Tire-Making: version 'lumpy, bumpy & wrinkly but holding on'

I am fairly pleased.
I finally got a whole casing assembled, and it fits on a wheel and
everything.

http://www.norcom2000.com/users/dcim...2/test_02.html
tiny-
http://tinyurl.com/7xfkc28


There are numerous issues however. In fact,,,, every time I think I've
solved one big problem, I get a bit further and a few more spring up. By
the time I can see something's not going to work very well, it's too far
along to save that attempt.


In the #2 and #3 pics, you can see that the threads don't look very
smooth compared to the last casing fabric sample. Previously I had to
hand-crank the casing machine (for about 20 minutes) to get it to work.
Since the last use I put a motor on it, which is great because I get to
stand idly by while it goes on its own--but the motor's stall speed is
about 2X as fast as I was hand-cranking it, and the faster speed is
causing other issues.

The tire was supposed to be a 26" x 1.5", but it ended up about 1.25"
wide due to one of the surprise issues.... The tire looks rather small
but then the Worksman steel rim is pretty wide. I had a narrower MTB
wheel but it was still on the bike; the Worksman was loose so I grabbed
it instead.

The wrinkles came about because it's really difficult to fold the sides
of the casing over the bead wires without ripping the casing. This
casing is very thin--one layer is only about .013" thick. If you want a
thin+lightweight tire, that sounds great--but several ways I thought
would be easy to fold it over all put tears in it.

The tube only has a pound or two of pressure in it. The casing would
need to cure for at least 24 hours before I could try to pump it up more
and if I will bother trying that depends on what the inside looks like.
I'll get some pics of that tomorrow.



The page says "test #2" because this was the second time I tried to make
a complete casing. The first time failed miserably and no photos were
taken.

DougC wrote:
I am fairly pleased.
I finally got a whole casing assembled, and it fits on a wheel and
everything.

http://www.norcom2000.com/users/dcim...2/test_02.html

tiny-
http://tinyurl.com/7xfkc28


There are numerous issues however. In fact,,,, every time I think I've
solved one big problem, I get a bit further and a few more spring up. By
the time I can see something's not going to work very well, it's too far
along to save that attempt.


In the #2 and #3 pics, you can see that the threads don't look very
smooth compared to the last casing fabric sample. Previously I had to
hand-crank the casing machine (for about 20 minutes) to get it to work.
Since the last use I put a motor on it, which is great because I get to
stand idly by while it goes on its own--but the motor's stall speed is
about 2X as fast as I was hand-cranking it, and the faster speed is
causing other issues.

The tire was supposed to be a 26" x 1.5", but it ended up about 1.25"
wide due to one of the surprise issues.... The tire looks rather small
but then the Worksman steel rim is pretty wide. I had a narrower MTB
wheel but it was still on the bike; the Worksman was loose so I grabbed
it instead.

The wrinkles came about because it's really difficult to fold the sides
of the casing over the bead wires without ripping the casing. This
casing is very thin--one layer is only about .013" thick. If you want a
thin+lightweight tire, that sounds great--but several ways I thought
would be easy to fold it over all put tears in it.

The tube only has a pound or two of pressure in it. The casing would
need to cure for at least 24 hours before I could try to pump it up more
and if I will bother trying that depends on what the inside looks like.
I'll get some pics of that tomorrow.



The page says "test #2" because this was the second time I tried to make
a complete casing. The first time failed miserably and no photos were
taken.

You, sir, are an amazingly determined and disciplined person.

If you were making lightweight tires for some application
like a Canadian 28 (-642) where no other products exist, I
could understand your herculean efforts. But for a 26x1.5?
Really?

Regarding motor speed, I suppose you've already changed the
gearing since that's quick and cheap. Good luck in your pursuit!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 11/14/2011 7:02 PM, DougC wrote:
I am fairly pleased.
I finally got a whole casing assembled, and it fits on a wheel and
everything.

http://www.norcom2000.com/users/dcim...2/test_02.html

tiny-
http://tinyurl.com/7xfkc28



A fourth pic is added to the above page.

I took the casing off the rim to inspect the inside. It had been about
eight hours so I figured it would be pretty set.

Most of it looks smooth and fairly consistent except for the obvious
problems of holes & rips due to the rubber coating being too thin. Also
it feels like the bead wires are loose inside the edge of the casing,
when (I thought that) I put quite a bit of liquid rubber in there before
folding the casing over the beads....

