#11
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Chain Line
On Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 7:08:21 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 15/06/17 08:33, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-14 15:28, James wrote: On 15/06/17 06:31, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-13 19:09, John B. wrote: In a recent discussion I suggested changing from the old square tapered BB to a modern Shimano outboard bearing bracket. The argument was that this would destroy the perfect chain line of the original three piece BB. Now, I have changed back and forth between the original square tapered axle to the outboard bearing BB and to my recollection the chain line didn't seem to change noticeably. Over the weekend we took a trip "up country" to visit some of my wife's relatives and as we used my wife's car she drove. It is about 250 Km, one way, so I had a lot of time to think abut things and one of the things I thought about was how could I change bottom brackets with no appreciable difference in chain line. This morning I turned one of my bikes bottom up and did some measuring and it turns out that with the old fashioned three piece BB there is slightly over 10mm clearance between the inner edge of the crank arm and the outer edge of the BB. The outboard bearing "flanges" measured 12mm in thickness and the old sty;e BB flange is `1mm.. Thus the changing from the old style to the more modern BB results in very little, if any, difference in chain line. Certainly less then the difference between two cogs on the cassette. Granted that bicycles are all different but the above does explain why I, after switching from one type to the other, and back again, have seen no noticeable difference in chain line. The discussion you were referring to was about Shimano 600 gear which is what I have on my road bike. The clearance from the inner edge of the drive side crank to the outer surface of the BB is 3mm. Now assume your 12mm measurement minus the 1mm that the regular cartridge BB has. That's already 11mm of chain line offset. A lot. You could reduce the clearance to 2mm but that much wiggle room you really need for square taper and that would still leave you with a chain line 10mm off from where it was. On my previous frame, I migrated from Campagnolo square tapered BB & cranks to Campagnolo outboard bearing BB assy, and the chain line didn't shift 10mm. Did you buy new cranks? If not, was there sufficient clearance to make up for the added millimeter of the outboard bearing? On my bike there isn't. Is there an outboard BB bearing assembly that uses a square tapered axle? I don't know. I bought a Campag Ultra Torque crank & BB assy back in 2007-8. I've replaced the bearings once, about 5 years ago. No bearing slop noticeable yet. Why do you think you are special? See above. There simply is no room for another 11mm without the crank moving at least 10mm outward. Naturally, the goal was to keep the Shimano 600 cranks. Installing a UN55 internal cartridge bearing allowed me to do that and so that is what I did. So you think you're special because you want to keep cranks that aren't compatible. James - stay on track. This thread started with Joerg asking it the newer Shimano square taper BB with sealed bearings had the same taper as his original Shimano 600. Most of what he supposedly said is entirely made up. _I_ am the one that said that the newest hollow cranks are far better. Don't you people think it's about time to follow the subject and not some subjective ideas you have? |
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#12
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Chain Line
On Wed, 14 Jun 2017 20:38:04 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/14/2017 5:28 PM, James wrote: On 15/06/17 06:31, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-13 19:09, John B. wrote: In a recent discussion I suggested changing from the old square tapered BB to a modern Shimano outboard bearing bracket. The argument was that this would destroy the perfect chain line of the original three piece BB. Now, I have changed back and forth between the original square tapered axle to the outboard bearing BB and to my recollection the chain line didn't seem to change noticeably. Over the weekend we took a trip "up country" to visit some of my wife's relatives and as we used my wife's car she drove. It is about 250 Km, one way, so I had a lot of time to think abut things and one of the things I thought about was how could I change bottom brackets with no appreciable difference in chain line. This morning I turned one of my bikes bottom up and did some measuring and it turns out that with the old fashioned three piece BB there is slightly over 10mm clearance between the inner edge of the crank arm and the outer edge of the BB. The outboard bearing "flanges" measured 12mm in thickness and the old sty;e BB flange is `1mm.. Thus the changing from the old style to the more modern BB results in very little, if any, difference in chain line. Certainly less then the difference between two cogs on the cassette. Granted that bicycles are all