3ttt new crank process

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 5:31:42 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 10:57:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 6:13:31 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/6/2019 5:50 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 1:28:54 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:07:23 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2019 08:03:46 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/29/2019 11:44 PM, Chalo wrote:
I notice they have specified a perverse hole pattern. No one's
interest is served that way. Not even the manufacturer's, because
smart and experienced cyclists will avoid it.


It's the way of the world now, when a 22 year old with a CadCam
software can displace an experienced engineer. Hell, we just changed
a worn 53t 2009 Campagnolo chainring on a Record carbon crank which
entailed _both_ chainrings _and_ the bolt set for the 2011 style
which are available, the 2009 being incompatible and unavailable.. And
Campagnolo is not the worst of it.

Thank goodness I have four sets of TA cranks and over a dozen unused
chain rings. Those should see me out.

I'm still using my Ritchey Logic 110 mm cranks on almost all my bikes.
Ought to be rings available for those for a long time.

And, LOL, 8sp Shimano cassettes. Seems like the dark ages now, what
with 11sp being de rigeur, except for one bike with a 7sp
freewheel which I guess is the darker ages. But it's a 135 mm OLN and
thus has almost zero dish- same spokes since 1996 with no breakages so
far. Sooner or later...

Not a "disc" brake in sight in my house (except that rim brakes are disc
brakes). One bike with brifters. No CFRP, no AL or Ti frames. All
Brooks saddles of one sort or another. Tan wall tires, polished rims.

I'm not keeping up with the times, I guess. What a Luddite! But hey, I
do have one of those fancy newfangled ISIS BBs on one of my bikes.
Wait, those are 15-20 years old too...

ISIS sucks. I went through ISIS BBs like Kleenex. I was happy when the crank broke, and I was rid of it.

My only old bike is '69 Raleigh Pro track bike -- all NR components with wheels I built back in the '70s. Its now my roller bike.

My fleet of four road/gravel bikes is relatively new because of breakage or theft. All discs except one. Three STI, one Di2. No leather saddles, which I never liked. One aluminum and three CF frames. Each one loved and cherished.

I do regret upgrading my commuter, but I sort of had no choice. It's a warranty replacement frame (CAADX) designed for hydraulics, and the cable brakes didn't work well because of cable routing and housing friction. Upgrading to hydraulics meant going with 11sp. 11sp chains and cassettes wear too quickly. It's nice having all the gears, though -- but certainly not necessary.

I also miss not having a through-hole in the crown of my commuter, and I miss the threaded BB. The CAADX frame came with BB30 and a CF disc fork with no through hole or front threaded boss for my dyno light -- just a threaded boss in the back. I might drill one -- its an aluminum steerer, so I know there is metal in there somewhere!

One good thing about discs (besides stopping well) is that I can use giant tires -- like 35mm studs on my commuter with fenders, assuming it snows. Discs are a plus for me.

-- Jay Beattie.


And then there's pilot meatware, an essential component of
bike control.

This came to me today from Evanston IL as part of a longer
email. His Eastman is a Raleigh Dl-1 Roadster clone modified
with cantilevers and 700-40 Michelins on aluminum rims:

" Interesting mechanical story for you. Was out riding the
Eastman with a friend. He was on his 15 pound BMC with Dura
Ace hydro discs. It was wet, puddles, rain had stopped but
misty. Rims completely wet. We're chatting away and were
inattentive. Coming up to a T-intersection and planning on a
left. Visibility to the right is badly obstructed. It's a
20mph speed zone but with school, park, train station, old
folks home, shopping, traffic is normally quite slow. Except
when someone is coming through at 40mph. So full panic
braking. Which I had not done on the Eastman in all the 15
years I've had it. Brakes grabbed immediately in the wet. No
excitement at all.

