Nearly got into an accident

Roger Zoul wrote:

no, she was just plain old stupid, she went into the other lane
to pass me then braked making a sharp turn right in front of
me; I was doing about 35kph when this happened; there was no
reason she had to pass me

When many people see a bicycle ahead of them, they've just gotta
get ahead of it. They've /just gotta/. It's all really quite
predictable and expectable. It's like some sort of innate
instinct people have. Even fellow cyclists aren't immune to
this effect -- if you're stopped at a red traffic light, some of
them will butt-in in front of you and the stop line, to wait out
the light. And if you're walking your bike on the sidewalk,
pedestrians behind you will bust their asses to get ahead of
you.

I don't know why it is, but so many people see bicycles as
obstructions and obstacles, even if you're going faster than
they are. Even if they're riding bikes themselves. When riders
realize this, we become armed with an enhanced ability to
interact with, and even predict the movements of surrounding
traffic.

So, there actually /is/ a reason she "had" to pass you -- it was
pathologically hardwired in her psyche.

As you said, "Even if they're riding bikes themselves." This is
apparent when I read of other car/bicycle interactions on this
NG. I think many wreck.bike readers should take lessons from
bike messengers who don't have these problems. In city traffic,
I have been riding in that style for many years without problem.
I am surprised that police cruisers ignore my law violations (as
righteous bicyclists call it). On top of that, as I reported on
one of these topics, I found London (GB) traffic even more
accommodating in that matter.

I fear the tone of my posts might sound like I'm calling you
stupid; please believe me, I have no such intention.

Not to worry, the "take the lane" riders volunteer to raise their
hands when a roll call of stupid riders is taken. I don't
understand why so many riders feel so superior to their fellow
humans when riding bicycles.

The driver who cut you off was being stupid, because she was
acting in a thoughtless, "reptilian brain" mode. I'm just
saying: that's how a lot of people act on the streets. It
doesn't hurt to be aware of that. We can often even use it to
our advantage. I call it "reading their minds" but it really
isn't anything so esoteric. In fact it's dirt simple. People
are so predictable. That's how advertising agencies and casinos
make so much money.

Well said!

That said, there certainly are occasions where synchronicity
works against us, and we wind up as sitting ducks for
inescapably imminent consequences that seem to be aimed by Fate
directly at us.

I'm glad you came out of the incident unscathed.

Unscathed, but was anything learned? In such a position I don't
watch the car but rather the driver's head and direction of
attention as well as the steering angle of the cars wheels... and
don't wear headphones because there is much information about
cars approaching from behind in tire and engine sounds.

Hmm... so you don't wear a mirror but yet you have the ability to
watch every driver's head and direction of attention as well as
the steering angle of the cars wheels... in traffic for all cars
coming up behind you? I guess this is an example of the Jobst
Brandt superiority at work.

Stop concocting fairy tales. Cars behind cannot cut off a
bicyclist, not until the car is ahead or at least abreast of the
bicycle. It is at this time that critical observations can be
made. A mirror is not useful in assessing when a driver will make
a right turn or dive into a parking space, but careful observations
can. I'll bet you've never seen a city bike messenger with a rear
view mirror.

Stop concocting fairy tales. When a car is passing you up you
cannot see the drivers head and direction of attention as well as
steering angle of cars wheels in such a fashion as to avoid the
right hook. And then do this repeatedly for car after car in
traffic situations. Unless, of course, you are some kind of human
cybernetic organism.

Name calling will get you nowhere, but meanwhile you might reconsider
your approach.

I think you misconstrue the event. A bicyclist is not constantly at a
right turn intersection and only when the car is in a position to make
such a move does one need to observe these things. When a car tries
to dive into a curb parking space, speed must be far slower, so that
presents no problem for an aware rider. From what you write I take it
you are not quick enough to sense what a driver is doing. As I said,
a bike messenger observes these things often at great speed. I would
long ago have been under some car or truck's wheels if I didn't
emulate that style as I ride through dense urban areas.

Jobst Brandt

snip
Traffic on local main streets
:: don't reach 20mph most of the time. On rare occasions I get crowded
:: by drifting drivers, so I slap the car on the roof as a wake up. It
:: works.
::
:: Jobst Brandt

Ah, that confirms my suspicion that you are thinking only of dense
inner-city traffic. From your other posts, I couldn't find any common ground
with my situation---being on a suburban street with "loose", not dense
traffic, with a left lane the driver could pull into, and the speed of
traffic is 40 mph. Most people who have been posting and your posts have
been talking about two different scenarios.

