Rock n Roll

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 7:44:15 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 14:02, wrote:
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 12:22:38 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 11:40, sms wrote:
On 6/22/17 7:08 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 07:02, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 6:27:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 05:45, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/22/2017 12:26 AM, James wrote:
On 22/06/17 01:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle
chain pin is no match. The filing exercise in the
photo took just a few strokes and not a lot of
pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain
pins. I think you'll find (as James and I did) that
no steel file will put significant cuts in the pin.
Abrasives (e.g. aluminum oxide sandpaper, grinding
wheels, diamond "files") will cut the pin; but unless
motorized, they'll cut it pretty slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a
rough description of practical hardness commonly used
in machine shops. Steel that is "file hard" is too
hard to be cut with a file. It's even in
dictionaries:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a
chain pin. There may be some exotic and rare files
out there that I'm not familiar with. But having
worked in three machine shops for various lengths of
time, I can say that any normal "professional grade"
steel file attacking a chain pin will give you
scratches in the file and no significant change in
the chain pin.


But Joerg's files are "professional grade files
inherited from my grandpa. Some of which he inherited
from great-grandpa."

They made steel much harder back then don't you know?


I wondered about that too. I wear out a first rate
American made file in 4 to 6 months of frame repair and
nothing I work on is hardened.


They made excellent files in the olden days. The ones I
have are quite worn. That is because grandpa was a steam
locomotive engineer and he bought tools that the railroad
shop kicked out as too worn. He also bought new ones but
then only the best just like the railroad shop did.

Until recently I had no chain tool and over my lifetime
have swapped out dozens of chains via this method:

1. Lay down the bike.

2. File down a pin so the punch or hardened nail would not
slip (which could result in a major ouch situation).

3. Place link on a large metal block, anvil, whatever.
Place steel nut underneath link. Nut must be larger than
pin.

4. Drive out pin with punch and hammer or hardened nail
and hammer.

5. Do same with new chain to bring to required length.
Mount chain, push in the last pin, "caress" it with the
hammer so it is firmly holding but not too tight.

The only bikes that had removable links back in the old
days in Europe were single-gear classic ones. Road bikes
usually didn't and that was my favorite kind of bike (until
mountain bikes appeared).

This is like fixing a car with a shovel. I bought my first
chain tool in the early '70s, and it cost me like $2. I
couldn't imagine removing or installing a chain with a
hammer, nail and file -- and presumably a block of wood or
something to put under the chain when it was back on the bike
for final install.


I did use a borrowed chain tool once before I had my own. It
broke. I had to buy the guy a new one. Then I went back to my
old method. The chain tool I have now came with a bike repair
tool kit, else I still wouldn't have one.

I suspect the one you broke was one of the el-cheapo ones sold in
drug stores or department stores, though I can't ever recall
breaking one of those either, despite the low grade materials.


It didn't like the wider links of 5/6-speed chains. The hammer and
punch, in contrast, never cared :-)


You probably solder 0201 surface mount components with a Weller
160W soldering gun.


Not quite but I solder 0201 with 50W Weller stations. WECP-20 and
sometimes WES51. ETS tips are nice for that. When my age crept
above 50 I started needing a 5x Donovan Optical head loupe. Most of
my designs nowadays don't go below 0401 but they do for sampling
diodes and such. Those things can be smaller than flees.

Aside from a nice set of top quality files my grandpa also left me
various soldering irons. The manly kind where you first make a nice
hot fire, place them in there and then solder. Not so great for SMT
stuff though.

Grandpa was always the early adopter when new technology came out.
I still have his first radio wit a tube that could rightfully claim
to be the world's first integrated circuit, 90 years old now:

http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_3nf.html

Have to get back to my brew kettle now. An Irish Red Ale will be
made. This morning I brewed an Autumn Amber Ale. Took the day off.
While it boils (outside) I alternate between doing some yard work
and swimming in the pool. Life is great :-)

You guys should see my brewing utensils. A lot more McGyver stuff
than I ever used on bicycle maintenance.

