A more reasonable way of EPO testing

"Curtis L. Russell" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 May 2007 19:53:04 GMT, "Caroline"
wrote:

For all of these drugs there are easy blood tests to show whether they are
in balance, or "within normal limits." Soooo.... Wouldn't it be so much
easier simply to collect pre-race blood samples from all the athletes and
have them analyzed for whatever may be outside normal limits? Simply
announce that if your blood does not meet "race standards" you will be
disqualified. Period. Then who cares if people take EPOs? If they take
enough to give them an unfair edge, they're out of the game!

For all of the drugs? Some of the tests take three days if the lab is
ready for them. Most take several hours at a minimum because the
machinery necessary to make all testing equal has to be set up first
(single assay testing in lots of over 100 isn't a great way to prep
for the later legal battles), followed by the actual testing. You'd
still be disqualifying people hours and days after the day's racing.


I'm not following how this relates to a "normal limits" overall blood
profile.



FWIW, it still won't be cheap - some test kits - if you do all the
drugs - will cost you in the hundreds for the kit alone, if done in
batches. That will be for one drug in some cases, per person...

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...


Would it be absolutely neccessary to test *every* rider? I don't think so.
There would have to be a margin that would test any riders who might slip in
as top finishers late in the game, but no reason to test all.

My primary point is that there has to be a better way than what's happening
now.

Caroline

"Sandy" wrote in message
...
Dans le message de news:KEz7i.1902$d63.1325@trnddc06,
Caroline a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Seriously, if *any* control measures are to be placed successfully,
there must be ways for those who fall outside the norms to appeal. If
someone can document that they have a rare condition, an exception
could be made.

Google "Santhi Soundarajan" and see how natural rare conditions are
treated by the IOC.

--
Sandy

Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
Je veux seulement ne pas être là
quand elle arrivera.


'-) LOL! And there are how many transgender competitors in cylcing? I
*probably* wouldn't have much of a problem with a female to male competitor
competing with males, but a male to female competing with females could have
an unfair edge. Just my guess.

Caroliine

Dans le message de news:2KF7i.6538$XC3.500@trnddc04,
Caroline a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
"Sandy" wrote in message
...
Dans le message de news:KEz7i.1902$d63.1325@trnddc06,
Caroline a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Seriously, if *any* control measures are to be placed successfully,
there must be ways for those who fall outside the norms to appeal.
If someone can document that they have a rare condition, an
exception could be made.

Google "Santhi Soundarajan" and see how natural rare conditions are
treated by the IOC.

--
Sandy

Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
Je veux seulement ne pas être là
quand elle arrivera.


'-) LOL! And there are how many transgender competitors in cylcing?
I *probably* wouldn't have much of a problem with a female to male
competitor competing with males, but a male to female competing with
females could have an unfair edge. Just my guess.

Caroliine

You didn't read enough, Caroline. She is not transgendered.

"Caroline" wrote in message
news:KEz7i.1902$d63.1325@trnddc06...

"Simon Brooke" wrote in message
...
in message Akl6i.2128$9G3.1906@trnddc07, Caroline
') wrote:

For all of these drugs there are easy blood tests to show whether they
are in balance, or "within normal limits." Soooo.... Wouldn't it be so
much easier simply to collect pre-race blood samples from all the
athletes and have them analyzed for whatever may be outside normal
limits? Simply announce that if your blood does not meet "race
standards" you will be disqualified. Period. Then who cares if people
take EPOs? If they take enough to give them an unfair edge, they're out
of the game!

I instinctively dislike your idea, but it does have merits.

I dislike it because it might unfairly penalise people who through
perfectly natural accidents of genetics has parameters which are outside
your 'normal limits' - and, indeed, might penalise them even if their
genetic peculiarity were not 'performance enhancing'. Such a person might
never be able to compete, because it might be impossible to get their
body
tuned within the 'normal limits' which had been defined.


And we all know there must be at least 250,000 cyclists world wide who
fall into this category, right? '-)

Seriously, if *any* control measures are to be placed successfully, there
must be ways for those who fall outside the norms to appeal. If someone
can document that they have a rare condition, an exception could be made.

However, it would have the great merit of not caring whether your
enhanced
haematocrit was caused by physical apparatus (an altitude tent) or
chemical apparatus (EPO). I find those athletes who rail against 'drug
cheats' while using altitude tents nauseatingly hypocritical.

