WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 26, 3:42�am, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

I'm serious. You and I are generally on the same side on materials
properties and uses. But I have vast experience of discriminating
matters of taste from strict engineering, and you should give me a
break there if you expect a break on materials science.
oh ****, there you go again. �"discriminating taste" is just an excuse
for willful ignorance.

Not at all, dear Jumbo. It is a reason not to let tenth-rate techies
like you tell me how to spend my money.

Andre Jute
Not everything in materials are dreamt of in Timoshenko



goddamned hypocrite. and attempting advocacy in matters you don't
understand is not discrimination, it's simply bleating in the dark in a
feeble attempt at staying in touch with the other sheep around you.

On Apr 26, 6:43*pm, Chalo wrote:

You presume the framebuilding expert would understand more about your
riding than you do. *Building well and coaching well are very
different skills, and I imagine they are usually exclusive of each
other. *In any case, I don't think a custom frame buyer would usually
be best served by letting the builder tell him what he wants.

Not quite as bad as letting the RBT clowns tell him what he should
want.

If I had done that with any of the several frambuilders I approached,
I would have gotten a frame with roughly 17" chainstays, when really I
needed 21" to maintain normal proportions.

Yah. I would have ended up with a mountain bike that doesn't take the
wheelsize I want, has too high a bottom bracket, too high a top bar,
wrong angles, wrong ergonomics, too short chainstays, and not even the
appearance I wanted. Ugh.

Andre Jute
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/Andre%20Jute's%20Utopia%20Kranich.pdf

Jay Beattie wrote:
On Apr 25, 3:05 pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 5:35 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Apr 24, 9:35 pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:42 am, RonSonic wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:23:52 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:05 am, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly
that's an ignorant jobstian bull**** excuse. if the mechanicals are
good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
ability to ride the damned thing.
How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
your face.
Andre Jute
"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
Pelayo Ricart Medina
yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar
sometimes.
Especially the zero-aesthetic barbarians.
Andre Jute
The Real Thing -- slogan I coined for wool, later used for a fizzy
drink
Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
and pedigree in steel bikes:
Criticising Waterford as lacking "pedigree" is probably not a real strong
argument.
Nobody accused Waterford of having zero pedigree, Ronni. The problem
is that Waterford just doesn't have the pedigree of say Bob Jackson or
Mercian, but Waterford charges three to five times as much as they do
-- not three to five per cent more, three to five whole multiples.
Holy Moses, i've heard of the last of the big spenders, but Waterford
is the last of the big chargers.
And it isn't just a difference in depth of pedigree that makes
Waterford look so greedy. At Bob Jackson (and possibly at Mercian too,
I can't remember now and there are plenty on RBT to look it up) you
get a bike without local frame-stresses because it is brazed in an
open hearth for even heating, so there are technical superiorities
too. And the historic connections, for instance Bob Jackson is the
only place where you can get authorized Hetchins wavy chainstays.
I have no connection with Bob Jackson or Mercian, who are both long-
established traditional British bike makers; I normally order my bikes
in the Benelux or Germany.
There are some good bargains to be had with the Mercians even with
shipping, and depending on the exchange rate. As for hearth brazing
and the heat affected zone, modern air hardened steels do not behave
in the same way as 531 or SL/SP. Mercian uses air hardened steels,
starting with Reynolds 631 in its lower priced frames, which
purportedly gains strength in the heat affected zone. The Waterfords
are a whole other animal judging by the website, and some of the
additional cost can be justified by the proprietary tube sets, etc.
Some is obviously hype.
I'm not unwilling to pay something for pedigree, given that it is not
overpriced like Waterford's, and given that it is real, not just some
wiseguys in a building once used by a famous name, or who bought the
right to use the name.

But the surprising thing about the best pedigreed products is that
their makers usually charge very little or nothing for the name
itself, merely insisting on not cutting quality of components and
workmanship in order to appear competitive on price. So you get what
you pay for.

Waterford clearly charges a premium for the name. I think it far too
high. YMMV.