I doubt that any of the people here know that on modern electronics
circuits you have to work under a microscope.


Jeff Lieberman and Stephen Scharf do. I used a USB microscope for a
while, one of those VEHO sub-$100 deals for students. Allows around 5"
scope-to-iron distance. Later I resorted to a head loupe because I do
not have to reposition that all the time when working on larger boards
of assembled prototypes. I lucked out. Donegan made 5x loupes for a
short time, I bought two right away and now they don't seem to have them
anymore. The highest I could see are 3.5x and that is marginal for me
when soldering 0201 parts, at least after I was well past 50.

http://www.doneganoptical.com/products/optivisor


... Designing PC boards
that use noise abatement technology is rather specialized.


You lost me there. Noise abatement on a board? The only cases I had were
for large aircraft, in the cabin where we had to neutralize the
400/800Hz "singing" by clever component placement and such. Other times
we had to "smoosh" magnetostrictive noise from ferrite cores.

The last board I worked on was less than 2" square. The crystal and CPU operated at 10 MHz so between signal lines you have to have ground wires to reduce cross-talk. The traces are so narrow and in places you simply can't see them without a microscope. And you also have to have a perfectly steady hand to solder them. where ever you can you absolutely must have ground planes. And add to this I had to program it for absolutely minimum battery drain.

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 7:47:51 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 15:23, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2017 9:27 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 05:45, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/22/2017 12:26 AM, James wrote:
On 22/06/17 01:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain
pin is no
match. The filing exercise in the photo took just a few
strokes and
not a lot of pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain pins. I
think you'll
find (as James and I did) that no steel file will put
significant cuts
in the pin. Abrasives (e.g. aluminum oxide sandpaper,
grinding wheels,
diamond "files") will cut the pin; but unless motorized,
they'll cut it
pretty slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a
rough description
of practical hardness commonly used in machine shops.
Steel that is
"file hard" is too hard to be cut with a file. It's even in
dictionaries:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a chain
pin. There may
be some exotic and rare files out there that I'm not
familiar with. But
having worked in three machine shops for various lengths
of time, I can
say that any normal "professional grade" steel file
attacking a chain
pin will give you scratches in the file and no significant
change in the
chain pin.


But Joerg's files are "professional grade files inherited
from my grandpa. Some of which he inherited from
great-grandpa."

They made steel much harder back then don't you know?


I wondered about that too.
I wear out a first rate American made file in 4 to 6 months of frame
repair and nothing I work on is hardened.


They made excellent files in the olden days. The ones I have are quite
worn. That is because grandpa was a steam locomotive engineer and he
bought tools that the railroad shop kicked out as too worn. He also
bought new ones but then only the best just like the railroad shop did.

Until recently I had no chain tool and over my lifetime have swapped
out dozens of chains via this method:

1. Lay down the bike.

2. File down a pin so the punch or hardened nail would not slip (which
could result in a major ouch situation).

3. Place link on a large metal block, anvil, whatever. Place steel nut
underneath link. Nut must be larger than pin.

4. Drive out pin with punch and hammer or hardened nail and hammer.

5. Do same with new chain to bring to required length. Mount chain,
push in the last pin, "caress" it with the hammer so it is firmly
holding but not too tight.

The only bikes that had removable links back in the old days in Europe
were single-gear classic ones. Road bikes usually didn't and that was
my favorite kind of bike (until mountain bikes appeared).

That method sounds so superior to chain tools, I'm sure it must be what
most professional bike mechanics use!


For rarely used tools my wife and I have the mantra "Do not buy what
just clogs shelf space most of the time if there is another way".
Swapping out a chain didn't take me longer than today where I have a
chain tool. Mainly because I do not trust a pin that's just pressed in
for riding. I want it "petted" with a hammer to make sure it stays at
its assigned job location.

Today I was looking about on Ebay for medium length arm rear derailleurs. Then it occurred to me that I have a long arm Chorus derailleur on one of the Colnagos up for sale.