" My friend had a harder time. His back tire slipped and
came around. Car was gone by time he was stable. Way too
close. He was doing a lot of things right. 28mm GP5000 at
70psi. Not sitting as low as I would prefer but lower than
the guys he rides with. Jerry is late 50s and is still in
the 40mph sprint group every Sunday. Ten years ago he was
driving the train, now he's wheelsucking, but he does it.
One thing surprised me. He did not slide off saddle to rear,
did not weight back wheel. Had never even heard of that.
He's a flatlander like me but has probably visited the
mountains more than I have. He just never learned to do
that. Even with 66 degree seat angle I was off the saddle
and back. "

Moving weight back is not magic or special knowledge for an experienced cyclists. I'm suspicious of the stories about the guy who is the Cat 2 quality rider who doesn't know about getting his or her weight back to panic stop. It's always some story of a guy on 40mm tires schooling the guy on the 15lb bike.

One part of the story that does resonate is skidding the rear wheel. A rear hydro-disc has far more rear braking power than calipers or cable discs. It takes a few rides before you learn not to be ham-handed. I fish-tailed a few times when I was getting the hang of it. Rear brakes tend to be squishy, and you don't get that with hydro discs.

I don't doubt that you get the hang of it in a few rides; but I'd worry about
when it comes up in a panic situation. Will you still have the hang of it when
it's just the lizard part of your brain operating your muscle memory?

- Frank Krygowski

You get much better feedback with most disk brakes than you get with for instance old V brakes. As you mentioned more than once her you don't come in panic situations so you don't have to worry.

Lou

On 12/7/2019 3:57 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 5:31:42 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 10:57:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:

One part of the story that does resonate is skidding the rear wheel. A rear hydro-disc has far more rear braking power than calipers or cable discs. It takes a few rides before you learn not to be ham-handed. I fish-tailed a few times when I was getting the hang of it. Rear brakes tend to be squishy, and you don't get that with hydro discs.

I don't doubt that you get the hang of it in a few rides; but I'd worry about
when it comes up in a panic situation. Will you still have the hang of it when
it's just the lizard part of your brain operating your muscle memory?

You get much better feedback with most disk brakes than you get with for instance old V brakes. As you mentioned more than once her you don't come in panic situations so you don't have to worry.

Right, I tend to watch things developing way ahead and react early. The
only panic braking situation I recall was maybe five years ago, when I
was coasting over 30 mph on a shady downhill and a young fawn trotted
out in front of me. Honestly, I think I was lucky to not crash.

But that was with brakes I'd used for decades. I strongly suspect that
if I had new disc brakes on that bike, I'd have gone down.

It reminds me of a motorcycle safety article I read years back. They
advised that every MC rider begin each riding season by practicing panic
stops. They said otherwise, you won't remember how your bike brakes when
it's really necessary. (And I'll remind people that motorcycling is
many, many times more dangerous than bicycling, with oncoming cars "left
crosses" being dominant in motorcycle deaths.)

I suppose that's not bad advice for bicyclists, too. Practice your quick
stops occasionally. Learn your brakes, _especially_ if you've got a new
bike with a different type of brake.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 1:54:14 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/7/2019 3:57 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 5:31:42 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 10:57:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:

One part of the story that does resonate is skidding the rear wheel. A rear hydro-disc has far more rear braking power than calipers or cable discs. It takes a few rides before you learn not to be ham-handed. I fish-tailed a few times when I was getting the hang of it. Rear brakes tend to be squishy, and you don't get that with hydro discs.

I don't doubt that you get the hang of it in a few rides; but I'd worry about
when it comes up in a panic situation. Will you still have the hang of it when
it's just the lizard part of your brain operating your muscle memory?

You get much better feedback with most disk brakes than you get with for instance old V brakes. As you mentioned more than once her you don't come in panic situations so you don't have to worry.

Right, I tend to watch things developing way ahead and react early. The
only panic braking situation I recall was maybe five years ago, when I
was coasting over 30 mph on a shady downhill and a young fawn trotted
out in front of me. Honestly, I think I was lucky to not crash.

But that was with brakes I'd used for decades. I strongly suspect that
if I had new disc brakes on that bike, I'd have gone down.

