Did RBR cover this already?

Tom Kunich wrote:
marco wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
Locally there's a couple of climbs that everyone times themselves on for
comparisons (Old LaHonda Rd on the San Francisco peninsula and Mt.
Diablo in Walnut Creek.) Most of the records are held by NONRACERS.

I don't believe that statement one bit. Can you prove it? Does anybody
who actually races in NorCal and does those climbs regularly believe TK's
assertion?

Nathaniel English is the holder of the Mt. Diablo Challenge. He's a local
Cat 3 which is a non-racer in my book.

Nathaniel English is a cat 1, or will be soon. He is a climbing phenom, and
people who race in NorCal know this.

Old La Honda Rd is questionable. Eric Heiden is supposed to hold the
record set LONG after he was a practicing doctor. Others claim Mike Murray
(who was a pro racer several years before he "set the record"). However,
I've heard that one of the locals who doesn't race did it in 11 minutes!!!
That's 2-3 minutes faster than the recognized record.

11 minutes is complete BS. I guarantee you that. Heiden's "record" was
probably near 6 W/kg and no non-bike-racer can do 6 W/kg on a bike for 14
minutes like he did.

The Mt Tam record is supposedly 37 minutes but in bike shops over in Marin
I've heard them talk about locals who've done it in under 35 minutes
though how that's possibly I don't know.

Lucas Euser perhaps? He rides for Slipstream. Is he a bike racer in your
book?

I've personally witnessed Scott Nydam (BMC) set a time up Mt. Hamilton that
I can also guarantee you no non-bike-racer can beat.

You're living in a fantasy world Tom, ...unless you define "non-bike-racer"
as anybody not holding a UCI license on a pro tour team, your statement is
false.

Mark
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com

On Jan 5, 12:33*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message

...

On Jan 5, 9:25 am, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

Runners don't make particularly good riders because the muscles used are
different.

Another example of a runner who made the transition relatively quickly
was Christine Thorburn. She did not have any problems competing
against the Euros.

Psst - she was a person who was a runner but rode bicycles from childhood..
She converted to racing bicycles in her teens.



Liar -


She didn't start racing bikes until med school at Stanford.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

On Jan 5, 12:36*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message

...

On Jan 5, 9:25 am, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

Mike Engleman's long stay in the pros in the US was mostly because of
the
lack of competition. He couldn't do that in today's peloton.

Engleman's peak was during the Euro EPO era.

What exactly does that have to do with anything? Look at the times up the
climbs that Engelmann set and how much faster are they now?



Dumbass -


Mt. Evans is 2 minutes faster now over 105 minutes.

Not that significant when comparing eras. Chris Boardman broke Eddy
Merckx's hour record (w/ standard track bike in standard position). No
one, except maybe you, would say that Boardman was better than Merckx.

Engleman would've done just fine in Europe if he had their doctors (or
if the Euros didn't have them).


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message
...
On Jan 5, 12:36 pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

Engleman's peak was during the Euro EPO era.

What exactly does that have to do with anything? Look at the times up
the
climbs that Engelmann set and how much faster are they now?

Mt. Evans is 2 minutes faster now over 105 minutes.

So tell us - is that because or in spite of EPO?

Engleman would've done just fine in Europe if he had their doctors (or
if the Euros didn't have them).

Thanks for the comedy routine.

"marco" wrote in message
...
Tom Kunich wrote:
marco wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
Locally there's a couple of climbs that everyone times themselves on
for comparisons (Old LaHonda Rd on the San Francisco peninsula and Mt.
Diablo in Walnut Creek.) Most of the records are held by NONRACERS.

I don't believe that statement one bit. Can you prove it? Does anybody
who actually races in NorCal and does those climbs regularly believe
TK's assertion?

Nathaniel English is the holder of the Mt. Diablo Challenge. He's a local
Cat 3 which is a non-racer in my book.

Nathaniel English is a cat 1, or will be soon. He is a climbing phenom,
and people who race in NorCal know this.

When was it that he set that record?

Old La Honda Rd is questionable. Eric Heiden is supposed to hold the
record set LONG after he was a practicing doctor. Others claim Mike
Murray (who was a pro racer several years before he "set the record").
However, I've heard that one of the locals who doesn't race did it in 11
minutes!!! That's 2-3 minutes faster than the recognized record.