So I removed it and put it on the Basso and put the Basso's short arm Centaur onto the Colnago. I didn't even have to change the chain length on either nor the cable.

Since the Colnago is a compact with the hollow crankpin it ended up with both of the bikes actually shifting better.

An hour of work to improve both bikes.

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 8:19:14 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 10:30:25 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
I believe the Joerg who said the _cleaning_ takes 20 minutes, and the
_lubing_ takes 10 minutes. Or to generalize, I believe you do often
tell the truth when you've not backed yourself into a corner by making
silly statements.

But I don't believe the 10 minute estimate was a typo. I don't believe
you can file a chain pin down with any normal steel file. I don't
believe that you really repair chains by finding steel nails along a
trail and smacking things with rocks. I don't believe that your area
drivers are far more dangerous than those in most areas of the U.S. I
don't believe that your life has been saved several times by disk brakes
stopping you just before wildlife collisions. And so on.

I _do_ believe you'll now say you never made those claims. And I don't
believe it's worth the the time to track them all down, as I did with
your Q-tip story.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Methinks that Joerg makes up things and then posts here just to see what kind of rise he can get from people. So much of what Joerg claims is simply unbelievable to those of us who ride in similar or even worse conditions. SOme of Joergs claims such as fixing a broken chain by using a scrounged nail and rock in the boonies boggles the mind when he also claims to carry a substantial tool kit but no chain tool.

Like Winnie-the-Pooh, Joerg loves a good story, and feels that the best stories are those of which he is the subject, and it is difficult to argue
with this sort of logic

On 2017-06-23 10:30, wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 7:44:15 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 14:02, wrote:

[...]


... Designing PC boards that use noise abatement technology is
rather specialized.


You lost me there. Noise abatement on a board? The only cases I had
were for large aircraft, in the cabin where we had to neutralize
the 400/800Hz "singing" by clever component placement and such.
Other times we had to "smoosh" magnetostrictive noise from ferrite
cores.

The last board I worked on was less than 2" square. The crystal and
CPU operated at 10 MHz so between signal lines you have to have
ground wires to reduce cross-talk. The traces are so narrow and in
places you simply can't see them without a microscope. And you also
have to have a perfectly steady hand to solder them. where ever you
can you absolutely must have ground planes. And add to this I had to
program it for absolutely minimum battery drain.

Noise abatement means more than not being able to shout over Frank
and Joerg arguing.


Ah, you meant electical noise or EMI. That is part of my home turf. Some
of my self-employment consists of companies calling me in when they
can't get that stuff under control.

So far I had nothing with traces narrower than 0.005" though. Except IC
design, of course.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 7:18:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-23 10:30, wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 7:44:15 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 14:02, wrote:

[...]


... Designing PC boards that use noise abatement technology is
rather specialized.


You lost me there. Noise abatement on a board? The only cases I had
were for large aircraft, in the cabin where we had to neutralize
the 400/800Hz "singing" by clever component placement and such.
Other times we had to "smoosh" magnetostrictive noise from ferrite
cores.

The last board I worked on was less than 2" square. The crystal and
CPU operated at 10 MHz so between signal lines you have to have
ground wires to reduce cross-talk. The traces are so narrow and in
places you simply can't see them without a microscope. And you also
have to have a perfectly steady hand to solder them. where ever you
can you absolutely must have ground planes. And add to this I had to
program it for absolutely minimum battery drain.

Noise abatement means more than not being able to shout over Frank
and Joerg arguing.


Ah, you meant electical noise or EMI. That is part of my home turf. Some
of my self-employment consists of companies calling me in when they
can't get that stuff under control.

So far I had nothing with traces narrower than 0.005" though. Except IC
design, of course.


Most of your noise is circuit noise I would expect rather than EMI. You analog guys love stuff less than half a megahertz.

On 2017-06-24 07:57, wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 7:18:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-23 10:30, wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 7:44:15 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 14:02, wrote:

[...]