It reminds me of a motorcycle safety article I read years back. They
advised that every MC rider begin each riding season by practicing panic
stops. They said otherwise, you won't remember how your bike brakes when
it's really necessary. (And I'll remind people that motorcycling is
many, many times more dangerous than bicycling, with oncoming cars "left
crosses" being dominant in motorcycle deaths.)

I suppose that's not bad advice for bicyclists, too. Practice your quick
stops occasionally. Learn your brakes, _especially_ if you've got a new
bike with a different type of brake.

Agreed. Going over the bars in a panic stop has nothing to do with disk brakes. It is bad luck or poor braking technique.

Lou

On Sunday, 8 December 2019 02:10:37 UTC-5, wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 1:54:14 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/7/2019 3:57 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 5:31:42 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 10:57:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:

One part of the story that does resonate is skidding the rear wheel.. A rear hydro-disc has far more rear braking power than calipers or cable discs. It takes a few rides before you learn not to be ham-handed. I fish-tailed a few times when I was getting the hang of it. Rear brakes tend to be squishy, and you don't get that with hydro discs.

I don't doubt that you get the hang of it in a few rides; but I'd worry about
when it comes up in a panic situation. Will you still have the hang of it when
it's just the lizard part of your brain operating your muscle memory?

You get much better feedback with most disk brakes than you get with for instance old V brakes. As you mentioned more than once her you don't come in panic situations so you don't have to worry.

Right, I tend to watch things developing way ahead and react early. The
only panic braking situation I recall was maybe five years ago, when I
was coasting over 30 mph on a shady downhill and a young fawn trotted
out in front of me. Honestly, I think I was lucky to not crash.

But that was with brakes I'd used for decades. I strongly suspect that
if I had new disc brakes on that bike, I'd have gone down.

It reminds me of a motorcycle safety article I read years back. They
advised that every MC rider begin each riding season by practicing panic
stops. They said otherwise, you won't remember how your bike brakes when
it's really necessary. (And I'll remind people that motorcycling is
many, many times more dangerous than bicycling, with oncoming cars "left
crosses" being dominant in motorcycle deaths.)

I suppose that's not bad advice for bicyclists, too. Practice your quick
stops occasionally. Learn your brakes, _especially_ if you've got a new
bike with a different type of brake.

Agreed. Going over the bars in a panic stop has nothing to do with disk brakes. It is bad luck or poor braking technique.

Lou

Many many years ago I was riding my Dura Ace AX equipped bicycle down Broadview Avenue in Toronto Canada beside Riverdale Park. The lane I was in narrowed and a streetcar passing me was squeezing me into parked cars. I hit the brakes hard and the rear wheel lifted quite a bit from the road. I immediately let go of the front brake lever and then reapplied it in a pumping motion. I was sure surprised how good those Dura Ace AX brakes were.

Like you said Lou, it's technique that prevents on from going over the handlebar.

Cheers

On 12/8/2019 4:43 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 8 December 2019 02:10:37 UTC-5, wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 1:54:14 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/7/2019 3:57 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 5:31:42 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 10:57:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:

One part of the story that does resonate is skidding the rear wheel. A rear hydro-disc has far more rear braking power than calipers or cable discs. It takes a few rides before you learn not to be ham-handed. I fish-tailed a few times when I was getting the hang of it. Rear brakes tend to be squishy, and you don't get that with hydro discs.

I don't doubt that you get the hang of it in a few rides; but I'd worry about
when it comes up in a panic situation. Will you still have the hang of it when
it's just the lizard part of your brain operating your muscle memory?

You get much better feedback with most disk brakes than you get with for instance old V brakes. As you mentioned more than once her you don't come in panic situations so you don't have to worry.

Right, I tend to watch things developing way ahead and react early. The
only panic braking situation I recall was maybe five years ago, when I
was coasting over 30 mph on a shady downhill and a young fawn trotted
out in front of me. Honestly, I think I was lucky to not crash.

But that was with brakes I'd used for decades. I strongly suspect that
if I had new disc brakes on that bike, I'd have gone down.