BTW, I think the mystery attached to custom steel frames in the UK is
much less than in the USA. The UK has a history of street corner bike
shops with resident builders and a more utilitarian approach to frame
building. It is sort of like the Amish not getting all that excited
about Amish chairs, whereas the same chair mightbe revered as art in
some Manhattan gallery. Over here, custom steel is art, and the
builders are revered as rock stars, barely a rung below really good
baristas. So there Amercans do pay a premium for mystique.

You should see what we pay in the US for the old, fruitwood, crap
furniture from the 30s that the British have cleared out of their
basements and that are sold here as "antiques." On the other hand,
the Japanese were paying $70 for used Jeans from the US, so I guess it
goes both ways. -- Jay Beattie.

Old dented keirin frames balance the trade.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Apr 26, 9:21*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Apr 25, 3:05*pm, Andre Jute wrote:



On Apr 25, 5:35*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:

On Apr 24, 9:35*pm, Andre Jute wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:42*am, RonSonic wrote:

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:23:52 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:05*am, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly

that's an ignorant jobstian bull**** excuse. *if the mechanicals are
good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
ability to ride the damned thing.

How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
your face.

Andre Jute
*"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
Pelayo Ricart Medina

yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar
sometimes.

Especially the zero-aesthetic barbarians.

Andre Jute
The Real Thing -- slogan I coined for wool, later used for a fizzy
drink

Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
and pedigree in steel bikes:

Criticising Waterford as lacking "pedigree" is probably not a real strong
argument.

Nobody accused Waterford of having zero pedigree, Ronni. The problem
is that Waterford just doesn't have the pedigree of say Bob Jackson or
Mercian, but Waterford charges three to five times as much as they do
-- not three to five per cent more, three to five whole multiples.
Holy Moses, i've heard of the last of the big spenders, but Waterford
is the last of the big chargers.

And it isn't just a difference in depth of pedigree that makes
Waterford look so greedy. At Bob Jackson (and possibly at Mercian too,
I can't remember now and there are plenty on RBT to *look it up) you
get a bike without local frame-stresses because it is brazed in an
open hearth for even heating, so there are technical superiorities
too. And the historic connections, for instance Bob Jackson is the
only place where you can get authorized Hetchins wavy chainstays.

I have no connection with Bob Jackson or Mercian, who are both long-
established traditional British bike makers; I normally order my bikes
in the Benelux or Germany.

There are some good bargains to be had with the Mercians even with
shipping, and depending on the exchange rate. *As for hearth brazing
and the heat affected zone, modern air hardened steels do not behave
in the same way as 531 or SL/SP. *Mercian uses air hardened steels,
starting with Reynolds 631 in its lower priced frames, which
purportedly gains strength in the heat affected zone. *The Waterfords
are a whole other animal judging by the website, and some of the
additional cost can be justified by the proprietary tube sets, etc.
Some is obviously hype.

I'm not unwilling to pay something for pedigree, given that it is not
overpriced like Waterford's, and given that it is real, not just some
wiseguys in a building once used by a famous name, or who bought the
right to use the name.

But the surprising thing about the best pedigreed products is that
their makers usually charge very little or nothing for the name
itself, merely insisting on not cutting quality of components and
workmanship in order to appear competitive on price. So you get what
you pay for.

Waterford clearly charges a premium for the name. I think it far too
high. YMMV.

BTW, I think the mystery attached to custom steel frames in the UK is
much less than in the USA. *The UK has a history of street corner bike
shops with resident builders and a more utilitarian approach to frame
building. *It is sort of like the Amish not getting all that excited
about Amish chairs, *whereas the same chair mightbe revered as art in
some Manhattan gallery. *Over here, custom steel is art, and the
builders are revered as rock stars, barely a rung below really good
baristas. So there Amercans do pay a premium for mystique.

Heh-heh! That's probably the reason the resident mouthbreathers
reacted so much over the top to my standard comparison between
manufacturers, which Waterford lost by so far as not to be in the
game. But I wish Waterford luck in the collecting their premium; if I
were Waterford, I'd charge the roadies on RBT a double premium for
being so awkward and anti-social.