... Designing PC boards that use noise abatement technology is
rather specialized.


You lost me there. Noise abatement on a board? The only cases I had
were for large aircraft, in the cabin where we had to neutralize
the 400/800Hz "singing" by clever component placement and such.
Other times we had to "smoosh" magnetostrictive noise from ferrite
cores.

The last board I worked on was less than 2" square. The crystal and
CPU operated at 10 MHz so between signal lines you have to have
ground wires to reduce cross-talk. The traces are so narrow and in
places you simply can't see them without a microscope. And you also
have to have a perfectly steady hand to solder them. where ever you
can you absolutely must have ground planes. And add to this I had to
program it for absolutely minimum battery drain.

Noise abatement means more than not being able to shout over Frank
and Joerg arguing.


Ah, you meant electical noise or EMI. That is part of my home turf. Some
of my self-employment consists of companies calling me in when they
can't get that stuff under control.

So far I had nothing with traces narrower than 0.005" though. Except IC
design, of course.


Most of your noise is circuit noise I would expect rather than EMI. You analog guys love stuff less than half a megahertz.


The most grief I deal with after a client blew EMC is in the 300-800MHz
region. Processor bus harmonics and such. Also, digital quickly becomes
analog again once you get above 1GHz. Even EMC is now measured up to
6GHz in most jurisdictions and the remedies are considered voodoo by
most. "What do you mean, you just bent a piece of our sheet metal and
that made it go away?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-06-22 15:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2017 11:49 AM, Duane wrote:
On 22/06/2017 11:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 7:08:28 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 07:02, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 6:27:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 05:45, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/22/2017 12:26 AM, James wrote:
On 22/06/17 01:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain
pin is no match. The filing exercise in the photo took just
a few strokes and not a lot of pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain pins. I
think you'll find (as James and I did) that no steel file
will put significant cuts in the pin. Abrasives (e.g.
aluminum oxide sandpaper, grinding wheels, diamond "files")
will cut the pin; but unless motorized, they'll cut it pretty
slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a rough
description of practical hardness commonly used in machine
shops. Steel that is "file hard" is too hard to be cut with a
file. It's even in dictionaries:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a chain pin.
There may be some exotic and rare files out there that I'm
not familiar with. But having worked in three machine shops
for various lengths of time, I can say that any normal
"professional grade" steel file attacking a chain pin will
give you scratches in the file and no significant change in
the chain pin.


But Joerg's files are "professional grade files inherited from
my grandpa. Some of which he inherited from great-grandpa."

They made steel much harder back then don't you know?


I wondered about that too. I wear out a first rate American made
file in 4 to 6 months of frame repair and nothing I work on is
hardened.


They made excellent files in the olden days. The ones I have are
quite worn. That is because grandpa was a steam locomotive engineer
and he bought tools that the railroad shop kicked out as too worn.
He also bought new ones but then only the best just like the
railroad shop did.

Until recently I had no chain tool and over my lifetime have
swapped out dozens of chains via this method:

1. Lay down the bike.

2. File down a pin so the punch or hardened nail would not slip
(which could result in a major ouch situation).

3. Place link on a large metal block, anvil, whatever. Place steel
nut underneath link. Nut must be larger than pin.

4. Drive out pin with punch and hammer or hardened nail and
hammer.

5. Do same with new chain to bring to required length. Mount chain,
push in the last pin, "caress" it with the hammer so it is firmly
holding but not too tight.

The only bikes that had removable links back in the old days in
Europe were single-gear classic ones. Road bikes usually didn't and
that was my favorite kind of bike (until mountain bikes appeared).

This is like fixing a car with a shovel. I bought my first chain tool
in the early '70s, and it cost me like $2. I couldn't imagine
removing or installing a chain with a hammer, nail and file -- and
presumably a block of wood or something to put under the chain when
it was back on the bike for final install.


I did use a borrowed chain tool once before I had my own. It broke. I
had to buy the guy a new one. Then I went back to my old method. The
chain tool I have now came with a bike repair tool kit, else I still
wouldn't have one.

