How much power does an average recreational rider generate whenclimbing?

Art Harris wrote:

How much power can a typical, reasonably fit recreational rider
produce on long climbs. For instance, you're doing a 60-mile ride,
cruising along at about 16-17 mph in rolling terrain, and then
encounter a 1-mile 8-percent grade? Obviously, you're going to work
harder on the climb. But how hard can you go on the climb without
blowing up? 150 Watts? 200 Watts? 250 Watts?
A friend of mine was tested in a lab setting. They were all astonished ,
because he produced 450 Watts, but he's a talented amateur racer. When I'm
trying to hold his rear wheel, I end up feeling completely sick after an
hour or 2, when he really goes fast.

Derk

On Aug 6, 6:18*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 14:10:43 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
Upon further review, I decided to check a few hills I know with online
tools to get a general idea of how far off my perception is. *One hill
I know of that's rather steep came in at a 4-5% grade, which was a
little less than I expected. *This is the type of hill I'll get up and
really crank on in order to keep managable cadence, and what I had in
mind when I was thinking 8% grade earlier. *Oops...

Then I went to my steepest local hill. *this one has kicked my rear
over and over on the singlespeed, with my making it to the top only
once or twice - ever. *And that was snaking back and forth at the end,
unable to crank straight up. *On this hill on the new bike I'd drop to
my easiest gear and crank hard, and maintain 8ish MPH. *I don't think
I could do this for miles, but for the short duration of this hill
it's managable. *That's a 12% grade per the web site, and I have a
hard time imagining anything steeper on public roads, especially in
areas where it snows. *That same site has another hill which I can
crank up on the SS no problem rated @ 13.5%, and I'm certain that hill
is less steep than the one reported at 12%. *These estimates are from
toporoute.com and I can't vouch for how accurate they are. *I guess
the only way to tell for sure would be to make a tool such as you
suggested and check for myself.

Dear Dan,

Again, I assume that this is all in good faith.

But I'll be astonished if you're cranking up a 13.5% hill on a
single-speed with no trouble and a bad knee.

California has +26% highways like Sonora Pass:
*http://www.chainreaction.com/sonora_pass_overview.htm

Cheers,

Carl Fogel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Carl,

Perhaps I wasn't clear, or perhaps you need to read more carefully. I
posted that the steepest hill I ride is reported to be 12% on that
site, and it's the steepest hill I could imagine on public roads. I
made it clear that I don't ride up that hill without trouble, and that
more often than not I don't even make it when on the single speed.
Then I posted that another hill, which is notable less steep, is
reported to be 13.5% on that website, and I can crank that one without
issue on the single speed. My point is/was that the website judging
grades doesn't appear to be very accurate. After all, it wouldn't
make much sense that a 12% is easier to climb than a 13.5%. now would
it?

"DanK wrote:
These estimates are from
toporoute.com and I can't vouch for how accurate they are. *I guess
the only way to tell for sure would be to make a tool such as you
suggested and check for myself.


I had never used toporoute.com, so I tried it on a few local hills. At
first I really liked the features (such as conforming to road curves
automatically). But then I began seeing anomalies such as sharp dips
on climbs that I know are all uphill.

I normally use gmap-pedometer.com with elevation selected.
Unfortunately, that doesn't give grade percent directly.

At any rate, I don't think it's unreasonable that someone who rides
19-20 mph on the flats might drop to 5-6 mph on an 8% grade. The
exception would be for short "bumps" where your momentum would carry
you up and over.

Art Harris

On Aug 6, 8:35*pm, "Barry" wrote:
California has +26% highways like Sonora Pass:
http://www.chainreaction.com/sonora_pass_overview.htm

I've seen pictures of that 26% sign, but the book "The Complete Guide to
Climbing (by Bike)" shows Sonora Pass with an average grade of 7% and a max of
21%. *ClimbByBike.com gives a max of 18%, with no mile exceeding 11% (which is
still mighty steep):

http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp...ountainID=8254

Based upon my experience in north Georgia, it is standard with
departments of transportation that maximal steepness is not over some
reasonable fixed distance but always turns out to be on the steepest
inside corner of a single turn along the climb or over very short (few
feet) change in grade. Average gradients posted by DOTs are accurate.
-Mike

Carl wrote:
That grade was 8%--Tour de France winners slow down an awful lot for
8% hills, even though it's only a rise of 8 feet in 100.


Indeed. I found a site that has a pretty good description of what
various grades feel like:

From:
http://www.roberts-1.com/bikehudson/...ness/index.htm

"2% grade does not seem very steep, but it's enough to substantially
reduce forward speed, and for most riders it will absorb more than
half their power output.