You should see what we pay in the US for the old, fruitwood, crap
furniture from the 30s that the British have cleared out of their
basements and that are sold here as "antiques." *On the other hand,
the Japanese were paying $70 for used Jeans from the US, so I guess it
goes both ways. -- Jay Beattie.

I can understand all this. Americans, by and large, don't have history
(and very few of them are thoroughly rooted in the land), and those
who do somehow feel that their history isn't as valuable as anyone
else's. It's silly. But the Daughters of the American Revolution make
up for Americans' cultural cringe in spades!

Andre Jute
Kulturny

On Apr 25, 7:23*pm, datakoll wrote:
On Apr 25, 9:20*pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:

whenever yawl stop suking on this asshole let me know the procedure
for setting MTB shifters

Look for a pair of better quality used of NOS Shimano or Suntour
friction thumb-shifters.

Or if you can afford the "freight", get bar-end shifters and Paul's
Thumbies™: http://www.paulcomp.com/mtthumbie.html.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

bought shimano 748 for 8 speeds
the front shifter doesn't shift but once and only half the necessary
distance.
what's the cable setup ?
trouble shooting procedure ?
before answering, imagine you are drinking cold laffite on a terrace
overlooking the portugese atlantic.....

What model FD do you have? it may have a different cable pull rate
than your shifter is designed for.

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:49:42 -0700, jim beam
wrote:

Chalo wrote:
Michael Press wrote:
?Tim McNamara wrote:
?Michael Press wrote:
It is not a custom frame unless you consult in person with a master
frame maker. He talks with you, watches you ride, then builds the
exact frame that you need. Mailing in dimensions is just that.
How about if you consult with a non-master framebuilder? ?;-)
What do you think? The idea is to hire the best advice
you can if you want a custom frame. Otherwise it is
semi-custom.

You presume the framebuilding expert would understand more about your
riding than you do.

so what variables does a steel frame builder have at their disposal
chalo? how much math do they do?


Building well and coaching well are very
different skills, and I imagine they are usually exclusive of each
other. In any case, I don't think a custom frame buyer would usually
be best served by letting the builder tell him what he wants.

all they typically, and all they basically /can/ do, given the
limitations of tubesets available, is make something to a certain size.
beyond that, their parameters are pretty much fixed. and i've yet to
meet a steel frame artisan that does any math to address things like shimmy.



If I had done that with any of the several frambuilders I approached,
I would have gotten a frame with roughly 17" chainstays, when really I
needed 21" to maintain normal proportions.

so how exactly does greater elasticity serve you then big guy?

Don't know about the elasticity thing, that'd have to be addressed in tubing
size and choice, along with the seat stays. But I'm sure it serves to keep his
ass in front of the rear wheel and maybe keep the front tire touching the ground
on uphills.

RonSonic wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:49:42 -0700, jim beam
wrote:

Chalo wrote:
Michael Press wrote:
?Tim McNamara wrote:
?Michael Press wrote:
It is not a custom frame unless you consult in person with a master
frame maker. He talks with you, watches you ride, then builds the
exact frame that you need. Mailing in dimensions is just that.
How about if you consult with a non-master framebuilder? ?;-)
What do you think? The idea is to hire the best advice
you can if you want a custom frame. Otherwise it is
semi-custom.
You presume the framebuilding expert would understand more about your
riding than you do.
so what variables does a steel frame builder have at their disposal
chalo? how much math do they do?


Building well and coaching well are very
different skills, and I imagine they are usually exclusive of each
other. In any case, I don't think a custom frame buyer would usually
be best served by letting the builder tell him what he wants.
all they typically, and all they basically /can/ do, given the
limitations of tubesets available, is make something to a certain size.
beyond that, their parameters are pretty much fixed. and i've yet to
meet a steel frame artisan that does any math to address things like shimmy.


If I had done that with any of the several frambuilders I approached,
I would have gotten a frame with roughly 17" chainstays, when really I
needed 21" to maintain normal proportions.
so how exactly does greater elasticity serve you then big guy?