I had a file once that I got from this crazy locomotive engineer. It
broke. I went back to using my chain tool to file parts. I had a hex
wrench break, too, so now I use vice grips -- or a hammer.


chains must be mystical. You can break a chain tool replacing one but
a nail and a stone works like a charm.

Well, as Joerg said, you should use a hardened nail. Those are what he
easily finds lying in the dirt alongside back country bike trails -


Not necessary on the trail. Any piece will do once the pin is flattened.
My old student's tool kit contained a hardened nail where I ground the
tip flat. Yes, with one of grandpa's files. On the trail I don't care
whether whatever metal piece I find is "one time use" but at home I did.

Talk to scouts. They know how to make do with the minimum in gear and
tools yet live quite comfortably out in the wilderness.


unlike in hardware stores, where 99% of the nails are made of low carbon
steel.


You never saw nails suitable to be driven into concrete? Do you think
tack strips for carpeting are fastened on slab with rubber nails?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 6/24/2017 1:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 15:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2017 11:49 AM, Duane wrote:
On 22/06/2017 11:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 7:08:28 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 07:02, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 6:27:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 05:45, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/22/2017 12:26 AM, James wrote:
On 22/06/17 01:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain
pin is no match. The filing exercise in the photo took just
a few strokes and not a lot of pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain pins. I
think you'll find (as James and I did) that no steel file
will put significant cuts in the pin. Abrasives (e.g.
aluminum oxide sandpaper, grinding wheels, diamond "files")
will cut the pin; but unless motorized, they'll cut it pretty
slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a rough
description of practical hardness commonly used in machine
shops. Steel that is "file hard" is too hard to be cut with a
file. It's even in dictionaries:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a chain pin.
There may be some exotic and rare files out there that I'm
not familiar with. But having worked in three machine shops
for various lengths of time, I can say that any normal
"professional grade" steel file attacking a chain pin will
give you scratches in the file and no significant change in
the chain pin.


But Joerg's files are "professional grade files inherited from
my grandpa. Some of which he inherited from great-grandpa."

They made steel much harder back then don't you know?


I wondered about that too. I wear out a first rate American made
file in 4 to 6 months of frame repair and nothing I work on is
hardened.


They made excellent files in the olden days. The ones I have are
quite worn. That is because grandpa was a steam locomotive engineer
and he bought tools that the railroad shop kicked out as too worn.
He also bought new ones but then only the best just like the
railroad shop did.

Until recently I had no chain tool and over my lifetime have
swapped out dozens of chains via this method:

1. Lay down the bike.

2. File down a pin so the punch or hardened nail would not slip
(which could result in a major ouch situation).

3. Place link on a large metal block, anvil, whatever. Place steel
nut underneath link. Nut must be larger than pin.

4. Drive out pin with punch and hammer or hardened nail and
hammer.

5. Do same with new chain to bring to required length. Mount chain,
push in the last pin, "caress" it with the hammer so it is firmly
holding but not too tight.

The only bikes that had removable links back in the old days in
Europe were single-gear classic ones. Road bikes usually didn't and
that was my favorite kind of bike (until mountain bikes appeared).

This is like fixing a car with a shovel. I bought my first chain tool
in the early '70s, and it cost me like $2. I couldn't imagine
removing or installing a chain with a hammer, nail and file -- and
presumably a block of wood or something to put under the chain when
it was back on the bike for final install.


I did use a borrowed chain tool once before I had my own. It broke. I
had to buy the guy a new one. Then I went back to my old method. The
chain tool I have now came with a bike repair tool kit, else I still
wouldn't have one.

I had a file once that I got from this crazy locomotive engineer. It
broke. I went back to using my chain tool to file parts. I had a hex
wrench break, too, so now I use vice grips -- or a hammer.


chains must be mystical. You can break a chain tool replacing one but
a nail and a stone works like a charm.