There is no time to scrutinize drivers' intentions at 40 mph.

Pat in TX

On Dec 15, 2:43*am, wrote:
Roger Zoul wrote:
no, she was just plain old stupid, she went into the other lane
to pass me then braked making a sharp turn right in front of
me; I was doing about 35kph when this happened; there was no
reason she had to pass me
When many people see a bicycle ahead of them, they've just gotta
get ahead of it. *They've /just gotta/. *It's all really quite
predictable and expectable. *It's like some sort of innate
instinct people have. *Even fellow cyclists aren't immune to
this effect -- if you're stopped at a red traffic light, some of
them will butt-in in front of you and the stop line, to wait out
the light. *And if you're walking your bike on the sidewalk,
pedestrians behind you will bust their asses to get ahead of
you.
I don't know why it is, but so many people see bicycles as
obstructions and obstacles, even if you're going faster than
they are. *Even if they're riding bikes themselves. *When riders
realize this, we become armed with an enhanced ability to
interact with, and even predict the movements of surrounding
traffic.
So, there actually /is/ a reason she "had" to pass you -- it was
pathologically hardwired in her psyche.
As you said, "Even if they're riding bikes themselves." *This is
apparent when I read of other car/bicycle interactions on this
NG. *I think many wreck.bike readers should take lessons from
bike messengers who don't have these problems. *In city traffic,
I have been riding in that style for many years without problem.
I am surprised that police cruisers ignore my law violations (as
righteous bicyclists call it). *On top of that, as I reported on
one of these topics, I found London (GB) traffic even more
accommodating in that matter.
I fear the tone of my posts might sound like I'm calling you
stupid; please believe me, I have no such intention.
Not to worry, the "take the lane" riders volunteer to raise their
hands when a roll call of stupid riders is taken. *I don't
understand why so many riders feel so superior to their fellow
humans when riding bicycles.
The driver who cut you off was being stupid, because she was
acting in a thoughtless, "reptilian brain" mode. *I'm just
saying: that's how a lot of people act on the streets. *It
doesn't hurt to be aware of that. *We can often even use it to
our advantage. *I call it "reading their minds" but it really
isn't anything so esoteric. *In fact it's dirt simple. *People
are so predictable. *That's how advertising agencies and casinos
make so much money.
Well said!
That said, there certainly are occasions where synchronicity
works against us, and we wind up as sitting ducks for
inescapably imminent consequences that seem to be aimed by Fate
directly at us.
I'm glad you came out of the incident unscathed.
Unscathed, but was anything learned? *In such a position I don't
watch the car but rather the driver's head and direction of
attention as well as the steering angle of the cars wheels... and
don't wear headphones because there is much information about
cars approaching from behind in tire and engine sounds.
Hmm... so you don't wear a mirror but yet you have the ability to
watch every driver's head and direction of attention as well as
the steering angle of the cars wheels... in traffic for all cars
coming up behind you? *I guess this is an example of the Jobst
Brandt superiority at work.
Stop concocting fairy tales. *Cars behind cannot cut off a
bicyclist, not until the car is ahead or at least abreast of the
bicycle. *It is at this time that critical observations can be
made. *A mirror is not useful in assessing when a driver will make
a right turn or dive into a parking space, but careful observations
can. *I'll bet you've never seen a city bike messenger with a rear
view mirror.
Stop concocting fairy tales. *When a car is passing you up you
cannot see the drivers head and direction of attention as well as
steering angle of cars wheels in such a fashion as to avoid the
right hook. *And then do this repeatedly for car after car in
traffic situations. *Unless, of course, you are some kind of human
cybernetic organism.

Name calling will get you nowhere, but meanwhile you might reconsider
your approach.

I think you misconstrue the event. *A bicyclist is not constantly at a
right turn intersection and only when the car is in a position to make
such a move does one need to observe these things. *When a car tries
to dive into a curb parking space, speed must be far slower, so that
presents no problem for an aware rider. *From what you write I take it
you are not quick enough to sense what a driver is doing. *As I said,
a bike messenger observes these things often at great speed. *I would
long ago have been under some car or truck's wheels if I didn't
emulate that style as I ride through dense urban areas.