Well, not so much. You don't inject altitude tents into your body. But
maybe I'm unaware of the latest trends?

Quit being logical Caroline. What Simon is saying is that it is OK for teams
to train at high altitude and acquire all the benefits of such training but
it is artificially incorrect to sleep in a hypoxia tent for 25% of the cost.
That way we can guarantee that only the largest teams with the best laid
plans can hope to field the strongest riders.

"Sandy" wrote in message
...
Dans le message de news:2KF7i.6538$XC3.500@trnddc04,
Caroline a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
"Sandy" wrote in message
...
Dans le message de news:KEz7i.1902$d63.1325@trnddc06,
Caroline a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Seriously, if *any* control measures are to be placed successfully,
there must be ways for those who fall outside the norms to appeal.
If someone can document that they have a rare condition, an
exception could be made.

Google "Santhi Soundarajan" and see how natural rare conditions are
treated by the IOC.

--
Sandy

Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
Je veux seulement ne pas être là
quand elle arrivera.


'-) LOL! And there are how many transgender competitors in cylcing?
I *probably* wouldn't have much of a problem with a female to male
competitor competing with males, but a male to female competing with
females could have an unfair edge. Just my guess.

Caroliine

You didn't read enough, Caroline. She is not transgendered.

She is, however, a case that would require special dispensation - a genetic
man who never developed into either a man or a woman due to a known medical
condition in which the body doesn't respond to testosterone in early
childhood.

What is important is that Santhi has all of the physical capacity OF A WOMAN
because the testosterone she produces cannot be used by her body. She should
be given a special case dispensation by the sports authorities.

On Thu, 31 May 2007 19:54:38 GMT, "Caroline" wrote:


"Sandy" wrote in message
...
Dans le message de news:KEz7i.1902$d63.1325@trnddc06,
Caroline a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Seriously, if *any* control measures are to be placed successfully,
there must be ways for those who fall outside the norms to appeal. If
someone can document that they have a rare condition, an exception
could be made.

Google "Santhi Soundarajan" and see how natural rare conditions are
treated by the IOC.

--
Sandy

Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
Je veux seulement ne pas être là
quand elle arrivera.


'-) LOL! And there are how many transgender competitors in cylcing? I
*probably* wouldn't have much of a problem with a female to male competitor
competing with males, but a male to female competing with females could have
an unfair edge. Just my guess.

The only one I'm aware of is the Canadian downhill MTB champ.

I'm sure that miserable creature has all sorts of problems in life, but my
sympathy / pity doesn't extend to allowing her to ruin women's sports.

Ron

"Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote in message
link.net...
"Caroline" wrote in message
news:KEz7i.1902$d63.1325@trnddc06...

"Simon Brooke" wrote in message
...
in message Akl6i.2128$9G3.1906@trnddc07, Caroline
') wrote:

For all of these drugs there are easy blood tests to show whether they
are in balance, or "within normal limits." Soooo.... Wouldn't it be so
much easier simply to collect pre-race blood samples from all the
athletes and have them analyzed for whatever may be outside normal
limits? Simply announce that if your blood does not meet "race
standards" you will be disqualified. Period. Then who cares if people
take EPOs? If they take enough to give them an unfair edge, they're out
of the game!

I instinctively dislike your idea, but it does have merits.

I dislike it because it might unfairly penalise people who through
perfectly natural accidents of genetics has parameters which are outside
your 'normal limits' - and, indeed, might penalise them even if their
genetic peculiarity were not 'performance enhancing'. Such a person
might
never be able to compete, because it might be impossible to get their
body
tuned within the 'normal limits' which had been defined.


And we all know there must be at least 250,000 cyclists world wide who
fall into this category, right? '-)

Seriously, if *any* control measures are to be placed successfully, there
must be ways for those who fall outside the norms to appeal. If someone
can document that they have a rare condition, an exception could be made.

However, it would have the great merit of not caring whether your
enhanced
haematocrit was caused by physical apparatus (an altitude tent) or
chemical apparatus (EPO). I find those athletes who rail against 'drug
cheats' while using altitude tents nauseatingly hypocritical.

Well, not so much. You don't inject altitude tents into your body. But
maybe I'm unaware of the latest trends?

Quit being logical Caroline. What Simon is saying is that it is OK for
teams to train at high altitude and acquire all the benefits of such
training but it is artificially incorrect to sleep in a hypoxia tent for
25% of the cost. That way we can guarantee that only the largest teams
with the best laid plans can hope to field the strongest riders.