Well, as Joerg said, you should use a hardened nail. Those are what he
easily finds lying in the dirt alongside back country bike trails -


Not necessary on the trail. Any piece will do once the pin is flattened.
My old student's tool kit contained a hardened nail where I ground the
tip flat. Yes, with one of grandpa's files. On the trail I don't care
whether whatever metal piece I find is "one time use" but at home I did.

Talk to scouts. They know how to make do with the minimum in gear and
tools yet live quite comfortably out in the wilderness.


unlike in hardware stores, where 99% of the nails are made of low carbon
steel.


You never saw nails suitable to be driven into concrete?

I may have to explain to you what 99% means.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-06-24 19:12, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/24/2017 1:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 15:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2017 11:49 AM, Duane wrote:
On 22/06/2017 11:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 7:08:28 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 07:02, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 6:27:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 05:45, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/22/2017 12:26 AM, James wrote:
On 22/06/17 01:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain
pin is no match. The filing exercise in the photo took just
a few strokes and not a lot of pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain pins. I
think you'll find (as James and I did) that no steel file
will put significant cuts in the pin. Abrasives (e.g.
aluminum oxide sandpaper, grinding wheels, diamond "files")
will cut the pin; but unless motorized, they'll cut it pretty
slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a rough
description of practical hardness commonly used in machine
shops. Steel that is "file hard" is too hard to be cut with a
file. It's even in dictionaries:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a chain pin.
There may be some exotic and rare files out there that I'm
not familiar with. But having worked in three machine shops
for various lengths of time, I can say that any normal
"professional grade" steel file attacking a chain pin will
give you scratches in the file and no significant change in
the chain pin.


But Joerg's files are "professional grade files inherited from
my grandpa. Some of which he inherited from great-grandpa."

They made steel much harder back then don't you know?


I wondered about that too. I wear out a first rate American made
file in 4 to 6 months of frame repair and nothing I work on is
hardened.


They made excellent files in the olden days. The ones I have are
quite worn. That is because grandpa was a steam locomotive engineer
and he bought tools that the railroad shop kicked out as too worn.
He also bought new ones but then only the best just like the
railroad shop did.

Until recently I had no chain tool and over my lifetime have
swapped out dozens of chains via this method:

1. Lay down the bike.

2. File down a pin so the punch or hardened nail would not slip
(which could result in a major ouch situation).

3. Place link on a large metal block, anvil, whatever. Place steel
nut underneath link. Nut must be larger than pin.

4. Drive out pin with punch and hammer or hardened nail and
hammer.

5. Do same with new chain to bring to required length. Mount chain,
push in the last pin, "caress" it with the hammer so it is firmly
holding but not too tight.

The only bikes that had removable links back in the old days in
Europe were single-gear classic ones. Road bikes usually didn't and
that was my favorite kind of bike (until mountain bikes appeared).

This is like fixing a car with a shovel. I bought my first chain
tool
in the early '70s, and it cost me like $2. I couldn't imagine
removing or installing a chain with a hammer, nail and file -- and
presumably a block of wood or something to put under the chain when
it was back on the bike for final install.


I did use a borrowed chain tool once before I had my own. It broke. I
had to buy the guy a new one. Then I went back to my old method. The
chain tool I have now came with a bike repair tool kit, else I still
wouldn't have one.

I had a file once that I got from this crazy locomotive engineer. It
broke. I went back to using my chain tool to file parts. I had a hex
wrench break, too, so now I use vice grips -- or a hammer.


chains must be mystical. You can break a chain tool replacing one but
a nail and a stone works like a charm.

Well, as Joerg said, you should use a hardened nail. Those are what he
easily finds lying in the dirt alongside back country bike trails -


Not necessary on the trail. Any piece will do once the pin is
flattened. My old student's tool kit contained a hardened nail where I
ground the tip flat. Yes, with one of grandpa's files. On the trail I
don't care whether whatever metal piece I find is "one time use" but
at home I did.