different but the above does explain why I, after switching from one type to the other, and back again, have seen no noticeable difference in chain line. The discussion you were referring to was about Shimano 600 gear which is what I have on my road bike. The clearance from the inner edge of the drive side crank to the outer surface of the BB is 3mm. Now assume your 12mm measurement minus the 1mm that the regular cartridge BB has. That's already 11mm of chain line offset. A lot. You could reduce the clearance to 2mm but that much wiggle room you really need for square taper and that would still leave you with a chain line 10mm off from where it was. On my previous frame, I migrated from Campagnolo square tapered BB & cranks to Campagnolo outboard bearing BB assy, and the chain line didn't shift 10mm. Why do you think you are special? Chainline errors are entirely from not using the manufacturer's specified parts. Only a complete idiot would pull a functional spark plug from a V8 and drop it into a 4-cyl Asian econobox. Yet people mix arms and spindles which are ridiculously incompatible every day and then ride over here to complain that the crank's no good. Oy! p.s. Almost all derailleur systems will work well with +1mm/-1mm chainline error. Few can accept 10mm either way, that is a very large distance. I think I would have to be a bit picky here. A Big chain ring to a small cassette cog is going to be about 21 mm out of line, assuming that the chain line was initially aligned, big ring to 5th cog of a 9 speed cassette, and it still shifts. But, of course, if the chain line was initially 10 mm out of alignment then certainly shifting would be a bit "iffy" at least in one direction :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#13
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Chain Line
On 2017-06-14 19:08, James wrote:
On 15/06/17 08:33, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-14 15:28, James wrote: On 15/06/17 06:31, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-13 19:09, John B. wrote: In a recent discussion I suggested changing from the old square tapered BB to a modern Shimano outboard bearing bracket. The argument was that this would destroy the perfect chain line of the original three piece BB. Now, I have changed back and forth between the original square tapered axle to the outboard bearing BB and to my recollection the chain line didn't seem to change noticeably. Over the weekend we took a trip "up country" to visit some of my wife's relatives and as we used my wife's car she drove. It is about 250 Km, one way, so I had a lot of time to think abut things and one of the things I thought about was how could I change bottom brackets with no appreciable difference in chain line. This morning I turned one of my bikes bottom up and did some measuring and it turns out that with the old fashioned three piece BB there is slightly over 10mm clearance between the inner edge of the crank arm and the outer edge of the BB. The outboard bearing "flanges" measured 12mm in thickness and the old sty;e BB flange is `1mm.. Thus the changing from the old style to the more modern BB results in very little, if any, difference in chain line. Certainly less then the difference between two cogs on the cassette. Granted that bicycles are all different but the above does explain why I, after switching from one type to the other, and back again, have seen no noticeable difference in chain line. The discussion you were referring to was about Shimano 600 gear which is what I have on my road bike. The clearance from the inner edge of the drive side crank to the outer surface of the BB is 3mm. Now assume your 12mm measurement minus the 1mm that the regular cartridge BB has. That's already 11mm of chain line offset. A lot. You could reduce the clearance to 2mm but that much wiggle room you really need for square taper and that would still leave you with a chain line 10mm off from where it was. On my previous frame, I migrated from Campagnolo square tapered BB & cranks to Campagnolo outboard bearing BB assy, and the chain line didn't shift 10mm. Did you buy new cranks? If not, was there sufficient clearance to make up for the added millimeter of the outboard bearing? On my bike there isn't. Is there an outboard BB bearing assembly that uses a square tapered axle? I don't know. I bought a Campag Ultra Torque crank & BB assy back in 2007-8. I've replaced the bearings once, about 5 years ago. No bearing slop noticeable yet. Sure, if you buy matching cranks it's all fine. However, in the referenced thread it was not the objective to throw away a perfectly good set of cranks just because of a new BB. Five years is good but that depends on how many miles you put on, the amount of uphill sections and whether you usually spin or mash. Why do you think you are special? See above. There simply is no room for another 11mm without the crank moving at least 10mm outward. Naturally, the goal was to keep the Shimano 600 cranks. Installing a UN55 internal cartridge bearing allowed me to do that and so that is what I did. So you think you're special because you want to keep cranks that aren't compatible. I am not special but among the people who wish not to belong to a throw-away society. Good luck. Not needed. I received the new BB a while ago, installed it and all is well. Cost me all of $20. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#14