It had maybe 8 psi in it previously.
When I put it back on the wheel and tried to inflate it to 20 PSI, a
spot on one bead began to lift. The bear-setting drum still needed some
adjustment; I was aware of this because when I measured the
circumference of where both beads would get wrapped, one was about 1.4"
larger than the other.

On Nov 15, 1:02*am, DougC wrote:
I am fairly pleased.
I finally got a whole casing assembled, and it fits on a wheel and
everything.

http://www.norcom2000.com/users/dcim...ies/recumbent/...
tiny-http://tinyurl.com/7xfkc28

There are numerous issues however. In fact,,,, every time I think I've
solved one big problem, I get a bit further and a few more spring up. By
the time I can see something's not going to work very well, it's too far
along to save that attempt.

In the #2 and #3 pics, you can see that the threads don't look very
smooth compared to the last casing fabric sample. Previously I had to
hand-crank the casing machine (for about 20 minutes) to get it to work.
Since the last use I put a motor on it, which is great because I get to
stand idly by while it goes on its own--but the motor's stall speed is
about 2X as fast as I was hand-cranking it, and the faster speed is
causing other issues.

The tire was supposed to be a 26" x 1.5", but it ended up about 1.25"
wide due to one of the surprise issues.... The tire looks rather small
but then the Worksman steel rim is pretty wide. I had a narrower MTB
wheel but it was still on the bike; the Worksman was loose so I grabbed
it instead.

The wrinkles came about because it's really difficult to fold the sides
of the casing over the bead wires without ripping the casing. This
casing is very thin--one layer is only about .013" thick. If you want a
thin+lightweight tire, that sounds great--but several ways I thought
would be easy to fold it over all put tears in it.

Use a thicker bead wire. Use more water in the latex during the
fabric making so you are left with less dried latex to manipulate
around the bead.


The tube only has a pound or two of pressure in it. The casing would
need to cure for at least 24 hours before I could try to pump it up more
and if I will bother trying that depends on what the inside looks like.
I'll get some pics of that tomorrow.

Oh yes! Get it up to 50 p.s.i.on the other rim for 48 hours before
applying a tread.

The page says "test #2" because this was the second time I tried to make
a complete casing. The first time failed miserably and no photos were
taken.

It looks good enough to slap a tread on it to get an idea of its
performance, but keep your speeds under 20mph if you can only test
while on public roads just in case it peels off when you are riding.
I've seem commercially available tyres which look at least as bad when
looking from inside the carcass, yet they work.

On 11/15/2011 4:17 AM, thirty-six wrote:
....
Use a thicker bead wire. Use more water in the latex during the
fabric making so you are left with less dried latex to manipulate
around the bead.


The bead wire tearing is when the edges of the casing are folded over
the beads, like at the 3:00 time in the "how its made" video-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_x0qPM8Ok

I've tried mixing water into the latex to thin it and it doesn't work
well, but the latex I have is a year past its use-by date so that may be
part of the issue.


Oh yes! Get it up to 50 p.s.i.on the other rim for 48 hours before
applying a tread.

One of the beads is too loose, so that won't work. One bead lifts off at
around 20 PSI.

They both should have been VERY close, so I think the loose bead crept
out while I was attempting to get the casing onto the rim for the first
time. I did not put much liquid rubber in there before folding the
casing sides over, and didn't give it much of any time to stiffen up. I
just assumed it wouldn't fit anyway and was just happy I'd gotten the
damn thing all in one piece.

It is difficult to guess how long I can leave the casing before forming
it (on a rim).... the tire factories all use volatiles as suspendants,
so they can heat the rubber and quickly make a change in its 'hardness'.
I cannot use that stuff due to the toxicity of the necessary ingredients.
,,,,,,,
The rubber I am using is water/ammonia suspended. While heating it up a
bit does help it set faster, you cannot heat it near the boiling point
of water as the water vaporizes inside the rubber forming bubbles and
ruins the rubber.


It looks good enough to slap a tread on it to get an idea of its
performance, but keep your speeds under 20mph if you can only test
while on public roads just in case it peels off when you are riding.
I've seem commercially available tyres which look at least as bad when
looking from inside the carcass, yet they work.

I don't got nuthing to make tread yet... I could just paint a few layers
of rubber on it though, I suppose.

