Training or Plain Riding?

In article ,
Amit Ghosh wrote:

On Dec 10, 6:16*am, John Forrest Tomlinson

Yeah. One easy way for bike racing to stay more reasonable in pricing
would be to require rims be made of metal and not more than 2cm deep
or something.

dumbasses howard and JT ,

i think the rules make it so that the sport is fair already.

there's nothing wrong with people that want to spend $10,000 on a bike
or discuss the merits of different spoke counts all day, but it's a
hobby which has nothing to do with bike racing.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Anyway, I don't really think having claiming rules or
limiting equipment is worth the trouble, since I don't have any experience with
riders sniveling that they didn't win because another rider had some equipment they
want (well, TTs are an exception to this). Yeah, they'll make excuses but I haven't
heard equipment being one, unless it was about a bit that broke or was out of
adjustment ("My brakes were dragging."). For example, in the hill climb series I was
just helping at, no one was complaining that the guys in first and second overall
were there because they had really nice bikes. Everyone knew those guys were there
because they're faster and worked harder to get there than everyone else.

--
tanx,
Howard

Caught playing safe
It's a bored game

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

On Dec 10, 7:05*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
" wrote in message

This is a misunderstanding of the difference between
yield failures and fatigue failures, and the relative
danger of each in bicycle applications.

Maybe you could point out where I mentioned fatigue failures?

You didn't mention fatigue failures. That was
the problem.

There are basically two kinds of bike part failures:

1. I crashed and my fork/frame/bars/sense of dignity broke.

2. My crank/pedal/bars/stem/fork broke when I
hit a pothole/was JRA, causing me to crash.

Type 1 bends and breaks forks and other parts, yielding
them plastically. However, the rider is hurt by the crash,
not the broken part. If you get hit hard enough to
suddenly break a bike part, you're going down hard anyway.

Type 2 happens due to fatigue failures not impact forces.
Type 2 failures are the ones where a person can get hurt
due to a design or manufacturing defect, or simply a
part that has been used longer than it should have.

You're moaning about Type 1 failures when you
should be worried about Type 2 failures.

Ben

On Dec 4, 7:57*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
In a race you need the latest equipment. Campy or Shimano top of the line
stuff, carbon fiber bikes, saddles without padding etc.

The problem is that people who don't race buy this stuff because they think
it's the "best" instead of "appropriate for racing".

Today we're seeing people riding around on the streets on equipment that
barely has a working life of a year and they don't know that.

Let's not mention the actual name of a major wheel manufacturer whose wheel
bearings are good for perhaps 10,000 miles and then need replacing. In fact
they can get so loose that the rocking of the axle can cause the freehub to
slip. Worst case you could destroy the freehub.

I can't tell you how many carbon hinged rear derailers I've seen with broken
pieces. And these aren't cheap. You're paying a small fortune to save 12
grams on a part that will never see a race for most people.

Mind you, Campagnolo and Shimano make components that are plenty reliable
and long lived. The top of the line stuff is designed to meet other
criteria. They are building them for the lightest possible weight now and
that means that they had to make decisions about product lifespan. Since
these parts are designed to be used by racers and are replaced, at the far
end, every year it means that you can't expect the best parts to have a
lifespan compatible with normal bicycle use.

It is true that most bicyclists who buy the most expensive stuff generally
don't ride all that much. And since they could afford the stuff in the first
place it isn't as if they can't afford to replace it when it gets broken.

But be aware that now it isn't just the components that are failing. Now
entire wheels, forks and frames are failing catastrophically and when they
do you're going down and it might be really hard.

Personally I'm six months into recovery from a failed front fork (caused by
a foot turned loose by a failed new fangled pedal). The foot could never
have gotten into the spokes of an older 32 spoke or more wheel but went
right in that expensive low spoke count wheel.

Last year a medium sized dog ran in front of a guy with whom I was riding..
The dog was essentially uninjured. The steering head broke off the bike and
my friend went head first into the asphalt. He broke his neck and for a long
hour I supposed he'd be dying. He survived and rides today. But if he was
riding a steel bike with a steel fork he wouldn't have crashed like that.

Here's the bottom line - if you're racing go ahead and use the lightest
stuff available. If you're training or just out on a ride maybe you ought to
be using stuff that you can rely upon.

The consumers of high end racing bikes seem to show little concern for
price in relation to the return they are getting in terms of weight,
durability and serviceability etc. I used to work in shop for many
years and I am very surprised that the consumer have not shown more
resistance to the astronomical prices. Shimano recently announced
their new Durace DL electronic shifting system and I read somewhere
that it will sell for $4000. Now mind you that the electronic derailur
is water resistant not waterproof. It's hard to imagine, but there
occasions where the roads do flood and you don't have any option to
ride through this. I have seen this happen on 3 or 4 occasions. So the
question is if you want spend thousands of dollars on shifting system
that could fail...?

Composites have not shown little or decrease in failures. Carbon fiber
is still prone to delamination and sudden failure. Reynolds 953 tubing
is the only frame material that has shown a substantial strength
weight increase and weight decrease. The only carbon fiber frame that
I would consider is one that has a 25 year or lifetime warranty. I
ride a 47.5 cm frame so Calfee is about the only option.

One problem is today is that the consumers are now well informed about
the durability of composites. Consumers are not aware how a little
damage to composite can cause sudden failure or injury. Dealers and
the industry need to show greater responsibility in this area. I am
kind of surprised that the lawyers have not gone after more bike
comapnies.

