Question for SuzyJ

Suze,

What would be a ball park figure for materials to build up a frame??

I have recently been making enquiries about converting an old mtb to
horizontal dropouts and taking all of the brake cable lugs off for a smooth
looking SS. I made some enquiries to Gripsport and they provided me with a
quote of $320 for removal of lugs, conversion to horizontal dropouts
(includes gussets between seat and chain stays for strength and resetting of
width between dropouts to suit 110mm hub), and preparation/powder coating
the frame. They also added the advice that I may be over capitalising on
such and old frame (this only increased my opinion of them as this advice is
clearly not in their best interest $ wise).

I have also looked at a few prices on the net for On-One and Surly frames
and they seem to be around the $750 or so just for the frame and I am not
sure that I will be able to get one big enough.

I am now toying with the idea of making a SS frame up from scratch (inspired
by your efforts) and I was wondering what rough order of magnitude I am
looking at in the finance department.

I also seem to recall that you had a link to a site to calculate frame
angles/geometries etc (I will have to check your site again to confirm).
Did you end up using this or did you calculate angles manually?

Ride On,

Gags

Gags wrote:

What would be a ball park figure for materials to build up a frame??

It depends on what you're using. I've bought four sets of tubes s
far, one set of Columbus Thron, two of Columbus Zona, and one o
Columbus Genius.

Thron is their base-level butted set (similar to 531), and is probabl
the best sort of set to use for a first frame (I used it for my fixe
wheel). My Thron tubeset cost about $70.

Zona is a bit better, and builds up about 300-400g lighter than Thron.
It's a bit harder to work with, as the metal is a bit harder, and th
ends are thinner. It's applicable to a modest race bike or a reall
good tourer. My Zona sets have been about $140 each.

Genius is pretty much top of the line (though obsolete - the curren
top sets are Spirit and Life, which are very similar). It's not reall
applicable to hard use, but would make a nice race bike (that's wha
I'll build with my Genius tubes, anyway). My Genius set cost $180.
suspect the current ones (Spirit/Life) would be a little dearer tha
that.

Lugs (if you use lugs) again vary a bit. A really basic set of crapp
pressed lugs can be had for maybe $50-80. I've only used investmen
cast ones thus far, which are a bit dearer (though really nice to wor
with). The lugs for the fixed wheel and Audax bike were in th
neighborhood of $100 a set. Henry James ones are a little pricier tha
that - say $140. Then there's all the bits and bobs - brake bridge
cable stops, downtube lever bosses, bidon cage bosses - say $20-30.

So the steel for a frame can be anywhere from $150 odd to $350 odd.

I have recently been making enquiries about converting an old
mtb to horizontal dropouts and taking all of the brake cable lugs
off for a smooth looking SS. I made some enquiries to Gripsport
and they provided me with a quote of $320 for removal of lugs,
conversion to horizontal dropouts (includes gussets between seat
and chain stays for strength and resetting of width between
dropouts to suit 110mm hub), and preparation/powder coating
the frame. They also added the advice that I may be over
capitalising on such and old frame (this only increased my opinion
of them as this advice is clearly not in their best interest
wise).

This sounds like a superb price, as there's a lot of fairly fiddly wor
in that sort of modification.

I am now toying with the idea of making a SS frame up from
scratch (inspired by your efforts) and I was wondering what
rough order of magnitude I am looking at in the finance department.

The most expensive things for me have been paint related. If you jus
get your frame powdercoated or whatever then you'll save a bundle.
I've blown heaps of money on silkscreening bits and spraypainting bits
not to mention the shockingly expensive ($100/litre) two part epox
paint that I've been using.

Other expensive bits have been the brazing kit (around $350 fro
memory), and tools. Headset reamer/facers are really pricy, but wel
worth it. So far I haven't needed to buy a bottom bracket facer o
taps, nor a seat tube reamer, as silver soldering doesn't distort th
tubing or lugs like brass brazing or TIG does. If you've got
friendly bike shop with these things then that would be cool.

I also seem to recall that you had a link to a site to calculat
frame
angles/geometries etc (I will have to check your site again t
confirm).
Did you end up using this or did you calculate angles manually?

There's a java applet on the web called bikecad, which you can use t
pretty much design the whole frame. I used this a little, but hav
tended more recently to just use Autocad to design frames, as I'm use
to drafting with Autocad and find it's more flexible.

My advice is to join the framebuilders list, have a bit of a brows
through their archives, and order some tubes and lugs, and have a go.

Best of luck!

Regards,

Suz

--
suzyj

suzyj wrote:

Other expensive bits have been the brazing kit (around $350 from
memory),

err, from memory, you need two gauges/regulators, two hoses, 2 flash
back arrestors, hand piece and tip, which should be under $350 even if
you buy the Comet (CIG/BOC goodie). However, it is probably easier to
pick up basic oxy kit for ~$250 at cheap tool shops. Visit a TAFE shop
for economical googles and gloves ($5 riggers).

The HARD part is getting the cylinders of oxygen and acetylene. Unless
you already have two of these and have a mate in the business, these
have to be rented by a business (ABN please), so that is ~$100 each
(large size- you don't need these) and $20/month/cylinder rental. Either
BOC or Linde Gas.