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Chain Line
On Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 11:54:46 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jun 2017 20:38:04 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 6/14/2017 5:28 PM, James wrote: On 15/06/17 06:31, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-13 19:09, John B. wrote: In a recent discussion I suggested changing from the old square tapered BB to a modern Shimano outboard bearing bracket. The argument was that this would destroy the perfect chain line of the original three piece BB. Now, I have changed back and forth between the original square tapered axle to the outboard bearing BB and to my recollection the chain line didn't seem to change noticeably. Over the weekend we took a trip "up country" to visit some of my wife's relatives and as we used my wife's car she drove. It is about 250 Km, one way, so I had a lot of time to think abut things and one of the things I thought about was how could I change bottom brackets with no appreciable difference in chain line. This morning I turned one of my bikes bottom up and did some measuring and it turns out that with the old fashioned three piece BB there is slightly over 10mm clearance between the inner edge of the crank arm and the outer edge of the BB. The outboard bearing "flanges" measured 12mm in thickness and the old sty;e BB flange is `1mm.. Thus the changing from the old style to the more modern BB results in very little, if any, difference in chain line. Certainly less then the difference between two cogs on the cassette. Granted that bicycles are all different but the above does explain why I, after switching from one type to the other, and back again, have seen no noticeable difference in chain line. The discussion you were referring to was about Shimano 600 gear which is what I have on my road bike. The clearance from the inner edge of the drive side crank to the outer surface of the BB is 3mm. Now assume your 12mm measurement minus the 1mm that the regular cartridge BB has. That's already 11mm of chain line offset. A lot. You could reduce the clearance to 2mm but that much wiggle room you really need for square taper and that would still leave you with a chain line 10mm off from where it was. On my previous frame, I migrated from Campagnolo square tapered BB & cranks to Campagnolo outboard bearing BB assy, and the chain line didn't shift 10mm. Why do you think you are special? Chainline errors are entirely from not using the manufacturer's specified parts. Only a complete idiot would pull a functional spark plug from a V8 and drop it into a 4-cyl Asian econobox. Yet people mix arms and spindles which are ridiculously incompatible every day and then ride over here to complain that the crank's no good. Oy! p.s. Almost all derailleur systems will work well with +1mm/-1mm chainline error. Few can accept 10mm either way, that is a very large distance. I think I would have to be a bit picky here. A Big chain ring to a small cassette cog is going to be about 21 mm out of line, assuming that the chain line was initially aligned, big ring to 5th cog of a 9 speed cassette, and it still shifts. But, of course, if the chain line was initially 10 mm out of alignment then certainly shifting would be a bit "iffy" at least in one direction :-) On a triple the middle ring is aligned with the 5th cog. |
#15
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Chain Line
On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 6:28:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-14 19:08, James wrote: On 15/06/17 08:33, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-14 15:28, James wrote: On 15/06/17 06:31, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-13 19:09, John B. wrote: In a recent discussion I suggested changing from the old square tapered BB to a modern Shimano outboard bearing bracket. The argument was that this would destroy the perfect chain line of the original three piece BB. Now, I have changed back and forth between the original square tapered axle to the outboard bearing BB and to my recollection the chain line didn't seem to change noticeably. Over the weekend we took a trip "up country" to visit some of my wife's relatives and as we used my wife's car she drove. It is about 250 Km, one way, so I had a lot of time to think abut things and one of the things I thought about was how could I change bottom brackets with no appreciable difference in chain line. This morning I turned one of my bikes bottom up and did some measuring and it turns out that with the old fashioned three piece BB there is slightly over 10mm clearance between the inner edge of the crank arm and the outer edge of the BB. The outboard bearing "flanges" measured 12mm in thickness and the old sty;e BB flange is `1mm.. Thus the changing from the old style to the more modern BB results in very