Those French!

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:15:18 -0700, wrote:

Actually, the hunting of WMD didn't cause their deaths - their deaths
have been largely caused by insurgents and other terrorists who
continue to fight honorably and bravely for their cause by driving up
to a crowds of innocent women and children in bomb-laden cars and
blowing themselves and the innocents to smithereens in the name of
Allah and Islam - the religion of "peace".

The above is the impression that one would tend to get from
casual observation of U.S. based media, but people who actually
studied the casualties systematically paint a different
picture. By a number of different estimates, the number of
civilians directly killed since the war started is around
30,000 while the number of overall fatalities as measured
by differences in death rate before and after the war is
over 100,000 (the latter number would include, for example
people who had died because of increased disease and
malnutrition). Among the 30,000 direct deaths, they
estimate that 30% were killed by coalition forces - mostly
by explosions at the time of the invasion, 9% were killed
by insurgents after invasion, and 36% were killed by
unaffiliated criminal violence that occurs in a unorganized,
chaotic society. So while it is true that insurgents
in Iraq have killed a huge number of innocents, it is also
true that a huge and probably greater number were killed
by coalition forces and an even greater number than that
seem to have died directly or indirectly as a result of general
destruction and chaos in the country that followed from
war.

Links:

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/pr12.php
http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=sc...casualties.pdf

nancy1 wrote:
L'Equipe is still humphing about, hinting at some drug use by LA

Well, they published other inre Lance/Tour:
http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug...=afp&type=lgns

PARIS (AFP) - Lance Armstrong overwhelmingly topped a poll amongst
French people asked to nominate the greatest cyclist ever in the
history of the Tour de France.

American Armstrong, who earned a record seventh consecutive title on
the Champs-Elysees in Paris on Sunday, polled 30 percent of the vote
published in Tuesday's edition of sports daily L'Equipe.

Belgium's five-time Tour winner Eddy Merckx polled 18 percent of the
vote and Bernard Hinault of France, also a five-time winner, earned 12
percent.

("nancy1" continued "lol'ing"):

...will
they never get over WWII? They need to move on, already!

Well, they "got over" WWII enough not to roll over for Uncle Sugar
concerning more recent military actions.

Some less recent historical perspective:

(From
http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/felix/ch_i5.htm)

Cover organizations are no new device. Americans can reflect on the
historical fact that American independence is in large measure due to
French ingenuity and success with one cover organization. In 1777 Louis
XVI was persuaded by his ministers that it should be French policy to
support the fight of the American colonists for independence from Great
Britain. The French Government, however, was not yet prepared to put
such a policy into effect openly. While La Fayette and scores of other
young French officers, volunteered for service with the Continental
Army, this was by no means the type of significant aid that was needed,
or that the French Government contemplated.

The answer was found in the person of Pierre Auguste Caron de
Beaumarchais, poet and playwright, author of Figaro, and a man well
known for his espousal of the ideas of the Enlightenment. Beaumarchais,
a wealthy man, was granted letters patent to found a private trading
firm in Paris, under the name of Hortalez and Company. This firm
promptly entered exclusively and actively into the promotion of North
American trade. It was well equipped for the purpose by the presence
among the principals of Silas Deane - whose qualifications, besides
being an American, were that he was an agent of the Continental
Congress. The doors of the French Treasury and of the French arsenals
were quietly opened to Hortalez and Company, and the firm forwarded on
to America vast and decisive quantities of arms, munitions, textiles -
and money. Among many other things, these supplies included nine-tenths
of the arms and munitions used by the Americans at the Battle of
Saratoga. (It is sad to be obliged to add that Beaumarchais, who was
himself out of pocket for considerable expenses, was eventually forced
to protracted litigation to recover these sums. The case was only
solved in 1835, when the American Congress finally reimbursed his
heirs.)

I understand Condi plays the piano, but I'm not aware of any noted
literary or musical works having been penned by Cheney or Bush, or
others down the Bushco command line. Ah well, it was a different age...
--TP

wrote:

nancy1 wrote:

L'Equipe is still humphing about, hinting at some drug use by LA


Well, they published other inre Lance/Tour:
http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug...=afp&type=lgns

PARIS (AFP) - Lance Armstrong overwhelmingly topped a poll amongst
French people asked to nominate the greatest cyclist ever in the
history of the Tour de France.

American Armstrong, who earned a record seventh consecutive title on
the Champs-Elysees in Paris on Sunday, polled 30 percent of the vote
published in Tuesday's edition of sports daily L'Equipe.

Belgium's five-time Tour winner Eddy Merckx polled 18 percent of the
vote and Bernard Hinault of France, also a five-time winner, earned 12
percent.

("nancy1" continued "lol'ing"):


...will
they never get over WWII? They need to move on, already!


Well, they "got over" WWII enough not to roll over for Uncle Sugar
concerning more recent military actions.

Some less recent historical perspective:

(From
http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/felix/ch_i5.htm)

Cover organizations are no new device. Americans can reflect on the
historical fact that American independence is in large measure due to
French ingenuity and success with one cover organization. In 1777 Louis
XVI was persuaded by his ministers that it should be French policy to
support the fight of the American colonists for independence from Great
Britain. The French Government, however, was not yet prepared to put
such a policy into effect openly. While La Fayette and scores of other
young French officers, volunteered for service with the Continental
Army, this was by no means the type of significant aid that was needed,
or that the French Government contemplated.

