Tyler won't forget all you doubters...

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

Dumbass -

If the test is that bad, why did he fail 3 out of 3 and no one else
except his teamate got even 1 positive?

thanks,

K. Gringioni.


Did all the samples get tested for homologous blood transfusion or only
those that looked "suspicious" for some reason?

On 11/15/2004 10:47 AM, in article
.net, "B. Lafferty"
wrote:


"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message
oups.com...

B. Lafferty wrote:

Tyler, this is not the best way to build good will for the bike shop
you'll
be opening in Marblehead.



Dumbass -

lol.

Actually, I'll bet his bike shop would do OK. There's that diehard
contingent that believes that he's innocent because he's a nice guy.
K. Gringioni.


After five years he'd be scraping to make a decent living like all the other
guys in the retail side of the industry.


Yeah ... Ron Kiefel is really hurting for cash ...


--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [foreword] slash

On 11/15/2004 10:47 AM, in article
.net, "B. Lafferty"
wrote:


"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message
oups.com...

B. Lafferty wrote:

Tyler, this is not the best way to build good will for the bike shop
you'll
be opening in Marblehead.



Dumbass -

lol.

Actually, I'll bet his bike shop would do OK. There's that diehard
contingent that believes that he's innocent because he's a nice guy.
K. Gringioni.


After five years he'd be scraping to make a decent living like all the other
guys in the retail side of the industry.


Yeah ... Ron Kiefel is really hurting for cash ...


--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [foreword] slash

"Steven L. Sheffield" wrote in message
...
On 11/15/2004 10:47 AM, in article
.net, "B. Lafferty"
wrote:


"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message
oups.com...

B. Lafferty wrote:

Tyler, this is not the best way to build good will for the bike shop
you'll
be opening in Marblehead.



Dumbass -

lol.

Actually, I'll bet his bike shop would do OK. There's that diehard
contingent that believes that he's innocent because he's a nice guy.
K. Gringioni.


After five years he'd be scraping to make a decent living like all the
other
guys in the retail side of the industry.


Yeah ... Ron Kiefel is really hurting for cash ...

There are exceptions. Keifel is in a very good location and the shop has
been there for a long time. He father started it, IIRC. Most specialty
bicycle retailers are not getting rich quick. It's truly a labor of love.

"Steven L. Sheffield" wrote in message
...
On 11/15/2004 10:47 AM, in article
.net, "B. Lafferty"
wrote:


"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message
oups.com...

B. Lafferty wrote:

Tyler, this is not the best way to build good will for the bike shop
you'll
be opening in Marblehead.



Dumbass -

lol.

Actually, I'll bet his bike shop would do OK. There's that diehard
contingent that believes that he's innocent because he's a nice guy.
K. Gringioni.


After five years he'd be scraping to make a decent living like all the
other
guys in the retail side of the industry.


Yeah ... Ron Kiefel is really hurting for cash ...

There are exceptions. Keifel is in a very good location and the shop has
been there for a long time. He father started it, IIRC. Most specialty
bicycle retailers are not getting rich quick. It's truly a labor of love.

Alex Rodriguez Wrote:
If the test is bad, who knows what it is detecting? Could be there is
something different in the blood of those that got positives.
-------------
Alex

Technically, he did not fail 3 out of 3, he failed two out of four.
His test at Athens was originally ruled NEGATIVE by the Lab Director
but annotated as "suspicious" of a blood transfusion.

The ruling was changed to positive AFTER WADA got involved.


--
derby

Alex Rodriguez Wrote:
If the test is bad, who knows what it is detecting? Could be there is
something different in the blood of those that got positives.
-------------
Alex

Technically, he did not fail 3 out of 3, he failed two out of four.
His test at Athens was originally ruled NEGATIVE by the Lab Director
but annotated as "suspicious" of a blood transfusion.

The ruling was changed to positive AFTER WADA got involved.


--
derby

MagillaGorilla Wrote:
Most people believe he's innocent because the concept of homologous
bloood transfusions defies empirical knowledge.

Why? It is done every day in medical care. Many people getting major
surgery, following major trauma or during treatment for leukaemias or
other blood or bone marrow diseases get transfused regularly. I give
blood to help out these people. Athletes have done this for a long time
to 'help' themselves. What empirical knowledge is being defied?

MagillaGorilla Wrote:
why not auto-transfuse since you know it's not detectable?

Because for elite athletes, there is a notable drop in performance
following donation of blood. Thus it would need to be done well before
the season and blood does not keep very well so there would be not a
great benefit post transfusion of old blood. Just ask the Olympic
Committee how well frozen blood keeps!

MagillaGorilla Wrote:
how do you type the blood?

Same as always. Check for ABO and Rh status. It is a very, very simple
agglutination test which takes about 1 - 2 minutes.

MagillaGorilla Wrote:
how do you find a donor?

There are many 'extras' in & around the Pro teams eg masseurs, physios,
cooks, partners, friends etc. Check them for blood-borne virus
infections like hepatitis C or HIV etc. Check their blood type. If it
is compatible at the ABO & Rh level, do further cross-matching tests to
check that there is no immediate reaction when the two are mixed. Again,
very simple stuff!

MagillaGorilla Wrote:
who helps you do this complex procedure?

The team medical staff.

MagillaGorilla Wrote:
because the test results have to be "interpreted by experts after it is
labeled 'suspicious.'"