It reminds me of a motorcycle safety article I read years back. They
advised that every MC rider begin each riding season by practicing panic
stops. They said otherwise, you won't remember how your bike brakes when
it's really necessary. (And I'll remind people that motorcycling is
many, many times more dangerous than bicycling, with oncoming cars "left
crosses" being dominant in motorcycle deaths.)

I suppose that's not bad advice for bicyclists, too. Practice your quick
stops occasionally. Learn your brakes, _especially_ if you've got a new
bike with a different type of brake.

Agreed. Going over the bars in a panic stop has nothing to do with disk brakes. It is bad luck or poor braking technique.

Lou

Many many years ago I was riding my Dura Ace AX equipped bicycle down Broadview Avenue in Toronto Canada beside Riverdale Park. The lane I was in narrowed and a streetcar passing me was squeezing me into parked cars. I hit the brakes hard and the rear wheel lifted quite a bit from the road. I immediately let go of the front brake lever and then reapplied it in a pumping motion. I was sure surprised how good those Dura Ace AX brakes were.

Like you said Lou, it's technique that prevents on from going over the handlebar.

But you can't have good technique if you're not very familiar with the
brakes, and with how much lever force is required for a fast stop!

As I've mentioned, I've seen a woman go over the bars when she was
trying to demonstrate a quick stop while riding her boyfriend's bike.
His bike had the then-new Dual Pivots. Her normal bike did not.

And I have two automotive analogies. My father once owned a 1959
Pontiac, his first car with power brakes. Those were extreme. The brake
pedal required almost no foot pressure for a normal stop. I'm sure that
if a really fast stop had been required within the first few weeks of
ownership, all four wheels would have locked up. I'm also sure that most
modern drivers, if given a chance to drive that (now) antique, would
lock up the brakes.

The second example: I've always owned cars with manual transmissions,
although I've driven automatics plenty of times. But I recall an
incident when I drove an automatic and decided to use two feet for two
pedals - that is, I used my left "clutch" foot for the brake. On that
drive, I slowed for a traffic light, and just before I got to the light,
my left foot twitched habitually, since it was used to pushing in the
clutch at that moment. No harm was done, it merely caused the car to
jerk - but it shows that muscle memory is hard to modify.

If you get new brakes of a different type, practice with them.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, 8 December 2019 11:12:27 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/8/2019 4:43 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 8 December 2019 02:10:37 UTC-5, wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 1:54:14 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/7/2019 3:57 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 5:31:42 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 10:57:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:

One part of the story that does resonate is skidding the rear wheel. A rear hydro-disc has far more rear braking power than calipers or cable discs. It takes a few rides before you learn not to be ham-handed. I fish-tailed a few times when I was getting the hang of it. Rear brakes tend to be squishy, and you don't get that with hydro discs.

I don't doubt that you get the hang of it in a few rides; but I'd worry about
when it comes up in a panic situation. Will you still have the hang of it when
it's just the lizard part of your brain operating your muscle memory?

You get much better feedback with most disk brakes than you get with for instance old V brakes. As you mentioned more than once her you don't come in panic situations so you don't have to worry.

Right, I tend to watch things developing way ahead and react early. The
only panic braking situation I recall was maybe five years ago, when I
was coasting over 30 mph on a shady downhill and a young fawn trotted
out in front of me. Honestly, I think I was lucky to not crash.

But that was with brakes I'd used for decades. I strongly suspect that
if I had new disc brakes on that bike, I'd have gone down.

It reminds me of a motorcycle safety article I read years back. They
advised that every MC rider begin each riding season by practicing panic
stops. They said otherwise, you won't remember how your bike brakes when
it's really necessary. (And I'll remind people that motorcycling is
many, many times more dangerous than bicycling, with oncoming cars "left
crosses" being dominant in motorcycle deaths.)

I suppose that's not bad advice for bicyclists, too. Practice your quick
stops occasionally. Learn your brakes, _especially_ if you've got a new
bike with a different type of brake.

Agreed. Going over the bars in a panic stop has nothing to do with disk brakes. It is bad luck or poor braking technique.

