 
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  #601  
Old July 23rd 08, 03:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.racing
Scott
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Posts: 1,859
Default OT Wine

On Jul 22, 10:37*pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Scott Hendricks wrote:

I like that wine that comes in a box!


Wine should always be sold with a brown paper bag.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"People who had no mercy will find none." - Anon.


Well, d'uh... who's the master of the intuitively obvious???

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  #602  
Old August 29th 08, 08:42 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected][_2_]
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Posts: 214
Default Steel frames and le Tour

On Jul 22, 3:35*pm, Scott wrote:
On Jul 22, 1:43*am, wrote:





On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:34:25 -0700 (PDT), Scott


wrote:
On Jul 20, 1:58*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:14:25 -0700 (PDT), "


wrote:
On Jul 19, 10:15*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 20:56:40 -0700, Howard Kveck


wrote:
In article ,
wrote:


On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 01:04:33 -0700, Howard Kveck
wrote:


In article ,


On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:30:32 -0700, Howard Kveck
wrote:


In article ,
wrote:


The rest of the "heavier" feeling was probably due to all the extra
attention that I paid (does it feel heavier? lighter? how does it
normally feel?), plus the unavoidable knowledge that there were
_seven_ whole pounds sitting right there in plain sight whenever I
looked down at the speedometer.


* One point I haven't seen made,Carl: this isn't exactly a blind test,
is it? If you really wanted to seriously test this, I think you'd have
to devise a way to do it so you were unaware of when the bike had the
extra weight on it when you went out on the road.


DearHoward,


Here's the relevant post:


* No,Carl, you state in your above post "the unavoidable knowledge that
there were _seven_ whole pounds sitting right there in plain sight." That
pretty much defines it as *not* a blind test.


DearHoward,


Er, where did I argue with you?


The relevant post that I quoted in full makes it plain as sin that it
wasn't a blind test.


* The point was that doing a blind test is the proper scientific way. Doing it so
you know the condition of the bike ("I can see the extra weight") makes the results
of minimal value.


For fun, tell us how you would "seriously test" for the speed and
acceleration effects of a 7-lb bicycle weight increase and what
blinding procedures you'd use.


* I'd think it would be obvious that you need to have a bike with a package on it
that is enclosed. You have someone other than yourself either fill the package with
seven pounds or not fill it. Then you ride it, not knowing the condition (standard
weight or seven extra pounds).


DearHoward,


The rider would probably notice the extra weight if he tips the
familiar bike slightly sideways or just rolls it out the garage, so we
have to be awfully careful to get him to sit on it.


If he stood up, he might well notice the extra weight as the bike
tipped from side to side.


On a reasonable paved road, he might notice the vibration damping of
the extra 7 pounds.


Of course, you'd have to go to a lot of trouble to have someone else
insert an extra 7 pounds on a random basis. The steel rods were handy,
exactly the right weight, and didn't involve awkward wind drag
questions or boxes.


In any case, blind testing would be far more trouble than it's worth.


In Newton's world we don't need a blind test to figure out the effect
on acceleration or cruising speed when we add 7 pounds to a bicycle
and rider of known mass--it's so trivial that it will be lost in the
ordinary real-road variations of wind and rider power.


Anyone can log times for a 15 mile ride for a week and see how much
the time varies.


Incidentally, it was John Tomlinson who kept demanding that I add the
weight, apparently unable to understand how little difference it would
make. He wanted it added for a year, an even less rigorous test. After
all, my power output next year is likely to be lower, given my age.


So far, no one has wondered out loud what the obvious effect of paying
more attention would be and whether it would be likely to outweigh
(sorry, couldn't resist it) the effect of a 4% weight increase.


Cheers,


CarlFogel


Carl*(Dear?)


I think I know what the problem is. I have a similar problem with
wine. To me, if the wine doesn't taste like pure alcohol, or like
vinegar, I cannot distinguish between a $15 bottle of wine and a $150
bottle of wine. I am merely casual wine drinker and will never be a
pro wine taster.


With bicycles, it is the same. Maybe we are casual cyclists that
cannot distinguish between materials or weighs. JT and jb are more
likely the professional sort that have their bodies so fine tuned to
bicycles as wine taster have their tongues tuned for wine. TDF riders,
being pros, are even more sensitive to this subtle differences being
able to distinguish bb types, composition of chainstays, seatstays,
integrated headsets, carbon vs alloy cranks, *and even age of the
bicycle.


So, even though I can down a bottle of wine like the more
sophisticated wine taster, and ride a fairly good distance at good
speed like some of the sensitive cycling types, I certainly have not
developed the subtle sense necessary to distinguish the fruity
flavors, the oak, the chocolate, the age, the carbon seatstays, the
oversize bb, the carbon brifters, etc.


So, maybe you and I are of the less sophisticated kind for whom
aromatherapy will not work for recovery. Not sure if this is an
advantage or a disadvantage. Advantage wise, I am happy with my
inexpensive bikes and with my $10-$15 bottles of wine. However, maybe
I am not truly enjoying some of the subtleties of life.


(XOXOXO?)


Andres


DearAndres,


Actually, "sophisticated" wine tasters may be just as happy as you,
but they're mostly fooling themselves. The same is probably true for
many of our more indignant posters, who believe (in good faith) that
their bicycling shorts can detect speed and acceleration differences
in the range of ~2%.


Winetastinglends itself to much easier testing than adding weight to
bicycles. (Luckily, Newton can tell us what happens with the weights,
so it's no big deal in the bicycle world.)


Wine-tastingclaims have never survived real testing:


I guess you're not familiar with the test one undergoes to achieve
Master Sommelier status?


DearBret,


"The Court of Master Sommeliers[1] is the most internationally
recognized organization and certifies professional sommeliers. As of
2008 there are fewer than 160 people in the world who have attained
the designation of Master Sommelier. This is up from 100 in 2000."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sommelier


If you've taken the test, you can tell us more. Black glasses and
blindfolds?


If not, you may still have an interesting link that goes into details
of how blind this test is:


"Thetastingexamination is scored on the candidate's verbal abilities
in clearly and accurately describing six different wines. Within
twenty-five minutes he or she must: "


"Identify, where appropriate, grape varieties, country of origin,
district of origin and vintages of the wines tasted."
*http://www.mastersommeliers.org/exam/diploma


Kind of vague, isn't it? Thetastingexamination is "scored", but
there's nothing about how high a score is passing.


Incidentally, Part 1 of the master sommelier examination is titled
"Restaurant services and salesmanship"--it's far more detailed than
thetastingsection, which was quoted in its entirety.


If you have a case in which _any_ group of a dozen wine experts
reproduced their results in blind testing the next day with the same
wines, you have data for a doctoral dissertation.


Cheers,


CarlFogel


Well, as I happen to know a Master Sommelier (who by chance happens to
be a former bike racer) who lives in Boulder, maybe I'll ask him what
the test is really all about. *It'll give me an excuse to visit his
restaurant, as if I needed one.

What I don't have, and probably can't get for at least a couple of
months, is a reservation. *I suppose I could just email him, but I'd
rather go have dinner.


Dear Scott,

It turns out that email is sufficient for "Wine Spectator"--in fact,
sometimes nothing but email is even possible!

http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/212/1/#i4

:-)

Bon appetit!

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 




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