little, if any, difference in chain line. Certainly less then the difference between two cogs on the cassette. Granted that bicycles are all different but the above does explain why I, after switching from one type to the other, and back again, have seen no noticeable difference in chain line. The discussion you were referring to was about Shimano 600 gear which is what I have on my road bike. The clearance from the inner edge of the drive side crank to the outer surface of the BB is 3mm. Now assume your 12mm measurement minus the 1mm that the regular cartridge BB has. That's already 11mm of chain line offset. A lot. You could reduce the clearance to 2mm but that much wiggle room you really need for square taper and that would still leave you with a chain line 10mm off from where it was. On my previous frame, I migrated from Campagnolo square tapered BB & cranks to Campagnolo outboard bearing BB assy, and the chain line didn't shift 10mm. Did you buy new cranks? If not, was there sufficient clearance to make up for the added millimeter of the outboard bearing? On my bike there isn't. Is there an outboard BB bearing assembly that uses a square tapered axle? I don't know. I bought a Campag Ultra Torque crank & BB assy back in 2007-8. I've replaced the bearings once, about 5 years ago. No bearing slop noticeable yet. Sure, if you buy matching cranks it's all fine. However, in the referenced thread it was not the objective to throw away a perfectly good set of cranks just because of a new BB. Five years is good but that depends on how many miles you put on, the amount of uphill sections and whether you usually spin or mash. Why do you think you are special? See above. There simply is no room for another 11mm without the crank moving at least 10mm outward. Naturally, the goal was to keep the Shimano 600 cranks. Installing a UN55 internal cartridge bearing allowed me to do that and so that is what I did. So you think you're special because you want to keep cranks that aren't compatible. I am not special but among the people who wish not to belong to a throw-away society. Good luck. Not needed. I received the new BB a while ago, installed it and all is well. Cost me all of $20. I'm still trying to figure out how the conversation got from your worrying about a 1 mm realignment to a 10 mm realignment. |
#17
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Chain Line
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#18
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Chain Line
On 15/06/17 23:28, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-14 19:08, James wrote: On 15/06/17 08:33, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-14 15:28, James wrote: On 15/06/17 06:31, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-13 19:09, John B. wrote: In a recent discussion I suggested changing from the old square tapered BB to a modern Shimano outboard bearing bracket. The argument was that this would destroy the perfect chain line of the original three piece BB. Now, I have changed back and forth between the original square tapered axle to the outboard bearing BB and to my recollection the chain line didn't seem to change noticeably. Over the weekend we took a trip "up country" to visit some of my wife's relatives and as we used my wife's car she drove. It is about 250 Km, one way, so I had a lot of time to think abut things and one of the things I thought about was how could I change bottom brackets with no appreciable difference in chain line. This morning I turned one of my bikes bottom up and did some measuring and it turns out that with the old fashioned three piece BB there is slightly over 10mm clearance between the inner edge of the crank arm and the outer edge of the BB. The outboard bearing "flanges" measured 12mm in thickness and the old sty;e BB flange is `1mm.. Thus the changing from the old style to the more modern BB results in very little, if any, difference in chain line. Certainly less then the difference between two cogs on the cassette. Granted that bicycles are all different but the above does explain why I, after switching from one type to the other, and back again, have seen no noticeable difference in chain line. The discussion you were referring to was about Shimano 600 gear which is what I have on my road bike. The clearance from the inner edge of the drive side crank to the outer surface of the BB is 3mm. Now assume your 12mm measurement minus the 1mm that the regular cartridge BB has. That's already 11mm of chain line offset. A lot. You could reduce the clearance to 2mm but that much wiggle room you really need for square taper and that would still leave you with a chain line 10mm off from where it was. On my previous frame, I migrated from Campagnolo square tapered BB & cranks to Campagnolo outboard bearing BB assy, and the chain line didn't shift 10mm. Did you buy new cranks? If not, was there sufficient clearance to make up for the added millimeter of the outboard bearing? On my bike there isn't. Is there an outboard BB bearing assembly that uses a square tapered axle? I don't know. I bought a Campag Ultra Torque crank & BB assy back in 2007-8. I've replaced