Talk to scouts. They know how to make do with the minimum in gear and
tools yet live quite comfortably out in the wilderness.


unlike in hardware stores, where 99% of the nails are made of low carbon
steel.


You never saw nails suitable to be driven into concrete?

I may have to explain to you what 99% means.


Go to a (good) HW store and re-check that 99%.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 7:12:04 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/24/2017 1:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 15:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2017 11:49 AM, Duane wrote:
On 22/06/2017 11:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 7:08:28 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 07:02, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 6:27:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-22 05:45, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/22/2017 12:26 AM, James wrote:
On 22/06/17 01:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain
pin is no match. The filing exercise in the photo took just
a few strokes and not a lot of pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain pins. I
think you'll find (as James and I did) that no steel file
will put significant cuts in the pin. Abrasives (e.g.
aluminum oxide sandpaper, grinding wheels, diamond "files")
will cut the pin; but unless motorized, they'll cut it pretty
slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a rough
description of practical hardness commonly used in machine
shops. Steel that is "file hard" is too hard to be cut with a
file. It's even in dictionaries:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a chain pin.
There may be some exotic and rare files out there that I'm
not familiar with. But having worked in three machine shops
for various lengths of time, I can say that any normal
"professional grade" steel file attacking a chain pin will
give you scratches in the file and no significant change in
the chain pin.


But Joerg's files are "professional grade files inherited from
my grandpa. Some of which he inherited from great-grandpa."

They made steel much harder back then don't you know?


I wondered about that too. I wear out a first rate American made
file in 4 to 6 months of frame repair and nothing I work on is
hardened.


They made excellent files in the olden days. The ones I have are
quite worn. That is because grandpa was a steam locomotive engineer
and he bought tools that the railroad shop kicked out as too worn.
He also bought new ones but then only the best just like the
railroad shop did.

Until recently I had no chain tool and over my lifetime have
swapped out dozens of chains via this method:

1. Lay down the bike.

2. File down a pin so the punch or hardened nail would not slip
(which could result in a major ouch situation).

3. Place link on a large metal block, anvil, whatever. Place steel
nut underneath link. Nut must be larger than pin.

4. Drive out pin with punch and hammer or hardened nail and
hammer.

5. Do same with new chain to bring to required length. Mount chain,
push in the last pin, "caress" it with the hammer so it is firmly
holding but not too tight.

The only bikes that had removable links back in the old days in
Europe were single-gear classic ones. Road bikes usually didn't and
that was my favorite kind of bike (until mountain bikes appeared).

This is like fixing a car with a shovel. I bought my first chain tool
in the early '70s, and it cost me like $2. I couldn't imagine
removing or installing a chain with a hammer, nail and file -- and
presumably a block of wood or something to put under the chain when
it was back on the bike for final install.


I did use a borrowed chain tool once before I had my own. It broke. I
had to buy the guy a new one. Then I went back to my old method. The
chain tool I have now came with a bike repair tool kit, else I still
wouldn't have one.

I had a file once that I got from this crazy locomotive engineer. It
broke. I went back to using my chain tool to file parts. I had a hex
wrench break, too, so now I use vice grips -- or a hammer.


chains must be mystical. You can break a chain tool replacing one but
a nail and a stone works like a charm.

Well, as Joerg said, you should use a hardened nail. Those are what he
easily finds lying in the dirt alongside back country bike trails -


Not necessary on the trail. Any piece will do once the pin is flattened.
My old student's tool kit contained a hardened nail where I ground the
tip flat. Yes, with one of grandpa's files. On the trail I don't care
whether whatever metal piece I find is "one time use" but at home I did.

Talk to scouts. They know how to make do with the minimum in gear and
tools yet live quite comfortably out in the wilderness.


unlike in hardware stores, where 99% of the nails are made of low carbon
steel.


You never saw nails suitable to be driven into concrete?

I may have to explain to you what 99% means.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I think that you and Joerg who are both valued contributors should get over this friction that the two of you have for almost no reason. The whole thing started as an inferred slight. And then grew to traded insults. Both of you are better than that.