11 minutes is complete BS. I guarantee you that. Heiden's "record" was
probably near 6 W/kg and no non-bike-racer can do 6 W/kg on a bike for 14
minutes like he did.

The Mt Tam record is supposedly 37 minutes but in bike shops over in
Marin I've heard them talk about locals who've done it in under 35
minutes though how that's possibly I don't know.

Lucas Euser perhaps? He rides for Slipstream. Is he a bike racer in your
book?

I was told the guy was in his 40's but maybe you mean Euser is older than he
thinks?

I've personally witnessed Scott Nydam (BMC) set a time up Mt. Hamilton
that I can also guarantee you no non-bike-racer can beat.

Exactly why are you arguing again? Oh, yeah, because you think that pro bike
racers can ride short rides faster than non-pro bike riders. You're wrong.
What makes the pros stand out is the ability to maintain a high average
speed as well as special abilities such as great speed or climbing ability.
Maybe you haven't noticed how few Cat 1's are in the top 10 in the Tour of
California?

You're living in a fantasy world Tom, ...unless you define
"non-bike-racer" as anybody not holding a UCI license on a pro tour team,
your statement is false.

When I first joined the local bike club we put on a century each year. I was
supposed to be sagging the first section of the century. I got to the 28
mile mark less than an hour after the start of the century and three
cyclists went by. It was too soon for the century and that was a popular
route so I didn't think anything of it. But then I began wondering and took
off in pursuit. I passed one guy who was a racer who had been dropped. The
1000 foot climb up Palomares I passed another of the racers. When I got to
the far end of that canyon the stop had just opened up. They said that the
guy had stopped just long enough to get some water and had left.

I completed my hour and a half at the first 1/3th of the century and went on
the chase.

I drove up Redwood Rd, then Pinehurst which was perhaps another 1500 feet of
climbing between them. When I got to the next rest stop he had come through
before they'd opened up but they saw him.

Next he went over Papa Bear and turned onto Sandhill which added another
1000 feet or more between them.

I STILL hadn't caught up with him. The guy who had designed the course was a
map wizard but a layout jerk who couldn't possibly ride the stuff me
invented. There was 20 miles of back and forth crap through residential
areas and the like in order to generate mileage.

Then out Tasajara when it still was a narrow little crappy road, Highland,
then over Collier Canyon.

The whole time I had seen him but he had stopped momentarily at every stop.
Turns out that he got back to the start almost exactly 4 hours after he left
including all of his stops. He got back before the food was prepared cleaned
up and left. One guy I talked to told me that he knew the guy who was in his
50's. I never saw that guy again but I talked to the other two who were Cat
3's and were in awe of him.

So by all means tell me how racers are so much faster than local guys. By
the way, they say that most of the non-fixed local races in Belgium are won
by non-pros.

But the bottom line is this - what sets a pro level guy apart from the
normal racer is the ability to HOLD a high speed far longer than the lesser
levels. Maybe you haven't noticed that there are only a very few pros that
are super fast - most of them use the same gearing as a Cat 3. The physics
tell us that it takes HUGE amounts of power to increase speed over what most
"good" riders/racers can do. So it makes sense that it is higher average
speed over longer distances which makes the difference.

And in case you haven't noticed, there are 30 guys who could win a spring
classic but only a half dozen who can win the Tour.

Equally - because these silly little local records are quite short
distances, a much higher number of riders can set the record. It simply
isn't necessary to be a pro to be the first to the top of Diablo.

You're living in a fantasy world Tom, ...unless you define
"non-bike-racer" as anybody not holding a UCI license on a pro tour team,
your statement is false.

So tell us why - when is Nathaniel English turning pro again? And I've heard
from several sources about that 11 minute climb up Old La Honda.

Are you proposing that anyone that ever rode in a bike race is a "racer"?

Does that make me a pro?

Tom Kunich wrote:
"Bob Schwartz" wrote in message
...
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
If I was starting with unskilled (but aerobically gifted) athletes,
I'd probably try TTing/pursuit first, followed by climbing specialists.

When the Colombians first started showing up in Europe that
was the rap on them, that they were gifted climbers that
couldn't ride their bikes. In the old Red Zinger I think it
was Jock Boyer that won in the crit on the last day by
repeatedly lapping the Colombian team.