This is just part of the process of the test! If it comes up as
abnormal by the automated reader, double check this with a manual
examination of the cells sorted by the FACS machine. This is standard
for all FACS testing where there are major implications for the result
(eg preventing fetal death in utero, destroying an athletes career) but
is not necessary at other times when the result does not have major
implications (eg when it is used to count the number of stem cells
harvested from a patient with a lymphoma or cancer).

MagillaGorilla Wrote:
Not exactly a mass spec result, now is it?

Yes, it is. This is not new technology. It has been used for many other
indications with excellent reliability, sensitivity, specificity,
positive predictive value and negative predictive value.

And a question for you:

If this was all happening to Davide Rebellin or Andreas Klöden rather
than Tyler Hamilton, would you be defending them? Or is it only because
TH speaks your language, is from your country, seems like a 'nice guy'
that you believe he can't possibly be a drug cheat?


--
patch70

MagillaGorilla Wrote:
Most people believe he's innocent because the concept of homologous
bloood transfusions defies empirical knowledge.

Why? It is done every day in medical care. Many people getting major
surgery, following major trauma or during treatment for leukaemias or
other blood or bone marrow diseases get transfused regularly. I give
blood to help out these people. Athletes have done this for a long time
to 'help' themselves. What empirical knowledge is being defied?

MagillaGorilla Wrote:
why not auto-transfuse since you know it's not detectable?

Because for elite athletes, there is a notable drop in performance
following donation of blood. Thus it would need to be done well before
the season and blood does not keep very well so there would be not a
great benefit post transfusion of old blood. Just ask the Olympic
Committee how well frozen blood keeps!

MagillaGorilla Wrote:
how do you type the blood?

Same as always. Check for ABO and Rh status. It is a very, very simple
agglutination test which takes about 1 - 2 minutes.

MagillaGorilla Wrote:
how do you find a donor?

There are many 'extras' in & around the Pro teams eg masseurs, physios,
cooks, partners, friends etc. Check them for blood-borne virus
infections like hepatitis C or HIV etc. Check their blood type. If it
is compatible at the ABO & Rh level, do further cross-matching tests to
check that there is no immediate reaction when the two are mixed. Again,
very simple stuff!

MagillaGorilla Wrote:
who helps you do this complex procedure?

The team medical staff.

MagillaGorilla Wrote:
because the test results have to be "interpreted by experts after it is
labeled 'suspicious.'"

This is just part of the process of the test! If it comes up as
abnormal by the automated reader, double check this with a manual
examination of the cells sorted by the FACS machine. This is standard
for all FACS testing where there are major implications for the result
(eg preventing fetal death in utero, destroying an athletes career) but
is not necessary at other times when the result does not have major
implications (eg when it is used to count the number of stem cells
harvested from a patient with a lymphoma or cancer).

MagillaGorilla Wrote:
Not exactly a mass spec result, now is it?

Yes, it is. This is not new technology. It has been used for many other
indications with excellent reliability, sensitivity, specificity,
positive predictive value and negative predictive value.

And a question for you:

If this was all happening to Davide Rebellin or Andreas Klöden rather
than Tyler Hamilton, would you be defending them? Or is it only because
TH speaks your language, is from your country, seems like a 'nice guy'
that you believe he can't possibly be a drug cheat?


--
patch70

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

MagillaGorilla wrote:

Most people believe he's innocent because the concept of homologous
bloood transfusions defies empirical knowledge (why not

auto-transfuse

since you know it's not detectable? how do you type the blood? how

do

you find a donor? who helps you do this complex procedure?) and

because

the test results have to be "interpreted by experts after it is

labeled

'suspicious.'" Not exactly a mass spec result, now is it?

You still don't know the science behind the test and your blind
acceptance of it is a disgrace to the concept of due process.




Dumbass -

If the test is that bad, why did he fail 3 out of 3 and no one else
except his teamate got even 1 positive?

thanks,

K. Gringioni.


I already explained this. But I'll do it again. You wouldn't expect the
false positive rate for a bad test to be more than say 1 in 300 or so,
maybe 1 in 500. [BTW, an acceptable false positive rate is like 1 in
450,000.]

So let's assume the blood transfusion test is a bad test and has a high
false positive rate. Given the number of tests done (say 500-1000), two
or three false positives are what you would expect, and really no more
than that.

As for them both being on the same team, that is more problematic but
might likewise have a plausible explanation. We don't know if the test
will be predisposed to turning a false positive based on some common
medicine, food, supplement, medicine, etc. that Phonak riders use
exclusively.

There's also a chance that the two are completely unrelated - if you
think about how many teams there are in pro cycling who were tested for
blood transfusions (what maybe 15 or 20?). So would it be shocking that
two false positives ended up on the same team? No. As a matter of fact,
the chances would be 1 in 20, which is 5%. If I told you there was a 5%
chance your airline would crash, would you fly on it?

Let's see what Tyler's scientific experts come up with. USADA will post
a detailed .pdf file on their website after the CAS hearing listing all
the details of Tyler's scientific defense, and we can read that. I'm
not going to guess what his experts and attorney are going to use as a
defense because that's just retarded and serves no purpose.

But to sit here and just call the guy guilty because you're guessing at
the reliability of a test using flawed logic (i.e. how come there's only
2 positives out of all those tested? why are the only positives on the
same team?)...is a quite reckless. This isn't a mass spectrometer test,
you know.


Magilla