The rubber I am using vulcanizes at room temperature, and I wasn't using
any rubber cement yet--only plain rubber. Anything added on has to be
done within an hour or so, or the added rubber won't really bond with
the underlying layer.

On Nov 15, 2:28*pm, DougC wrote:
On 11/15/2011 4:17 AM, thirty-six wrote:

....
Use a thicker bead wire. *Use more water in the latex during the
fabric making so you are left with less dried latex to manipulate
around the bead.

The bead wire tearing is when the edges of the casing are folded over
the beads, like at the 3:00 time in the "how its made" video-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_x0qPM8Ok

I'll look later.

I've tried mixing water into the latex to thin it and it doesn't work
well, but the latex I have is a year past its use-by date so that may be
part of the issue.

Use ammonia as the basic thinning agent and volatile, only minimal
water is required to allow penetration into the thread's fibre and
there may be sufficient in the ammonia itself. Use a piece of cotton
denim to do a peel test. When you have just enough water to effect
penetration in the fibre, it's ready to use.



Oh yes! *Get it up to 50 p.s.i.on the other rim for 48 hours before
applying a tread.

One of the beads is too loose, so that won't work. One bead lifts off at
around 20 PSI.

They both should have been VERY close, so I think the loose bead crept
out while I was attempting to get the casing onto the rim for the first
time. I did not put much liquid rubber in there before folding the
casing sides over, and didn't give it much of any time to stiffen up. I
just assumed it wouldn't fit anyway and was just happy I'd gotten the
damn thing all in one piece.

You should be spiral wrapping your bead wire/cord so that it self
grips.

It is difficult to guess how long I can leave the casing before forming
it (on a rim).... the tire factories all use volatiles as suspendants,
so they can heat the rubber and quickly make a change in its 'hardness'.
I cannot use that stuff due to the toxicity of the necessary ingredients.

I think there is more to learn. There is'nt anything particularly
toxic in tyre rubbers as far as I'm aware. There is a bicycle tyre
today which is formed flat with a tread each side, perhaps you should
not worry about forming the toroid and the carcass will correctly form
as long as you leave the latex to fully dry first.
,,,,,,,
The rubber I am using is water/ammonia suspended. While heating it up a
bit does help it set faster, you cannot heat it near the boiling point
of water as the water vaporizes inside the rubber forming bubbles and
ruins the rubber.

I doubt you are gaining any advantage over natural drying times. If
you want faster, you need less water in solution, but this affects the
fibre penetration.



It looks good enough to slap a tread on it to get an idea of its
performance, but keep your speeds under 20mph if you can only test
while on public roads just in case it peels off when you are riding.
I've seem commercially available tyres which look at least as bad when
looking from inside the carcass, yet they work.

I don't got nuthing to make tread yet... I could just paint a few layers
of rubber on it though, I suppose.

Yeah, white strips for the track. Seriously, just buy black rubber
tape.

The rubber I am using vulcanizes at room temperature, and I wasn't using

If it's latex, it's not vulcanising.

any rubber cement yet--only plain rubber.

You mean latex? Rubber IS a modified latex to prevent fluidity, or a
similar substance..

Anything added on has to be
done within an hour or so, or the added rubber won't really bond with
the underlying layer.

Usually 20 minutes is the ideal drying time and your solution should
probably be modified to this standard according to your local natural
working atmospheric conditions.

Well you can get it to adhere. You may have difficulty forming a
cohesive bond without a surface preparation to a fully dried part.
Heating the assembled parts may be sufficient to shake up the
molecules so they form a cohesive bond even without vulcanisation.
The most effective way to use latex as an adhesive is in as thin an
application as you can make to both surfaces. It needs high pressure
on assembly to guarantee a good cohesive bond precisely because it has
poor cohesive strength. Sticking on the tread should be the easy
part. Prepare the vulcanised tread first by cleaning with ammonia or
acetone. Thin down some latex emulsion with ammonia so as to form a
thin layer on both the tread and the carcass and bring together
carefully as soon as they exhibit dryness avoiding bubbles. Bandage
the ttread and tyre to the rim and inflate hard.

If you use a contact adhesive with a petroleum distilate based
volatile it will have some resin in it which forms a more cohesive
layer for which it is not essential to apply so thinly and is more
tolerant of low pressure assembly. You will probably be more tolerant
to the ammonia solutilon. I use the other stuff (petrol distillate)
for resticking a tubular's base tape when I don't have the will to
clean off the original cement.