the bearings once, about 5 years ago. No bearing slop noticeable yet. Sure, if you buy matching cranks it's all fine. However, in the referenced thread it was not the objective to throw away a perfectly good set of cranks just because of a new BB. Five years is good but that depends on how many miles you put on, the amount of uphill sections and whether you usually spin or mash. In recent years I raced A grade veterans (over 35) and generally ride over 10,000km per year. I often head for the hills. I use 175mm cranks and my cadence is usually around 90 on the flat and less while climbing. Where I live now, a gentle hill is 5%, and most are up around 10%. I don't think you could claim I give the BB an easy time. I used to kill square taper cartridge BBs within a season - Shimano and Campagnolo. Why do you think you are special? See above. There simply is no room for another 11mm without the crank moving at least 10mm outward. Naturally, the goal was to keep the Shimano 600 cranks. Installing a UN55 internal cartridge bearing allowed me to do that and so that is what I did. So you think you're special because you want to keep cranks that aren't compatible. I am not special but among the people who wish not to belong to a throw-away society. Good luck. Not needed. I received the new BB a while ago, installed it and all is well. Cost me all of $20. As I said, good luck. It will last a long time if you don't use it. -- JS |
#19
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Chain Line
On 2017-06-15 15:42, James wrote:
On 15/06/17 23:28, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-14 19:08, James wrote: On 15/06/17 08:33, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-14 15:28, James wrote: On 15/06/17 06:31, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-13 19:09, John B. wrote: In a recent discussion I suggested changing from the old square tapered BB to a modern Shimano outboard bearing bracket. The argument was that this would destroy the perfect chain line of the original three piece BB. Now, I have changed back and forth between the original square tapered axle to the outboard bearing BB and to my recollection the chain line didn't seem to change noticeably. Over the weekend we took a trip "up country" to visit some of my wife's relatives and as we used my wife's car she drove. It is about 250 Km, one way, so I had a lot of time to think abut things and one of the things I thought about was how could I change bottom brackets with no appreciable difference in chain line. This morning I turned one of my bikes bottom up and did some measuring and it turns out that with the old fashioned three piece BB there is slightly over 10mm clearance between the inner edge of the crank arm and the outer edge of the BB. The outboard bearing "flanges" measured 12mm in thickness and the old sty;e BB flange is `1mm.. Thus the changing from the old style to the more modern BB results in very little, if any, difference in chain line. Certainly less then the difference between two cogs on the cassette. Granted that bicycles are all different but the above does explain why I, after switching from one type to the other, and back again, have seen no noticeable difference in chain line. The discussion you were referring to was about Shimano 600 gear which is what I have on my road bike. The clearance from the inner edge of the drive side crank to the outer surface of the BB is 3mm. Now assume your 12mm measurement minus the 1mm that the regular cartridge BB has. That's already 11mm of chain line offset. A lot. You could reduce the clearance to 2mm but that much wiggle room you really need for square taper and that would still leave you with a chain line 10mm off from where it was. On my previous frame, I migrated from Campagnolo square tapered BB & cranks to Campagnolo outboard bearing BB assy, and the chain line didn't shift 10mm. Did you buy new cranks? If not, was there sufficient clearance to make up for the added millimeter of the outboard bearing? On my bike there isn't. Is there an outboard BB bearing assembly that uses a square tapered axle? I don't know. I bought a Campag Ultra Torque crank & BB assy back in 2007-8. I've replaced the bearings once, about 5 years ago. No bearing slop noticeable yet. Sure, if you buy matching cranks it's all fine. However, in the referenced thread it was not the objective to throw away a perfectly good set of cranks just because of a new BB. Five years is good but that depends on how many miles you put on, the amount of uphill sections and whether you usually spin or mash. In recent years I raced A grade veterans (over 35) and generally ride over 10,000km per year. I often head for the hills. I use 175mm cranks and my cadence is usually around 90 on the flat and less while climbing. Where I live now, a gentle hill is 5%, and most are up around 10%. My cadence is lower but yes, that is certainly hard use. I don't think you could claim I give the BB an easy time. I used to kill square taper cartridge BBs within a season - Shimano and Campagnolo. Same here, one year used to be it for BBs. This one I rode longer but I pushed it well past the point where