6% grade is enough to cut speed to well under half, and absorb more
than 80% of a rider's power output (leaving less than 20% to fight air
resistance and rolling friction).

10% grade, and anyone who is not a fit and frequent rider is off their
bike walking -- and anyone who is not a racer is reaching for all the
extra power they've got."

I think that about sums it up.

Art Harris

On Aug 7, 5:32*am, " wrote:

Perhaps I wasn't clear, or perhaps you need to read more carefully. *I
posted that the steepest hill I ride is reported to be 12% on that
site, and it's the steepest hill I could imagine on public roads. *I
made it clear that I don't ride up that hill without trouble, and that
more often than not I don't even make it when on the single speed.
Then I posted that another hill, which is notable less steep, is
reported to be 13.5% on that website, and I can crank that one without
issue on the single speed. *My point is/was that the website judging
grades doesn't appear to be very accurate. *After all, it wouldn't
make much sense that a 12% is easier to climb than a 13.5%. now would
it?

Grade estimates from automated processing of topo
maps (or road signs) can be very inaccurate. The
best way to estimate grade is to get elevations at
start and end of the hill (the topo map is usually OK
for this) and measure the length of the hill with an
odometer, bike computer or the like. Automated
processing often does not get the length accurately.

12% is hard, but there are steeper public streets.
It depends where you live. In the neighborhood
I grew up in in Pittsburgh, the local super-hard hill
is S. Negley Av at 16% and about 0.25 miles long.
That's not anywhere near the steepest street in
Pittsburgh, although many of the steeper ones are
shorter - Canton Av. is 37%:
http://www.frontiernet.net/~rochball...gh_streets.htm

In LA there is an annual hillclimb up Fargo St at 33%.
In Los Gatos, CA the annual Cat's Hill Criterium
goes up Nicholson Av, short but sweet at about 22%:
http://www.catshill.org/
Chaos in the lower racing categories sometimes
brings many riders to a halt on the hill. On the
other hand, in the pro/1/2 race I saw Eric Wohlberg
ride up it every lap in the big ring. If you don't
shift rings you're much less likely to drop the chain.

Ben

In article
,
Art Harris wrote:

Carl wrote:
That grade was 8%--Tour de France winners slow down an awful lot for
8% hills, even though it's only a rise of 8 feet in 100.


Indeed. I found a site that has a pretty good description of what
various grades feel like:

From:
http://www.roberts-1.com/bikehudson/...ness/index.htm

"2% grade does not seem very steep, but it's enough to substantially
reduce forward speed, and for most riders it will absorb more than
half their power output.

6% grade is enough to cut speed to well under half, and absorb more
than 80% of a rider's power output (leaving less than 20% to fight air
resistance and rolling friction).

10% grade, and anyone who is not a fit and frequent rider is off their
bike walking -- and anyone who is not a racer is reaching for all the
extra power they've got."

I think that about sums it up.

This accords with some locally published bicycle maps.
Grades are marked with a code approximately every quarter mile.
The four codes represent 3-5%, 5-7%, 7-9%, you're on your own.
Some of the grades start at 3% and go through each code sequentialy,
passing 9% nearing the top. Best to leave something in the
tank from the beginning.

--
Michael Press

On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:59:56 GMT, Peter Cole
wrote:

Jay Beattie wrote:

I wonder about the 26% designation for Sonora Pass. There are a bunch
of local climbs in the 20% range that are steeper than any thing on
Sonora Pass, IIRC. By the way, I commute over a 16% hill, and one
day, I came across this guy riding up the hill on a fixie. I don't
know if he had a bad knee, but he seemed to be having no trouble
getting up the hill. I could barely stay with him (which was kind of
embarrassing on my multi speed cyclocross bike). Fixed gears are
great for climbing assuming you have the right gear. -- Jay Beattie.

Numerous riders have completed the Grand Divide Race (GDR) on fixers and
single speeds. Canada to Mexico, 2500 miles, much off-road, 300K+ feet
of total climbing, 16 days or so.

Dear Peter,

"Numerous" and "completed" may be somewhat misleading.

As far as I can tell, only 27 racers have finished the Great Divide
Race, which has been held only 6 times--1999, 2004-5-6-7-8.

(Others may have eventually ridden the same route, but that's not the
same as completing the race.)

In 2008, only 7 of the 18 GDR entrants finished the race.

The site below shows only 5 single-speed riders in blue text, 4 of
them DNF:
http://topofusion.com/divide/GDR08.htm

The sole single-speed finisher in the 2008 GDR was Jenn Hopkins, the
reigning lady's single-speed queen:
http://greatdividerace.blogspot.com/

(That site fails to list Rainer Klaus as a 7th 2008 GDR finisher.)