Don't know about the elasticity thing, that'd have to be addressed in tubing
size and choice,

that's the problem - in steel, you really don't get much choice.


along with the seat stays. But I'm sure it serves to keep his
ass in front of the rear wheel and maybe keep the front tire touching the ground
on uphills.

in theory, but afaik, you can't /get/ a 21" chainstay in steel.

Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 26, 9:21�pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Apr 25, 3:05�pm, Andre Jute wrote:



On Apr 25, 5:35�pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Apr 24, 9:35�pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:42�am, RonSonic wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:23:52 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:05�am, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly
that's an ignorant jobstian bull**** excuse. �if the mechanicals are
good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
ability to ride the damned thing.
How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
your face.
Andre Jute
�"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
Pelayo Ricart Medina
yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar
sometimes.
Especially the zero-aesthetic barbarians.
Andre Jute
The Real Thing -- slogan I coined for wool, later used for a fizzy
drink
Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
and pedigree in steel bikes:
Criticising Waterford as lacking "pedigree" is probably not a real strong
argument.
Nobody accused Waterford of having zero pedigree, Ronni. The problem
is that Waterford just doesn't have the pedigree of say Bob Jackson or
Mercian, but Waterford charges three to five times as much as they do
-- not three to five per cent more, three to five whole multiples.
Holy Moses, i've heard of the last of the big spenders, but Waterford
is the last of the big chargers.
And it isn't just a difference in depth of pedigree that makes
Waterford look so greedy. At Bob Jackson (and possibly at Mercian too,
I can't remember now and there are plenty on RBT to �look it up) you
get a bike without local frame-stresses because it is brazed in an
open hearth for even heating, so there are technical superiorities
too. And the historic connections, for instance Bob Jackson is the
only place where you can get authorized Hetchins wavy chainstays.
I have no connection with Bob Jackson or Mercian, who are both long-
established traditional British bike makers; I normally order my bikes
in the Benelux or Germany.
There are some good bargains to be had with the Mercians even with
shipping, and depending on the exchange rate. �As for hearth brazing
and the heat affected zone, modern air hardened steels do not behave
in the same way as 531 or SL/SP. �Mercian uses air hardened steels,
starting with Reynolds 631 in its lower priced frames, which
purportedly gains strength in the heat affected zone. �The Waterfords
are a whole other animal judging by the website, and some of the
additional cost can be justified by the proprietary tube sets, etc.
Some is obviously hype.
I'm not unwilling to pay something for pedigree, given that it is not
overpriced like Waterford's, and given that it is real, not just some
wiseguys in a building once used by a famous name, or who bought the
right to use the name.
But the surprising thing about the best pedigreed products is that
their makers usually charge very little or nothing for the name
itself, merely insisting on not cutting quality of components and
workmanship in order to appear competitive on price. So you get what
you pay for.
Waterford clearly charges a premium for the name. I think it far too
high. YMMV.
BTW, I think the mystery attached to custom steel frames in the UK is
much less than in the USA. �The UK has a history of street corner bike
shops with resident builders and a more utilitarian approach to frame
building. �It is sort of like the Amish not getting all that excited
about Amish chairs, �whereas the same chair mightbe revered as art in
some Manhattan gallery. �Over here, custom steel is art, and the
builders are revered as rock stars, barely a rung below really good
baristas. So there Amercans do pay a premium for mystique.

Heh-heh! That's probably the reason the resident mouthbreathers

that's why you're a fred andre - if you're a nose breather, you're not
pushing hard enough.


reacted so much over the top to my standard comparison between
manufacturers, which Waterford lost by so far as not to be in the
game. But I wish Waterford luck in the collecting their premium; if I
were Waterford, I'd charge the roadies on RBT a double premium for
being so awkward and anti-social.

You should see what we pay in the US for the old, fruitwood, crap
furniture from the 30s that the British have cleared out of their
basements and that are sold here as "antiques." �On the other hand,
the Japanese were paying $70 for used Jeans from the US, so I guess it
goes both ways. -- Jay Beattie.