On Nov 15, 9:28 am, DougC wrote:
On 11/15/2011 4:17 AM, thirty-six wrote:

....
Use a thicker bead wire. Use more water in the latex during the
fabric making so you are left with less dried latex to manipulate
around the bead.

The bead wire tearing is when the edges of the casing are folded over
the beads, like at the 3:00 time in the "how its made" video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_x0qPM8Ok

That's pretty cool - I like the British version of How It's Made
better and after only seeing that one clip! You've probably seen this
tire manufacturing video - Schwalbe did a better job of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5cx_72EjnA

I've tried mixing water into the latex to thin it and it doesn't work
well, but the latex I have is a year past its use-by date so that may be
part of the issue.



Oh yes! Get it up to 50 p.s.i.on the other rim for 48 hours before
applying a tread.

One of the beads is too loose, so that won't work. One bead lifts off at
around 20 PSI.

They both should have been VERY close, so I think the loose bead crept
out while I was attempting to get the casing onto the rim for the first
time. I did not put much liquid rubber in there before folding the
casing sides over, and didn't give it much of any time to stiffen up. I
just assumed it wouldn't fit anyway and was just happy I'd gotten the
damn thing all in one piece.

It is difficult to guess how long I can leave the casing before forming
it (on a rim).... the tire factories all use volatiles as suspendants,
so they can heat the rubber and quickly make a change in its 'hardness'.
I cannot use that stuff due to the toxicity of the necessary ingredients.
,,,,,,,
The rubber I am using is water/ammonia suspended. While heating it up a
bit does help it set faster, you cannot heat it near the boiling point
of water as the water vaporizes inside the rubber forming bubbles and
ruins the rubber.

It looks good enough to slap a tread on it to get an idea of its
performance, but keep your speeds under 20mph if you can only test
while on public roads just in case it peels off when you are riding.
I've seem commercially available tyres which look at least as bad when
looking from inside the carcass, yet they work.

I don't got nuthing to make tread yet... I could just paint a few layers
of rubber on it though, I suppose.

The rubber I am using vulcanizes at room temperature, and I wasn't using
any rubber cement yet--only plain rubber. Anything added on has to be
done within an hour or so, or the added rubber won't really bond with
the underlying layer.

Kudos! The idea of making your own tire never crossed my event
horizon. Way cool. I do have some questions for you. If you had
fabric cut on the bias that should take care of a lot of things at
once - bunching, uniformity and flexibility for wrapping around the
beads. Why did you go with what looks like a single strand layup for
the casing instead of starting with fabric?

You said that you didn't want to go with a female mold. With your
skills I'd think that would be fairly trivial to do. What's the issue
with a female mold?

R

On Nov 14, 5:33*pm, AMuzi wrote:
DougC wrote:
I am fairly pleased.
I finally got a whole casing assembled, and it fits on a wheel and
everything.

http://www.norcom2000.com/users/dcim...ies/recumbent/...

tiny-
http://tinyurl.com/7xfkc28

There are numerous issues however. In fact,,,, every time I think I've
solved one big problem, I get a bit further and a few more spring up. By
the time I can see something's not going to work very well, it's too far
along to save that attempt.

In the #2 and #3 pics, you can see that the threads don't look very
smooth compared to the last casing fabric sample. Previously I had to
hand-crank the casing machine (for about 20 minutes) to get it to work.
Since the last use I put a motor on it, which is great because I get to
stand idly by while it goes on its own--but the motor's stall speed is
about 2X as fast as I was hand-cranking it, and the faster speed is
causing other issues.

The tire was supposed to be a 26" x 1.5", but it ended up about 1.25"
wide due to one of the surprise issues.... The tire looks rather small
but then the Worksman steel rim is pretty wide. I had a narrower MTB
wheel but it was still on the bike; the Worksman was loose so I grabbed
it instead.

The wrinkles came about because it's really difficult to fold the sides
of the casing over the bead wires without ripping the casing. This
casing is very thin--one layer is only about .013" thick. If you want a
thin+lightweight tire, that sounds great--but several ways I thought
would be easy to fold it over all put tears in it.