Jobst Brandt- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

the difference is that bike couriers tend to ride in the city core
where there is a lot of traffic, cars, delivery vehicles, buses and or
street cars, pedistrians and other bikers. the vehicular traffic is
consequently more cautious and slower paced, bikers are thus going at
about the same speed as cars and the speed difference being less have
a lot more time to react to situations. Beyond the downtown core, as
in my case, I was heading out on a main throughfare mid-afternoon,
beginning of the rush hour; traffic was very steady and also in a
hurry (to beat the rush) I would estimate it was going about 50-60+
kph to my 35. In addition, I was a top bike courier for 4 years; the
skills aquired there really only help in that environment "when you
are expecting it"; most accidents occur in my experience when least
expected- which is why when driving or cycling I am extra aware ( read
slightly scared) when it's a nice day and everything is going great.

On Dec 14, 10:18*pm, wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

Jobst Brandt wrote:
I'll bet you've never seen a city bike messenger with a rear view
mirror.
I've also seen them eschew multiple gears and brakes. *No thanks,
they're not my role models.

I don't see why you think I am suggesting them as role models.

?? Your statement about their not using mirrors, and your urging us
to watch some bicycle messenger videos, seemed to indicate that. If
not, I missed your point - and I suspect others did, too.

*The
point is that with a degree of natural skills the apparent hazard of
bicycling is not what is presented here. *It can be done and that it
even works without gears or brakes underscores that.

If your better equipped bicycle doesn't meet the demand then the
failure must be elsewhere.

If I ever have such a failure, I may briefly consider what you've
said. But after 30+ years of adult cycling, I have no fear of
"apparent hazards," and I'm reasonably sure my techniques and
equipment are satisfactory.

- Frank Krygowski

Pat who? wrote:

snip

Traffic on local main streets doesn't reach 20mph most of the time.
On rare occasions I get crowded by drifting drivers, so I slap the
car on the roof as a wake up. It works.

Ah, that confirms my suspicion that you are thinking only of dense
inner-city traffic. From your other posts, I couldn't find any
common ground with my situation being on a suburban street with
"loose", not dense traffic, with a left lane the driver could pull
into, and the speed of traffic is 40 mph. Most people who have been
posting and your posts have been talking about two different
scenarios.

Stop being suspicious and don't expect many riders to feel that your
problem is theirs as well.

There is no time to scrutinize drivers' intentions at 40 mph.

You can't have it both ways. No one makes right turns, of the kind
you described, at 40mph. At that speed and above, a car gives plenty
of warning that a turning maneuver is anticipated because the rushing
sound of the approach dies down as the driver brakes for the turn.
Slowing down must occur a reasonable distance from the corner so,
unless you are asleep, you should be warned.

Stop whining and get with the program, and don't "take the lane" in 40
mph traffic to show those "stupid drivers" how they should drive.
They hate it and often respond in kind.

Jobst Brandt

::
::: Ah, that confirms my suspicion that you are thinking only of dense
::: inner-city traffic. From your other posts, I couldn't find any
::: common ground with my situation being on a suburban street with
::: "loose", not dense traffic, with a left lane the driver could pull
::: into, and the speed of traffic is 40 mph. Most people who have been
::: posting and your posts have been talking about two different
::: scenarios.
::
:: Stop being suspicious and don't expect many riders to feel that your
:: problem is theirs as well.

Stop calling names. It does NOT tend to convince others to agree with you. I
am suprised you haven't discovered that in all of your years on this earth.


::
::: There is no time to scrutinize drivers' intentions at 40 mph.
::
:: You can't have it both ways. No one makes right turns, of the kind
:: you described, at 40mph. At that speed and above, a car gives plenty
:: of warning that a turning maneuver is anticipated because the rushing
:: sound of the approach dies down as the driver brakes for the turn.
:: Slowing down must occur a reasonable distance from the corner so,
:: unless you are asleep, you should be warned.

Did I mention I live in Texas? That is important, because it is windy here!
Yesterday, we had "normal" winds at 35 mph with gusts above that. I might
have also mentioned that this teenager came up from behind me, going 40 mph
(the speed limit on that road) and then at the last second slowed and turned
right. I did mention that the elderly woman sitting at the stop sign was
astonished, did I not? I doubt she would have been that way if a driver had
merely been going 20 or less.