Lou

Many many years ago I was riding my Dura Ace AX equipped bicycle down Broadview Avenue in Toronto Canada beside Riverdale Park. The lane I was in narrowed and a streetcar passing me was squeezing me into parked cars. I hit the brakes hard and the rear wheel lifted quite a bit from the road. I immediately let go of the front brake lever and then reapplied it in a pumping motion. I was sure surprised how good those Dura Ace AX brakes were.

Like you said Lou, it's technique that prevents on from going over the handlebar.

But you can't have good technique if you're not very familiar with the
brakes, and with how much lever force is required for a fast stop!

As I've mentioned, I've seen a woman go over the bars when she was
trying to demonstrate a quick stop while riding her boyfriend's bike.
His bike had the then-new Dual Pivots. Her normal bike did not.

And I have two automotive analogies. My father once owned a 1959
Pontiac, his first car with power brakes. Those were extreme. The brake
pedal required almost no foot pressure for a normal stop. I'm sure that
if a really fast stop had been required within the first few weeks of
ownership, all four wheels would have locked up. I'm also sure that most
modern drivers, if given a chance to drive that (now) antique, would
lock up the brakes.

The second example: I've always owned cars with manual transmissions,
although I've driven automatics plenty of times. But I recall an
incident when I drove an automatic and decided to use two feet for two
pedals - that is, I used my left "clutch" foot for the brake. On that
drive, I slowed for a traffic light, and just before I got to the light,
my left foot twitched habitually, since it was used to pushing in the
clutch at that moment. No harm was done, it merely caused the car to
jerk - but it shows that muscle memory is hard to modify.

If you get new brakes of a different type, practice with them.


--
- Frank Krygowski

So, you buy a bicycle with a brake type you've never used before and you don't have sense enough to take it someplace like to an empty parking lot and there practice braking under different conditions? LOL To me it's just common sense to practice using unfamiliar equipment in a safe location brofre venturing out on the road with it.

Same as in winter; I go to an outdoor skating rink or a safe area where there's ice and practice riding and braking on that ice.

Cheers

On 12/8/2019 1:25 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 8 December 2019 11:12:27 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/8/2019 4:43 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 8 December 2019 02:10:37 UTC-5, wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 1:54:14 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/7/2019 3:57 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 5:31:42 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 10:57:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:

One part of the story that does resonate is skidding the rear wheel. A rear hydro-disc has far more rear braking power than calipers or cable discs. It takes a few rides before you learn not to be ham-handed. I fish-tailed a few times when I was getting the hang of it. Rear brakes tend to be squishy, and you don't get that with hydro discs.

I don't doubt that you get the hang of it in a few rides; but I'd worry about
when it comes up in a panic situation. Will you still have the hang of it when
it's just the lizard part of your brain operating your muscle memory?

You get much better feedback with most disk brakes than you get with for instance old V brakes. As you mentioned more than once her you don't come in panic situations so you don't have to worry.

Right, I tend to watch things developing way ahead and react early. The
only panic braking situation I recall was maybe five years ago, when I
was coasting over 30 mph on a shady downhill and a young fawn trotted
out in front of me. Honestly, I think I was lucky to not crash.

But that was with brakes I'd used for decades. I strongly suspect that
if I had new disc brakes on that bike, I'd have gone down.

It reminds me of a motorcycle safety article I read years back. They
advised that every MC rider begin each riding season by practicing panic
stops. They said otherwise, you won't remember how your bike brakes when
it's really necessary. (And I'll remind people that motorcycling is
many, many times more dangerous than bicycling, with oncoming cars "left
crosses" being dominant in motorcycle deaths.)

I suppose that's not bad advice for bicyclists, too. Practice your quick
stops occasionally. Learn your brakes, _especially_ if you've got a new
bike with a different type of brake.

Agreed. Going over the bars in a panic stop has nothing to do with disk brakes. It is bad luck or poor braking technique.