The answer was found in the person of Pierre Auguste Caron de
Beaumarchais, poet and playwright, author of Figaro, and a man well
known for his espousal of the ideas of the Enlightenment. Beaumarchais,
a wealthy man, was granted letters patent to found a private trading
firm in Paris, under the name of Hortalez and Company. This firm
promptly entered exclusively and actively into the promotion of North
American trade. It was well equipped for the purpose by the presence
among the principals of Silas Deane - whose qualifications, besides
being an American, were that he was an agent of the Continental
Congress. The doors of the French Treasury and of the French arsenals
were quietly opened to Hortalez and Company, and the firm forwarded on
to America vast and decisive quantities of arms, munitions, textiles -
and money. Among many other things, these supplies included nine-tenths
of the arms and munitions used by the Americans at the Battle of
Saratoga. (It is sad to be obliged to add that Beaumarchais, who was
himself out of pocket for considerable expenses, was eventually forced
to protracted litigation to recover these sums. The case was only
solved in 1835, when the American Congress finally reimbursed his
heirs.)

I understand Condi plays the piano, but I'm not aware of any noted
literary or musical works having been penned by Cheney or Bush, or
others down the Bushco command line. Ah well, it was a different age...
--TP


They're more the character of old men in front of a country store who
lean back in their chairs, prop their feet up on a cracker barrel and
tell one whopper after another, while most around them see no harm at
all in the practice.

"nancy1" wrote in message
oups.com...
L'Equipe is still humphing about, hinting at some drug use by LA...will
they never get over WWII? They need to move on, already! LOL.

N.

You know, sometimes even I have trouble getting over World War II. Isn't
that odd? I wasn't even born then.

Which never happened before the Bush invasion. And yes the 20 thousand
dead are innocent. Insurgent is the word the media uses instead of the
resistance. It helps to dull the masses senses. But they can not be
called insurgents just as the French resistance against the Nazis can
not be called insurgents either.

Andre a =E9crit :
Which never happened before the Bush invasion. And yes the 20 thousand
dead are innocent. Insurgent is the word the media uses instead of the
resistance. It helps to dull the masses senses. But they can not be
called insurgents just as the French resistance against the Nazis can
not be called insurgents either.

You said the magic word, you lose!

-ilan

wrote:

...will
they never get over WWII? They need to move on, already!

Well, they "got over" WWII enough not to roll over for Uncle Sugar
concerning more recent military actions.

Of course, that is very recent. But by "will they never get over
WWII?," I was asking if they will ever forgive themselves (and stop
resenting us) for needing our military power during WWII. It is one
thing not to have the ability to take a stand against the Germans, and
quite another, during peace-time, to take a stand against us
(especially in that their attitude about us and Iraq is rather
popular). The two really cannot be compared.

I believe that any tourist or visitor (for example, someone there on an
academic sabbatical) can cite more than one instance of the arrogant
French attitude of "I cannot understand your French," even if it is
perfect. Even Bob Roll's pronunciation of TDF is a reaction related to
his experience with that arrogance which is born of resentment.

That's all I was trying to say. OTOH, I may be totally wrong.

N.

"nancy1" wrote in message
oups.com...
Of course, that is very recent. But by "will they never get over
WWII?," I was asking if they will ever forgive themselves (and stop
resenting us) for needing our military power during WWII.

Nobody resents that.

....
I believe that any tourist or visitor (for example, someone there on an
academic sabbatical) can cite more than one instance of the arrogant
French attitude of "I cannot understand your French," even if it is
perfect....

Having often been in France, I really can't confirm that. Not at all.


That's all I was trying to say. OTOH, I may be totally wrong.


Yes, perhaps you are.

in 477076 20050728 162425 "nancy1" wrote:

I believe that any tourist or visitor (for example, someone there on an
academic sabbatical) can cite more than one instance of the arrogant
French attitude of "I cannot understand your French," even if it is
perfect. Even Bob Roll's pronunciation of TDF is a reaction related to
his experience with that arrogance which is born of resentment.

That's all I was trying to say. OTOH, I may be totally wrong.

I've had people in the USA tell me they didn't understand my English
- and I'm English! But I didn't put it down to arrogance ...

"nancy1" a écrit dans le message de news:
...


wrote:

...will
they never get over WWII? They need to move on, already!

Well, they "got over" WWII enough not to roll over for Uncle Sugar
concerning more recent military actions.

Of course, that is very recent. But by "will they never get over
WWII?," I was asking if they will ever forgive themselves (and stop
resenting us) for needing our military power during WWII. It is one
thing not to have the ability to take a stand against the Germans, and
quite another, during peace-time, to take a stand against us
(especially in that their attitude about us and Iraq is rather
popular). The two really cannot be compared.

I believe that any tourist or visitor (for example, someone there on an
academic sabbatical) can cite more than one instance of the arrogant
French attitude of "I cannot understand your French," even if it is
perfect. Even Bob Roll's pronunciation of TDF is a reaction related to
his experience with that arrogance which is born of resentment.

That's all I was trying to say. OTOH, I may be totally wrong.

N.

The most common remark of friends and relatives when visiting me in France
is, "I don't know why people say the French are rude, I found people here to
be very nice and helpful."