:: Stop whining and get with the program, and don't "take the lane" in
:: 40 mph traffic to show those "stupid drivers" how they should drive.
:: They hate it and often respond in kind.
::
:: Jobst Brandt

"Whining-- a sing-song response." Therefore, how you can say someone is
"whining" in print? I think you need to go back and familiarize yourself
with a dictionary. Nowhere did I say that the drivers were "stupid." In
fact, I wrote that the vast majority just automatically move into the left
lane to pass. If you call "taking the lane" when I wrote I was about 2 ft
from the right curb, I fear for your reading comprehension. If you can't
keep up, Jobst, you should vacate the thread. It is leaving you behind. This
time, as I have seen in other posts, you disregard what the person writes
and just assume you know what the person means.

Pat in TX

On Dec 15, 12:18*pm, wrote:
Pat who? wrote:
snip
Traffic on local main streets doesn't reach 20mph most of the time.
On rare occasions I get crowded by drifting drivers, so I slap the
car on the roof as a wake up. *It works.
Ah, that confirms my suspicion that you are thinking only of dense
inner-city traffic. From your other posts, I couldn't find any
common ground with my situation being on a suburban street with
"loose", not dense traffic, with a left lane the driver could pull
into, and the speed of traffic is 40 mph. *Most people who have been
posting and your posts have been talking about two different
scenarios.

Stop being suspicious and don't expect many riders to feel that your
problem is theirs as well.

There is no time to scrutinize drivers' intentions at 40 mph.

You can't have it both ways. *No one makes right turns, of the kind
you described, at 40mph. *At that speed and above, a car gives plenty
of warning that a turning maneuver is anticipated because the rushing
sound of the approach dies down as the driver brakes for the turn.


No one? Interesting. I'll have to check my speedometer, as it
reguarly indicates 40MPH when I'm making turns. While only one of my
vehicles was capable of a 90 degree turn @ 40MPH (and I did it often
in that vehicle), many turns around here are not 90 degrees, and I can
take them at 40 even in the pickup truck I drive as of late. Anyway,
I see a lot of high-performance cars with stiff, low riding suspension
and low-profile tires that are quite capable of high speed cornering.
They're often driven by younger drivers who are quite willing to make
those turns as fast as the car will allow, much as I was when I drove
such a car.


Slowing down must occur a reasonable distance from the corner so,
unless you are asleep, you should be warned.

What's your version of a reasonable distance? Even if a turn does
require me to slow, I'll usually be just about on top of it before I
do, at which point you'll have the warning of the engine racing as I
downshift and brake. Of course, by the time this occurs I'm only a
second from turning, so one would have to act pretty fast if I were
unaware of any cyclists I may be about to right hook. Of couse, being
a cyclist myself, I am on the watch for cyclists as well as any other
hazards, and would only make such a turn if my path where clear.
Unfortunately, not all drivers are as vigilant in watching for
cyclists as I am.

snip

On 14 Dec 2008 22:57:10 GMT, wrote:

On rare occasions I get crowded
by drifting drivers, so I slap the car on the roof as a wake up. It
works.

Try that in many places and you'd end up in a heap on the floor with
your face rearranged.


--

Mike who? wrote:


On rare occasions I get crowded by drifting drivers, so I slap the
car on the roof as a wake up. It works.

Try that in many places and you'd end up in a heap on the floor with
your face rearranged.

Oh cut out the wishful thinking. First the traffic is too dense, then
it is fast and sparse, then drivers that inadvertently crowd a
bicyclist are turned to murderers when I give them an audible signal.
Don't you see that you are defending an indefensible position on
bicycle safety... and do so even with threats. It rings of helmet
wars, in which helmet advocates wish brain damage on non users and
tell endless horror stories of human vegetables after a crash,
something that will happen soon.

http://geocities.com/rayhosler/coast...des/coastrange.

These folks, 50 years later, are all still well and alive except that
in those days we didn't hear from riders who didn't understand traffic
and how to handle the hazards of bicycling in it.

It works overseas as well:

http://tinyurl.com/92vpb

Jobst Brandt

wrote:

On rare occasions I get crowded by drifting drivers, so I slap the car on the
roof as a wake up. It works.

Oh that works all right. The last time I tried that the driver slammed the
brakes. Fortunately, I was completely alongside. But, it was the last time I did
that. I don't want to be near a motor vehicle when it makes any sudden
acceleration.

--
Bill Bushnell
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/