Lou

Many many years ago I was riding my Dura Ace AX equipped bicycle down Broadview Avenue in Toronto Canada beside Riverdale Park. The lane I was in narrowed and a streetcar passing me was squeezing me into parked cars. I hit the brakes hard and the rear wheel lifted quite a bit from the road. I immediately let go of the front brake lever and then reapplied it in a pumping motion. I was sure surprised how good those Dura Ace AX brakes were.

Like you said Lou, it's technique that prevents on from going over the handlebar.

But you can't have good technique if you're not very familiar with the
brakes, and with how much lever force is required for a fast stop!

As I've mentioned, I've seen a woman go over the bars when she was
trying to demonstrate a quick stop while riding her boyfriend's bike.
His bike had the then-new Dual Pivots. Her normal bike did not.

And I have two automotive analogies. My father once owned a 1959
Pontiac, his first car with power brakes. Those were extreme. The brake
pedal required almost no foot pressure for a normal stop. I'm sure that
if a really fast stop had been required within the first few weeks of
ownership, all four wheels would have locked up. I'm also sure that most
modern drivers, if given a chance to drive that (now) antique, would
lock up the brakes.

The second example: I've always owned cars with manual transmissions,
although I've driven automatics plenty of times. But I recall an
incident when I drove an automatic and decided to use two feet for two
pedals - that is, I used my left "clutch" foot for the brake. On that
drive, I slowed for a traffic light, and just before I got to the light,
my left foot twitched habitually, since it was used to pushing in the
clutch at that moment. No harm was done, it merely caused the car to
jerk - but it shows that muscle memory is hard to modify.

If you get new brakes of a different type, practice with them.


--
- Frank Krygowski

So, you buy a bicycle with a brake type you've never used before and you don't have sense enough to take it someplace like to an empty parking lot and there practice braking under different conditions? LOL To me it's just common sense to practice using unfamiliar equipment in a safe location brofre venturing out on the road with it.

As I've hinted, I would have sense enough to practice. I definitely do
that practice with my motorcycle each spring. Not a lot of practice, I
admit, but I do several panic stops just to remember the feel of it.

I did once get that motorcycle a bit sideways by skidding the rear when
someone pulled out in front of me. Without the practice, that might have
happened more.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 8:00:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/8/2019 1:25 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 8 December 2019 11:12:27 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/8/2019 4:43 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 8 December 2019 02:10:37 UTC-5, wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 1:54:14 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/7/2019 3:57 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 5:31:42 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 10:57:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:

One part of the story that does resonate is skidding the rear wheel. A rear hydro-disc has far more rear braking power than calipers or cable discs. It takes a few rides before you learn not to be ham-handed. I fish-tailed a few times when I was getting the hang of it. Rear brakes tend to be squishy, and you don't get that with hydro discs.

I don't doubt that you get the hang of it in a few rides; but I'd worry about
when it comes up in a panic situation. Will you still have the hang of it when
it's just the lizard part of your brain operating your muscle memory?

You get much better feedback with most disk brakes than you get with for instance old V brakes. As you mentioned more than once her you don't come in panic situations so you don't have to worry.

Right, I tend to watch things developing way ahead and react early. The
only panic braking situation I recall was maybe five years ago, when I
was coasting over 30 mph on a shady downhill and a young fawn trotted
out in front of me. Honestly, I think I was lucky to not crash.

But that was with brakes I'd used for decades. I strongly suspect that
if I had new disc brakes on that bike, I'd have gone down.

It reminds me of a motorcycle safety article I read years back. They
advised that every MC rider begin each riding season by practicing panic
stops. They said otherwise, you won't remember how your bike brakes when
it's really necessary. (And I'll remind people that motorcycling is
many, many times more dangerous than bicycling, with oncoming cars "left
crosses" being dominant in motorcycle deaths.)

I suppose that's not bad advice for bicyclists, too. Practice your quick
stops occasionally. Learn your brakes, _especially_ if you've got a new
bike with a different type of brake.

Agreed. Going over the bars in a panic stop has nothing to do with disk brakes. It is bad luck or poor braking technique.