The UCI council on professional cycling instituted min weight
standards for bikes to increase the riders safety. The UCI should
have instituted their own testing standards. The consumer product
safety commission has their own testing tests for bikes.

On Dec 5, 11:58*am, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
"Doug Smith" wrote in message

news:2jd_k.2663$yK5.1853@edtnps82...

Tom Kunich wrote:

Let's not mention the actual name of a major wheel manufacturer whose
wheel bearings are good for perhaps 10,000 miles and then need replacing.
In fact they can get so loose that the rocking of the axle can cause the
freehub to slip. Worst case you could destroy the freehub.

What is the wheel manufacturer that you were referring to?

Notice the first line? I'm not sure that it makes a lot of sense naming the
wheel manufacturer since most off the specialty wheel manufacturers are
using exactly the same replicable bearings.

What's more, there's always the (distant) chance that my friend and myself
were an exception with the bearing failures almost exactly at the same
mileage.

Shouldn't we complain a lot more over the fact that you can buy VERY
expensive Shimano shifters that wear out and can't be repaired? This is
completely outrageous. There are still bikes riding around with the original
8-speed levers but the 9 and 10 speed stuff is wearing out rapidly and is
super expensive to replace.

Shimano is notorious for unserviceable their products are. This is one
reason why I refuse to buy their products.

On Dec 10, 7:24*am, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
"Fred Fredburger" wrote in message

...


If instead of using those bearings as an example, I wonder whether more
people would have agreed with you if you'd chosen tires.

The fact is that although I ride a lot I shouldn't wear out wheel bearings
in two years. And I've done this with three different specialty hubs. Is it
strange that I haven't done that with Campy or Shimano hubs?

If you are using precision bearing hubs than I am not surprised. The
big problem most precision bearing hubs is that they are not designed
to take a side load. The other basic problem is that they are not
adjustable. Mavic is the only hub that has dust cap and has adjustable
bearings. The dust caps reduce side load.

As for Shimano and Campy I am assuming that you are servicing them on
a regular basis.

" wrote in message
...

I suggest you read postings from hizark21. Perhaps it would give you some
idea of the proper way to respond in a conversation.

No need to tell me what I'm thinking, I can handle that all by myself.

On Dec 9, 7:11*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
"Carl Sundquist" wrote in message

news
Who knows how many other riders would like to make tweaks to their
equipment, but know that they just have to ride what the team gives them?

Carl, let's remember that most riders aren't capable of making intelligent
decisions so it is probably best that they don't have a say in equipment.

The other thing to remember is that their equipment is supplied to
them so they don't care unless it fails or malfunctions while riding.
Most riders do not have a good understanding about the frames parts
and the materials. The reason is because the industry has not done job
of educating them. Most magazines today give very info on well a
product holds up and how to service it. They are more concerned with
the latest and greatest and well it shifts possibly.

In article ,
"Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

" wrote in message
...

I suggest you read postings from hizark21. Perhaps it would give you some
idea of the proper way to respond in a conversation.

Incoherently, but vaguely in line with what you (incorrectly) think?

No need to tell me what I'm thinking, I can handle that all by myself.

Apparently not.

--
tanx,
Howard

Caught playing safe
It's a bored game

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

On Dec 10, 1:32*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
"Bill C" wrote in message

...



If I can't kill 'em their unkillable and we, me and our great local
shop, have settled into mavic open pros or ma 40s, 32 spokes, with
ultegra hubs and I was able to ride those for years here on the frost
heaved, potholed roads, at an obscene weight for anything on a
bicycle, and they are still holding up, couple of sets got used by the
kids for cross too.
Not sure most shops are going to push that kind of combo since it's
not "sexy", just durable, reliable, and a solid value.

I never had any problems with such a set-up either. But I fell for the
specialty wheel idea pretty hard and I have almost a dozen sets of them. And
most of those have the undersized bearings pioneered by American Classic.
They roll nicely and of course the hubs are all very light but they do wear
out rather rapidly under a 200 lber.

I have not looked at American classic in years. Personally I prefer
the older Mavic hubs. It's really to bad that Mavic quit making hubs.
Still buy them on ebay when I can find them

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 21:32:21 -0600, Carl Sundquist
wrote:

Tom Kunich wrote:
"Carl Sundquist" wrote in message
news Who knows how many other riders would like to make tweaks to their
equipment, but know that they just have to ride what the team gives them?
Carl, let's remember that most riders aren't capable of making
intelligent decisions so it is probably best that they don't have a say
in equipment.

Both Shaun Wallace, who admittedly has an engineering degree, and Harvey
Nitz have built their own carbon frames (and that was roughly 15 years
ago). Nitz helped Serotta design the headset used on the '84 pursuit
bikes. These guys are not like bimbo singer/actor/actresses who claim to
design signature fragrances or clothes. Nitz was always tweaking his
bikes. Some riders have valuable, thoughtful suggestions and innovations
and sometimes (like you suggest) they simply have too much free time on
their hands.

Greg LeMond (with aero bars) and Bernard Hinault (with pedals), while
not capable of making their own stuff, were clearly "into" the
technology.

I can't recall if Hinault was involved with the designing of the pedal
or just one of the first to use/endorse them. I don't think Lemond had
much influence on the designing of aerobars.