others would call it shot. Where you had to trim the front derailer when shifting more than one cog in back because of the chain ring sway. Without friction shifters I couldn't have kept using it. Why do you think you are special? See above. There simply is no room for another 11mm without the crank moving at least 10mm outward. Naturally, the goal was to keep the Shimano 600 cranks. Installing a UN55 internal cartridge bearing allowed me to do that and so that is what I did. So you think you're special because you want to keep cranks that aren't compatible. I am not special but among the people who wish not to belong to a throw-away society. Good luck. Not needed. I received the new BB a while ago, installed it and all is well. Cost me all of $20. As I said, good luck. It will last a long time if you don't use it. You think the UN55 BBs aren't up to snuff? From what I read it should hold up quite well. It is heavy which is one reason why some pros frowned a bit but weight is of no concern to me. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#20
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Chain Line
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 06:28:39 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2017-06-14 19:08, James wrote: On 15/06/17 08:33, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-14 15:28, James wrote: On 15/06/17 06:31, Joerg wrote: On 2017-06-13 19:09, John B. wrote: In a recent discussion I suggested changing from the old square tapered BB to a modern Shimano outboard bearing bracket. The argument was that this would destroy the perfect chain line of the original three piece BB. Now, I have changed back and forth between the original square tapered axle to the outboard bearing BB and to my recollection the chain line didn't seem to change noticeably. Over the weekend we took a trip "up country" to visit some of my wife's relatives and as we used my wife's car she drove. It is about 250 Km, one way, so I had a lot of time to think abut things and one of the things I thought about was how could I change bottom brackets with no appreciable difference in chain line. This morning I turned one of my bikes bottom up and did some measuring and it turns out that with the old fashioned three piece BB there is slightly over 10mm clearance between the inner edge of the crank arm and the outer edge of the BB. The outboard bearing "flanges" measured 12mm in thickness and the old sty;e BB flange is `1mm.. Thus the changing from the old style to the more modern BB results in very little, if any, difference in chain line. Certainly less then the difference between two cogs on the cassette. Granted that bicycles are all different but the above does explain why I, after switching from one type to the other, and back again, have seen no noticeable difference in chain line. The discussion you were referring to was about Shimano 600 gear which is what I have on my road bike. The clearance from the inner edge of the drive side crank to the outer surface of the BB is 3mm. Now assume your 12mm measurement minus the 1mm that the regular cartridge BB has. That's already 11mm of chain line offset. A lot. You could reduce the clearance to 2mm but that much wiggle room you really need for square taper and that would still leave you with a chain line 10mm off from where it was. On my previous frame, I migrated from Campagnolo square tapered BB & cranks to Campagnolo outboard bearing BB assy, and the chain line didn't shift 10mm. Did you buy new cranks? If not, was there sufficient clearance to make up for the added millimeter of the outboard bearing? On my bike there isn't. Is there an outboard BB bearing assembly that uses a square tapered axle? I don't know. I bought a Campag Ultra Torque crank & BB assy back in 2007-8. I've replaced the bearings once, about 5 years ago. No bearing slop noticeable yet. Sure, if you buy matching cranks it's all fine. However, in the referenced thread it was not the objective to throw away a perfectly good set of cranks just because of a new BB. Five years is good but that depends on how many miles you put on, the amount of uphill sections and whether you usually spin or mash. Why do you think you are special? See above. There simply is no room for another 11mm without the crank moving at least 10mm outward. Naturally, the goal was to keep the Shimano 600 cranks. Installing a UN55 internal cartridge bearing allowed me to do that and so that is what I did. So you think you're special because you want to keep cranks that aren't compatible. I am not special but among the people who wish not to belong to a throw-away society. Good luck. Not needed. I received the new BB a while ago, installed it and all is well. Cost me all of $20. I don't understand this continual complaining about prices. Here you brag that you only spent $20 and in another post you said, "If I can find decently priced cassette", and yet when I suggest that you go into the bike carrier business as you claimed that everyone wanted a rack like you made you said about you already had plenty of money. -- Cheers, John B. |
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