I fully understand what Simon is saying, and "logic" has nothing to do with
it. The problem is with the tacit approval of altitude tents that came from
the IOC when they allowed coaches to modify dorms/housing to give cyclists
an altitude edge during the games in Japan. I objected at the time that
they were opening a can of worms, and so they have. The problem is that
once worms get out and start burrowing, it's damned hard to catch them all
and put them back.

But the fact remains that there is, in my opinion, a huge difference between
doing something to force your body to adapt and perform better using the
body's own natural adpative mechanisms and putting chemicals inside your
body to accomplish the same goal.

Caroline

"Sandy" wrote in message
...
Dans le message de news:2KF7i.6538$XC3.500@trnddc04,
Caroline a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
"Sandy" wrote in message
...
Dans le message de news:KEz7i.1902$d63.1325@trnddc06,
Caroline a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Seriously, if *any* control measures are to be placed successfully,
there must be ways for those who fall outside the norms to appeal.
If someone can document that they have a rare condition, an
exception could be made.

Google "Santhi Soundarajan" and see how natural rare conditions are
treated by the IOC.

--
Sandy

Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
Je veux seulement ne pas être là
quand elle arrivera.


'-) LOL! And there are how many transgender competitors in cylcing?
I *probably* wouldn't have much of a problem with a female to male
competitor competing with males, but a male to female competing with
females could have an unfair edge. Just my guess.

Caroliine

You didn't read enough, Caroline. She is not transgendered.


Sorry. "Transgendered" seemed as good a word choice as "hermaphrodite" or
"chromasomally challenged." Whatever label is used, she is an anomally.
The problem appears to be that the gender test is not universally
administered, so why is she subjected to it when there doesn't appear to be
(in my opinion) enough collective information to show what the "normal
limits" are? But then, where is it written that life is fair?

Caroline

"RonSonic" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 19:54:38 GMT, "Caroline"
wrote:


"Sandy" wrote in message
...
Dans le message de news:KEz7i.1902$d63.1325@trnddc06,
Caroline a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Seriously, if *any* control measures are to be placed successfully,
there must be ways for those who fall outside the norms to appeal. If
someone can document that they have a rare condition, an exception
could be made.

Google "Santhi Soundarajan" and see how natural rare conditions are
treated by the IOC.

--
Sandy

Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
Je veux seulement ne pas être là
quand elle arrivera.


'-) LOL! And there are how many transgender competitors in cylcing? I
*probably* wouldn't have much of a problem with a female to male
competitor
competing with males, but a male to female competing with females could
have
an unfair edge. Just my guess.

The only one I'm aware of is the Canadian downhill MTB champ.

I'm sure that miserable creature has all sorts of problems in life, but my
sympathy / pity doesn't extend to allowing her to ruin women's sports.

Ron


Don't forget Renee Richards in tennis. But then, tennis seems a bit less
uptight than a lot of other sports.

Caroline

Tom Kunich Wrote:
"Sandy" wrote in message
...
Dans le message de news:2KF7i.6538$XC3.500@trnddc04,
Caroline a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
"Sandy" wrote in message
...
Dans le message de news:KEz7i.1902$d63.1325@trnddc06,
Caroline a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Seriously, if *any* control measures are to be placed
successfully,
there must be ways for those who fall outside the norms to
appeal.
If someone can document that they have a rare condition, an
exception could be made.

Google "Santhi Soundarajan" and see how natural rare conditions
are
treated by the IOC.

--
Sandy

Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
Je veux seulement ne pas être là
quand elle arrivera.


'-) LOL! And there are how many transgender competitors in
cylcing?
I *probably* wouldn't have much of a problem with a female to male
competitor competing with males, but a male to female competing
with
females could have an unfair edge. Just my guess.

Caroliine

You didn't read enough, Caroline. She is not transgendered.

She is, however, a case that would require special dispensation - a
genetic
man who never developed into either a man or a woman due to a known
medical
condition in which the body doesn't respond to testosterone in early
childhood.

What is important is that Santhi has all of the physical capacity OF A
WOMAN
because the testosterone she produces cannot be used by her body. She
should
be given a special case dispensation by the sports authorities.

Sounds like she isn't a "genetic man" either. As best I understand it
she is XXYY although one story believes XXY.

Has the IOC itself addressed this issue or merely the Olympic Council
of Asia?


--
meb