If anyone has RECENT PRACTICAL experience renting, I would be interested
in hearing differently, but don't tell me any stories from mates. I have
spent the last three years chasing up all the ways one can apparently
avoid cyclinder rental, all to no avail.

Steal them

Seriously though, if you're only soldering, do you need oxyacetaline,
or can you get away with a fine torch on an LPG tank?

'course, you can buy a MIG these days pretty cheap ...

Terry Collins wrote:

err, from memory, you need two gauges/regulators, two hoses, 2 flash
back arrestors, hand piece and tip, which should be under $350 eve
if
you buy the Comet (CIG/BOC goodie). However, it is probably easie
to
pick up basic oxy kit for ~$250 at cheap tool shops. Visit a TAF
shop
for economical googles and gloves ($5 riggers).

I bought a Comet kit. It came with handpiece, mixer (bit between th
tips and the handpiece), hoses, and regulators with gauges, plus a
awful flint lighter thingy and some goggles (which I don't use a
they're too dark for silver. I also bought a selection of heating tip
- no. 8 (good for braze-ons), 10, 12, and 15 (good for bottom brackets)
and a set of Harris flashback arrestors.

More recently I bought an LPG regulator and a couple of LPG tips.

The HARD part is getting the cylinders of oxygen and acetylene
Unless
you already have two of these and have a mate in the business, these
have to be rented by a business (ABN please), so that is ~$100 each
(large size- you don't need these) and $20/month/cylinder rental
Either
BOC or Linde Gas.

If anyone has RECENT PRACTICAL experience renting, I would b
interested
in hearing differently, but don't tell me any stories from mates.
have
spent the last three years chasing up all the ways one ca
apparently
avoid cyclinder rental, all to no avail.

I use Liquid Air gas. I rent the cylinders, at about $20/month (D siz
cylinders). Even if you use LPG, you'll still need to rent an ox
cylinder. I rent both oxy and acetylene, as it's nice to have th
acetylene for stuff (like fillets) that LPG isn't really hot enoug
for.

The mob I bought my gear from (RQ welding in Botany) were really goo
to deal with, and were perfectly happy to rent cylinders (they'r
liquid air agents) to an individual rather than a company. Don't wast
your time with BOC. They're a PITA.

Cheers,

Suz

--
suzyj

Gags Wrote:
Suze,

I made some enquiries to Gripsport and they provided me with a
quote of $320 for removal of lugs, conversion to horizontal dropouts
(includes gussets between seat and chain stays for strength an
resetting of
width between dropouts to suit 110mm hub), and preparation/powde
coating
the frame. They also added the advice that I may be over capitalisin
on
such and old frame (this only increased my opinion of them as thi
advice is
clearly not in their best interest $ wise).

Gags

Yo Gags,

Sorry for the off-topic here but should you decide to stick with you
old MTB frame, one option might be to use that $320 to get a nice EN
hub built (OK good wheel build will cost more than that). As for th
all those cable guides etc, file them off. I spent about 2 weeks a
night sitting in front of the tele doing this and touched up the pain
with nail polish.

The ENO wheel can be transfered should you ever decide to change th
frame. Plus it gives you lots of frame options (not just SS specifi
frames).

Cheers
Koo

--
Koon Yong

Bleve wrote:

Steal them

Seriously though, if you're only soldering, do you need oxyacetaline,
or can you get away with a fine torch on an LPG tank?

'course, you can buy a MIG these days pretty cheap ...


In my former life as a mechanic, we bought a special tip for our
oxyacetylene torch that allowed us to braze without using an oxygen
cylinder. It basically screwed on the end of a #10 or #12 tip and mixed
air with the acetylene, just like your standard butane torch. Gave a
lovely soft flame that stopped us from getting hot spots, but still
heated the base metal enough for the bronze to flow properly.

Can't remember where we bought it, but you can see a similar style of
thing at:

http://www.gossonline.com/torches_&_tips.htm
http://www.gossonline.com/soldering_&_brazing_kits.htm

--
Brett "Who's trying to forget his old life..."

On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 at 02:57 GMT, Bleve (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
Steal them

Seriously though, if you're only soldering, do you need oxyacetaline,
or can you get away with a fine torch on an LPG tank?

'course, you can buy a MIG these days pretty cheap ...

I find it amusing that your nick is Bleve, and you are talking about
LPG tanks.

Boom!

--
TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
I like the US government, makes the Aussie one look less dumb
and THAT is a pretty big effort. -- Craig Small

Tim wins an elephant stamp

Koon Yong wrote:
Sorry for the off-topic here but should you decide to stick with your
old MTB frame, one option might be to use that $320 to get a nice ENO
hub built (OK good wheel build will cost more than that). As for the
all those cable guides etc, file them off. I spent about 2 weeks at
night sitting in front of the tele doing this and touched up the paint
with nail polish.

If you are careful, you can remove those guides and stuff in an hour or
two with an angle grinder followed by some filing:
http://www.thehippy.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6

1) Don't do it to a soopa-doopa frame
2) Don't slip

hippy