I can understand all this. Americans, by and large, don't have history
(and very few of them are thoroughly rooted in the land),

and that's why americans do stuff. all you ****ing stay-at-homes are
hidebound by your traditions and old habits.



and those
who do somehow feel that their history isn't as valuable as anyone
else's. It's silly. But the Daughters of the American Revolution make
up for Americans' cultural cringe in spades!

Andre Jute
Kulturny

On Apr 27, 2:36*am, jim beam wrote:
RonSonic wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:49:42 -0700, jim beam
wrote:

Chalo wrote:
Michael Press wrote:
?Tim McNamara wrote:
?Michael Press wrote:
It is not a custom frame unless you consult in person with a master
frame maker. He talks with you, watches you ride, then builds the
exact frame that you need. Mailing in dimensions is just that.
How about if you consult with a non-master framebuilder? ?;-)
What do you think? The idea is to hire the best advice
you can if you want a custom frame. Otherwise it is
semi-custom.
You presume the framebuilding expert would understand more about your
riding than you do.
so what variables does a steel frame builder have at their disposal
chalo? *how much math do they do?

Building well and coaching well are very
different skills, and I imagine they are usually exclusive of each
other. *In any case, I don't think a custom frame buyer would usually
be best served by letting the builder tell him what he wants.
all they typically, and all they basically /can/ do, given the
limitations of tubesets available, is make something to a certain size..
*beyond that, their parameters are pretty much fixed. *and i've yet to
meet a steel frame artisan that does any math to address things like shimmy.

If I had done that with any of the several frambuilders I approached,
I would have gotten a frame with roughly 17" chainstays, when really I
needed 21" to maintain normal proportions.
so how exactly does greater elasticity serve you then big guy?

Don't know about the elasticity thing, that'd have to be addressed in tubing
size and choice,

that's the problem - in steel, you really don't get much choice.

Only if you're the sort of hidebound clown who waits for someone else
to develop a set of tubes, which will limit your geometry. But people
with initiative and brains build bikes to their own design (rather
than what they're *permitted* to do by the mainstream tube suppliers)
by simply developing their own tubes. The modern Pedersen is made with
such specially developed tubes, I ride a bicycle made with such tubes
specially developed by Van Raam and Utopia, any materials expert who
isn't fast asleep should be able to cite a dozen more examples.

along with the seat stays. But I'm sure it serves to keep his
ass in front of the rear wheel and maybe keep the front tire touching the ground
on uphills.

in theory, but afaik, you can't /get/ a 21" chainstay in steel.

Bloody hell! You put yourself forward as a materials expert, Jumbo?
What the hell is wrong with you, man? If you can't imagine how Chalo
made his chainstays -- and every high school with a metalwork shop has
dozens of kids who'll be happy to enlighten you -- why not just ask
him instead of pontificating emptily about what can't be bought off
the shelf?

What's the point of knowing about materials if you're just another
fashion victim who thinks that, if it can't be build with standard off
the shelf parts, it can't be built at all?

Andre Jute
Why do colleges drain the imagination from all the students of
technical subjects?

On Apr 27, 2:44*am, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 26, 9:21 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Apr 25, 3:05 pm, Andre Jute wrote:

On Apr 25, 5:35 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Apr 24, 9:35 pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:42 am, RonSonic wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:23:52 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:05 am, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly
that's an ignorant jobstian bull**** excuse. if the mechanicals are
good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
ability to ride the damned thing.
How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
your face.
Andre Jute
"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
Pelayo Ricart Medina
yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar
sometimes.
Especially the zero-aesthetic barbarians.
Andre Jute
The Real Thing -- slogan I coined for wool, later used for a fizzy
drink
Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
and pedigree in steel bikes:
Criticising Waterford as lacking "pedigree" is probably not a real strong
argument.
Nobody accused Waterford of having zero pedigree, Ronni. The problem
is that Waterford just doesn't have the pedigree of say Bob Jackson or
Mercian, but Waterford charges three to five times as much as they do
-- not three to five per cent more, three to five whole multiples.
Holy Moses, i've heard of the last of the big spenders, but Waterford
is the last of the big chargers.
And it isn't just a difference in depth of pedigree that makes
Waterford look so greedy. At Bob Jackson (and possibly at Mercian too,
I can't remember now and there are plenty on RBT to look it up) you
get a bike without local frame-stresses because it is brazed in an
open hearth for even heating, so there are technical superiorities
too. And the historic connections, for instance Bob Jackson is the
only place where you can get authorized Hetchins wavy chainstays.
I have no connection with Bob Jackson or Mercian, who are both long-
established traditional British bike makers; I normally order my bikes
in the Benelux or Germany.
There are some good bargains to be had with the Mercians even with
shipping, and depending on the exchange rate. As for hearth brazing
and the heat affected zone, modern air hardened steels do not behave
in the same way as 531 or SL/SP. Mercian uses air hardened steels,
starting with Reynolds 631 in its lower priced frames, which
purportedly gains strength in the heat affected zone. The Waterfords
are a whole other animal judging by the website, and some of the
additional cost can be justified by the proprietary tube sets, etc.
Some is obviously hype.
I'm not unwilling to pay something for pedigree, given that it is not
overpriced like Waterford's, and given that it is real, not just some
wiseguys in a building once used by a famous name, or who bought the
right to use the name.
But the surprising thing about the best pedigreed products is that
their makers usually charge very little or nothing for the name
itself, merely insisting on not cutting quality of components and
workmanship in order to appear competitive on price. So you get what
you pay for.
Waterford clearly charges a premium for the name. I think it far too
high. YMMV.
BTW, I think the mystery attached to custom steel frames in the UK is
much less than in the USA. The UK has a history of street corner bike
shops with resident builders and a more utilitarian approach to frame
building. It is sort of like the Amish not getting all that excited
about Amish chairs, whereas the same chair mightbe revered as art in
some Manhattan gallery. Over here, custom steel is art, and the
builders are revered as rock stars, barely a rung below really good
baristas. So there Amercans do pay a premium for mystique.

Heh-heh! That's probably the reason the resident mouthbreathers

that's why you're a fred andre - if you're a nose breather, you're not
pushing hard enough.

Or perhaps just a lot fitter than you, Jumbo. Perhaps less time on the
keyboard and more on the bike might help you close your mouth before
the flies get in.

reacted so much over the top to my standard comparison between
manufacturers, which Waterford lost by so far as not to be in the
game. But I wish Waterford luck in the collecting their premium; if I
were Waterford, I'd charge the roadies on RBT a double premium for
being so awkward and anti-social.

You should see what we pay in the US for the old, fruitwood, crap
furniture from the 30s that the British have cleared out of their
basements and that are sold here as "antiques." On the other hand,
the Japanese were paying $70 for used Jeans from the US, so I guess it
goes both ways. -- Jay Beattie.

I can understand all this. Americans, by and large, don't have history
(and very few of them are thoroughly rooted in the land),

and that's why americans do stuff. *all you ****ing stay-at-homes are
hidebound by your traditions and old habits.

Yes, Jumbo, we're trying to find out what "stuff" you've done to
justify your wretched presumption of a divine right to tell us what we
can say and what sort of bikes we should ride.

all you ****ing stay-at-homes are
hidebound by your traditions and old habits.

Nah, Jumbo, I'm not the one who can't imagine where one would get a
chainstay if Truetone or whatever they're called doesn't make a
chainstay in the right length. You're the one who's hidebound by
tradition and old habits, a victim of racing fashions. I don't ride
bikes that look like every other bike; you do. And you can hardly call
me a "stay-at-home" -- I've for instance toured your entire country on
the Greyhound for six months; have you, or did you just assume once
again that you know more than people who make the effort? I won't even
bother to ask if you've ever been to any of my countries, because we
know you haven't.

You're a blustering clown, Jumbo. Less bluster and more clowning would
be more amusing and equally informative, because currently you aren't
telling us anything we don't already know.

Andre Jute
Visit Andre's books at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/THE%20WRITER'S%20HOUSE.html


and those
who do somehow feel that their history isn't as valuable as anyone
else's. It's silly. But the Daughters of the American Revolution make
up for Americans' cultural cringe in spades!

Andre Jute
Kulturny