Do you suppose we don't see Columbian climbers in the European peloton
as we did in the 80's because they were just a fluke of the time? Or
perhaps because the peloton simply developed a strategy to deal with them?


We don't see significant numbers of them because there is no primary
Colombian sponsor in the Pro Tour peloton like Cafe de Colombia was in
the 80's.

"Carl Sundquist" wrote in message
...
Tom Kunich wrote:

Do you suppose we don't see Columbian climbers in the European peloton as
we did in the 80's because they were just a fluke of the time? Or perhaps
because the peloton simply developed a strategy to deal with them?

We don't see significant numbers of them because there is no primary
Colombian sponsor in the Pro Tour peloton like Cafe de Colombia was in the
80's.

We didn't see large numbers of them then either Carl. Yet there were some
really good Columbian climbers.

But the peloton developed a defense against them - they push the pace and
the climbers who are mostly small guys are beat to death by the time the
final climbs come along and the slightly larger Europeans retain more of the
strength for the climbs.

Tom Kunich wrote:
marco wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
marco wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
Locally there's a couple of climbs that everyone times themselves on
for comparisons (Old LaHonda Rd on the San Francisco peninsula and Mt.
Diablo in Walnut Creek.) Most of the records are held by NONRACERS.

I don't believe that statement one bit. Can you prove it? Does anybody
who actually races in NorCal and does those climbs regularly believe
TK's assertion?

Nathaniel English is the holder of the Mt. Diablo Challenge. He's a
local Cat 3 which is a non-racer in my book.

Nathaniel English is a cat 1, or will be soon. He is a climbing phenom,
and people who race in NorCal know this.

When was it that he set that record?

This year apparently. And he was a Cat 1 at the time. So, does that mean
he's a racer or a non-racer in your view? Look at your original statement:
"Most of the records are held by NONRACERS." I will let you off the hook if
you say you think Cat 1s are non-racers, but you must promise to never again
identify yourself as a former racer, seeing as you dabbled in a few local
events as a cat 5.

Old La Honda Rd is questionable. Eric Heiden is supposed to hold the
record set LONG after he was a practicing doctor. Others claim Mike
Murray (who was a pro racer several years before he "set the record").
However, I've heard that one of the locals who doesn't race did it in 11
minutes!!! That's 2-3 minutes faster than the recognized record.

11 minutes is complete BS. I guarantee you that. Heiden's "record" was
probably near 6 W/kg and no non-bike-racer can do 6 W/kg on a bike for 14
minutes like he did.

The Mt Tam record is supposedly 37 minutes but in bike shops over in
Marin I've heard them talk about locals who've done it in under 35
minutes though how that's possibly I don't know.

Lucas Euser perhaps? He rides for Slipstream. Is he a bike racer in your
book?

I was told the guy was in his 40's but maybe you mean Euser is older than
he thinks?

I don't know whether or not Lucas Euser has the record, but I do know that
no non-racer can beat him up that hill, at least not by my definition of a
non-racer. The team that promotes Mt. Tam every fall says that Justin
England has the record (37:26) and that anybody who beats that mark will be
given $1,000. Where are all these non-racers who are passing up that $1,000?
BTW, do you consider Justin England a racer or a non-racer? If you say
"Non-racer" you might be correct since he was on now-defunct Toyota-United
and may or may not be on a team in 2009.

I've personally witnessed Scott Nydam (BMC) set a time up Mt. Hamilton
that I can also guarantee you no non-bike-racer can beat.

Exactly why are you arguing again?

Because it's more fun than work.

Oh, yeah, because you think that pro bike racers can ride short rides
faster than non-pro bike riders.

We are talking about climbs with durations between 15 minutes and an hour.
Are you seriously telling me you think non-bike-racers can do those climbs
faster than good climber pro bike racers? If so, who are these people?

You're wrong.

No, I'm not.

What makes the pros stand out is the ability to maintain a high average
speed as well as special abilities such as great speed or climbing
ability.

"special abilities such as great speed or climbing ability"??? WTF are you
saying? Are there non-racers who climb better than any pro bike racer or
not?

Maybe you haven't noticed how few Cat 1's are in the top 10 in the Tour of
California?