Here's Jenn, pushing her single-speed:
http://greatdividerace.blogspot.com/...3_archive.html

Some other multi-speed riders pushing on the Great Divide Race:
http://greatdividerace.blogspot.com/...1_archive.html

Below is a little history and the list of all finishers of the GDR:

History
In 1999, John Stamstad was the first to complete a time trial of the
GDMBR, scorching the route in an unprecedented 18 days, 5 hours.
John's mark stood for 5 years, until the inaugural Great Divide Race
was held. 7 racers started and 4 finished, with Stamstad's record
falling to Mike Curiak in 16 days, 57 minutes. That mark stood for 3
years before Jay Petervary raised the bar with a time of 15 days, 4
hours, and 18 minutes. Barely a year later John Nobile scorched the
course in 15 days, 1 hour, 26 minutes. . . .

GDR Results
2008
John Nobile 15:01:26
Carl Hutchings 17:10:41
Rainer Klaus 18:01:26
Simon Kennet 19:05:02
Fred Wilkinson 21:01:45
Noah Dimit 22:12:11
Jenn Hopkins 22:18:40

2007
Jay Petervary 15:04:18
Matt Lee 15:22:40
Alex Field 21:03:23
Steve Wilkinson 21:22:20
Bruce Dinsmore 22:02:06
Jon Hurly 22:13:50
Matt Kemp 23:05:40
Josh Ficke 23:11:50
Ashley McKenzie 23:13:03
Jon Billman 24:23:25

2006
Matt Lee 17:22:30

2005
Matt Lee 19:04:17
Brad Kee 21:23:47
Trish Stevenson 21:23:47
Kent Peterson 22:03:09

2004
Mike Curiak 16:00:57
Peter Basinger 16:01:21
Jan Kopka 20:21:00
Matt Lee 30:04:30

1999
John Stamstad 18:05:37 (individual time trial)
http://greatdividerace.com/_wsn/page2.html

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:15:52 +0200, Derk wrote:

A friend of mine was tested in a lab setting.


For what time period?

They were all astonished ,
because he produced 450 Watts, but he's a talented amateur racer.

If he hit that wattage at the end of a ramp or stress test, for for a
minute or more, that's impressive. If it was an instantaneous max,
even a terrible racer and also other sorts of athletic cyclists should
be able to do that easily.

But that sort of instantaneious power is not relevant to this thread.

On Aug 7, 11:48*am, "
wrote:
On Aug 7, 5:32*am, " wrote:



Perhaps I wasn't clear, or perhaps you need to read more carefully. *I
posted that the steepest hill I ride is reported to be 12% on that
site, and it's the steepest hill I could imagine on public roads. *I
made it clear that I don't ride up that hill without trouble, and that
more often than not I don't even make it when on the single speed.
Then I posted that another hill, which is notable less steep, is
reported to be 13.5% on that website, and I can crank that one without
issue on the single speed. *My point is/was that the website judging
grades doesn't appear to be very accurate. *After all, it wouldn't
make much sense that a 12% is easier to climb than a 13.5%. now would
it?

Grade estimates from automated processing of topo
maps (or road signs) can be very inaccurate. *The
best way to estimate grade is to get elevations at
start and end of the hill (the topo map is usually OK
for this) and measure the length of the hill with an
odometer, bike computer or the like. *Automated
processing often does not get the length accurately.

12% is hard, but there are steeper public streets.
It depends where you live. *In the neighborhood
I grew up in in Pittsburgh, the local super-hard hill
is S. Negley Av at 16% and about 0.25 miles long.
That's not anywhere near the steepest street in
Pittsburgh, although many of the steeper ones are
shorter - Canton Av. is 37%:http://www.frontiernet.net/~rochball...gh_streets.htm

In LA there is an annual hillclimb up Fargo St at 33%.
In Los Gatos, CA the annual Cat's Hill Criterium
goes up Nicholson Av, short but sweet at about 22%:http://www.catshill.org/
Chaos in the lower racing categories sometimes
brings many riders to a halt on the hill. *On the
other hand, in the pro/1/2 race I saw Eric Wohlberg
ride up it every lap in the big ring. *If you don't
shift rings you're much less likely to drop the chain.

I typically did that race with a 21/42 when I rode NorCal in the 80's
before moving to Oregon. I don't recall seeing any racer come to a
halt on that hill except Eric Heiden when he broke a chain on a warm
up lap. This was back in the day of friction shifting and toe clips --
you really had to set up for the climb. I'm sure someone blew a shift
and came to a stop or pulled out of a toe clip. I just never saw it.
Any way, I don't believe some of the grade designations. 37%? I want
to see that Pitsburgh hill in person. -- Jay Beattie.