The tube only has a pound or two of pressure in it. The casing would
need to cure for at least 24 hours before I could try to pump it up more
and if I will bother trying that depends on what the inside looks like.
I'll get some pics of that tomorrow.

The page says "test #2" because this was the second time I tried to make
a complete casing. The first time failed miserably and no photos were
taken.

You, sir, are an amazingly determined and disciplined person.

If you were making lightweight tires for some application
like a Canadian 28 (-642) where no other products exist, I
could understand your herculean efforts. But for a 26x1.5?
Really?

Not just any 26x1.5! This one has no tread and will blow off at
extremely low pressures. You cannot get those features on just any
store-bought tire.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 11/15/2011 1:19 PM, RicodJour wrote:

That's pretty cool - I like the British version of How It's Made
better and after only seeing that one clip! You've probably seen this
tire manufacturing video - Schwalbe did a better job of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5cx_72EjnA


That one and the Schwalbe one are the only two modern ones I've seen.

There is at least one other (not very good quality, nor very
informative) of a guy making tires very slowly on a much simpler setup,
in a rather dark factory. It only shows the machine where the beads are
put on. It's not on youtube, it's some other video site. He looks
Caucasian and since seeing it I've wondered where it was filmed. I've
not been able to find it again however.


Kudos! The idea of making your own tire never crossed my event
horizon. Way cool. I do have some questions for you. If you had
fabric cut on the bias that should take care of a lot of things at
once - bunching, uniformity and flexibility for wrapping around the
beads. Why did you go with what looks like a single strand layup for
the casing instead of starting with fabric?

Woven fabric won't work because of the way that the tire expands in the
final stage of manufacture.

The tire is made entirely at the diameter of the beads, and then (one
way or another) the center area is pushed outward. The edges stay the
same diameter (since there's steel beads restraining them) and the
rubber in the center area stretches, and the threads all have to be able
to spread out slightly from each other as they run towards the
centerline of the tire. If they are woven together there is too much
friction for them to spread out. You need some kind of fabric that
stretches considerably in one direction, but not 90-degrees from that
direction.

The tire companies have fabric made that is not woven, only glued
together--plus, the threads in each layer mostly only run one direction.
The Euro Schwalbe site has some good pics of it-
http://www.schwalbe.de/gbl/en/techni...nPoint=Technik
In most tires, two layers of this fabric are crossed perpendicular to
each other to make the end result resistant to stretching in all
directions.

I could not find anything already made like what all the bicycle tire
companies use. The closest I can come is by wrapping thread around a big
long tube, coating it with rubber and then cutting the results off. At
that point the rubber is dry to the touch, but isn't vulcanized. This
only gives me enough fabric for one tire at a time, but I can cut the
fabric at any angle I want--to make bias tires of whatever angle, or
radials. (I can also color the rubber any way I want, though I have not
gotten into that at all yet)

This odd requirement of the starting fabric is also the reason that I
think so few other people ever tried making bicycle tires at all. If you
don't have this kind of fabric, it's not going to work. Of course,
there's lots of /other/ reasons it may not work, but you can't even get
started trying anything else without getting this first.


You said that you didn't want to go with a female mold. With your
skills I'd think that would be fairly trivial to do. What's the issue
with a female mold?


It's at least a couple reasons.

One is that I don't have any easy way to make a [rigid] durable 3-D mold
that big. Having one CNC cut from metal would probably end up costing
$20K-$30K at least.

Another is that for street-tire treads I don't think it's necessary
(most street-tire treads are only 1/16"~2.5mm tall at the most). These
can be hand-rolled out with something like a cake fondant roller and
just applied directly to the tire.

On an industrial scale it is the /fastest/ way, and it does have some
other advantages,,, but it is also very expensive compared to other
methods I can imagine.

On 11/15/2011 2:22 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:

Not just any 26x1.5! This one has no tread and will blow off at
extremely low pressures. You cannot get those features on just any
store-bought tire.


Bah. Beaten paths are for beaten men.

Keep in mind, one side /did/ hold on....... -And I doubt that the
earliest pneumatic tires were inflated to much more than 20 psi either.
.....Anybody know?

Find vintage car and motorcycle tire inflation data is easy, but I've
not ever come across much info on early tire inflation pressures for
bicycles. One rule of thumb was that you used 20 PSI for each
square-inch of cross-sectional area, which would mean a 28x1-1/2"
tubular tire would have been properly inflated to around 30 PSI.