Cat 1's can't do the Tour of California. You can only do the Tour of
California if you have a UCI license and are on a Pro Tour team or, if you
are not on a Pro Tour team, then your team has to pay the extortion fee to
get in.

You're living in a fantasy world Tom, ...unless you define
"non-bike-racer" as anybody not holding a UCI license on a pro tour team,
your statement is false.

When I first joined the local bike club we put on a century each year.
....snipped the story...
One guy I talked to told me that he knew the guy who was in his 50's. I
never saw that guy again but I talked to the other two who were Cat 3's
and were in awe of him.

There are probably some Cat 3s in awe of you too, but that doesn't make your
case.

So by all means tell me how racers are so much faster than local guys.

I don't know what your point is. At first you said the fastest times up a
few notable climbs were held by non-racers. Of those you mentioned (plus I
added Mt. Hamilton) I'm quite sure you are wrong, but I'm including anybody
who holds a license and races. But again, the fastest times on the climbs
you mentioned are held by very good racers (Cat 1 or pro).

By the way, they say that most of the non-fixed local races in Belgium are
won by non-pros.

Most of the local races in Belgium don't allow Pros, so I'll give you that
one.

But the bottom line is this - what sets a pro level guy apart from the
normal racer is the ability to HOLD a high speed far longer than the
lesser levels.

That is a true statement, but it applies to durations as low as 15 minutes
(or even less).

Maybe you haven't noticed that there are only a very few pros that are
super fast - most of them use the same gearing as a Cat 3.

The first part of that statement is ridiculous. And I have no idea what you
mean by the second part.

The physics tell us that it takes HUGE amounts of power to increase speed
over what most "good" riders/racers can do. So it makes sense that it is
higher average speed over longer distances which makes the difference.

And in case you haven't noticed, there are 30 guys who could win a spring
classic but only a half dozen who can win the Tour.

So?

Equally - because these silly little local records are quite short
distances, a much higher number of riders can set the record. It simply
isn't necessary to be a pro to be the first to the top of Diablo.

No it's not necessary. If you and I start together at the bottom, I will
beat you to the top, and I am not a pro. But that is not relevant to the
conversation.

You're living in a fantasy world Tom, ...unless you define
"non-bike-racer" as anybody not holding a UCI license on a pro tour team,
your statement is false.

So tell us why - when is Nathaniel English turning pro again?

If he stays on track, he could be on a domestic pro team in 2010. He'll
still be under 27 years old. Riders of lesser talent are already there.

And I've heard from several sources about that 11 minute climb up Old La
Honda.

That's just not credible from a Watts-per-kg standpoint. I think a doped
Pantani or Lance could do 12 maybe. Where's Dan Connelly when you need
him???

Are you proposing that anyone that ever rode in a bike race is a "racer"?

No. If you have a license and actively race a bike, then you are a bike
racer. Pretty simple, eh?

Does that make me a pro?

Nope.

Mark
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com

On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:40:16 -0800, "marco"
wrote:

Tom Kunich wrote:
Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
It'd take a few years. Even a 24 year old isn't too old though if they
had a running background. Remember Mike Engleman? There's also a lot
of examples of female cyclists who started as runners. I'm sure Bruce
could fill you in.

Mike Engleman's long stay in the pros in the US was mostly because of the
lack of competition. He couldn't do that in today's peloton.

Amazing! Do you just make this up as you go?

Dumbass,

You're just figuring that out?

"marco" wrote in message
...
Tom Kunich wrote:

Exactly why are you arguing again?

Because it's more fun than work.

I suspected as much.

Oh, yeah, because you think that pro bike racers can ride short rides
faster than non-pro bike riders.

We are talking about climbs with durations between 15 minutes and an hour.

So 11 minutes is 15 minutes now? And the climb up Mt. Diablo was won in 2006
by Robert Anderson a 51 year old professional racing cyclist. Oh, wait, not
a pro. Though he did beat Kevin Metcalfe who had been a pro.

In 2007 it was won in 45:48.7 by Christopher Phipps, a 37 year old pro
racer. Oh wait, no he wasn't. But your climbing phenomenon did beat that
time by about 2 minutes in 2008.

So I'll give it to you - I'm completely and utterly wrong because you've
discovered at least one alternate case. And all of those other records set
by non-pros are absolutely meaningless.