Lou

Many many years ago I was riding my Dura Ace AX equipped bicycle down Broadview Avenue in Toronto Canada beside Riverdale Park. The lane I was in narrowed and a streetcar passing me was squeezing me into parked cars. I hit the brakes hard and the rear wheel lifted quite a bit from the road. I immediately let go of the front brake lever and then reapplied it in a pumping motion. I was sure surprised how good those Dura Ace AX brakes were.

Like you said Lou, it's technique that prevents on from going over the handlebar.

But you can't have good technique if you're not very familiar with the
brakes, and with how much lever force is required for a fast stop!

As I've mentioned, I've seen a woman go over the bars when she was
trying to demonstrate a quick stop while riding her boyfriend's bike.
His bike had the then-new Dual Pivots. Her normal bike did not.

And I have two automotive analogies. My father once owned a 1959
Pontiac, his first car with power brakes. Those were extreme. The brake
pedal required almost no foot pressure for a normal stop. I'm sure that
if a really fast stop had been required within the first few weeks of
ownership, all four wheels would have locked up. I'm also sure that most
modern drivers, if given a chance to drive that (now) antique, would
lock up the brakes.

The second example: I've always owned cars with manual transmissions,
although I've driven automatics plenty of times. But I recall an
incident when I drove an automatic and decided to use two feet for two
pedals - that is, I used my left "clutch" foot for the brake. On that
drive, I slowed for a traffic light, and just before I got to the light,
my left foot twitched habitually, since it was used to pushing in the
clutch at that moment. No harm was done, it merely caused the car to
jerk - but it shows that muscle memory is hard to modify.

If you get new brakes of a different type, practice with them.


--
- Frank Krygowski

So, you buy a bicycle with a brake type you've never used before and you don't have sense enough to take it someplace like to an empty parking lot and there practice braking under different conditions? LOL To me it's just common sense to practice using unfamiliar equipment in a safe location brofre venturing out on the road with it.

As I've hinted, I would have sense enough to practice. I definitely do
that practice with my motorcycle each spring. Not a lot of practice, I
admit, but I do several panic stops just to remember the feel of it.

I did once get that motorcycle a bit sideways by skidding the rear when
someone pulled out in front of me. Without the practice, that might have
happened more.

--
- Frank Krygowski

- get to know what you are riding. Should not take more than half a ride.
- always be aware what can happen and anticipate. This is experience. A lot of people ride around like nothing can happen to them.
- first try to steer. A lot of people slam their brakes unnecessary.
- learn how to brake hard. Practice. Every time I have to break in new pads for my disk brakes it is a practice ;-)

Lou
-
-

On Fri, 06 Dec 2019 16:29:18 -0600, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/6/2019 3:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 1:28:54 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:07:23 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2019 08:03:46 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/29/2019 11:44 PM, Chalo wrote:
I notice they have specified a perverse hole pattern. No one's
interest is served that way. Not even the manufacturer's,
because smart and experienced cyclists will avoid it.


It's the way of the world now, when a 22 year old with a CadCam
software can displace an experienced engineer. Hell, we just
changed a worn 53t 2009 Campagnolo chainring on a Record carbon
crank which entailed _both_ chainrings _and_ the bolt set for the
2011 style which are available, the 2009 being incompatible and
unavailable. And Campagnolo is not the worst of it.

Thank goodness I have four sets of TA cranks and over a dozen
unused chain rings. Those should see me out.

I'm still using my Ritchey Logic 110 mm cranks on almost all my
bikes. Ought to be rings available for those for a long time.

And, LOL, 8sp Shimano cassettes. Seems like the dark ages now, what
with 11sp being de rigeur, except for one bike with a 7sp freewheel
which I guess is the darker ages. But it's a 135 mm OLN and thus
has almost zero dish- same spokes since 1996 with no breakages so
far. Sooner or later...

Not a "disc" brake in sight in my house (except that rim brakes are
disc brakes). One bike with brifters. No CFRP, no AL or Ti frames.
All Brooks saddles of one sort or another. Tan wall tires, polished
rims.

I'm not keeping up with the times, I guess. What a Luddite! But
hey, I do have one of those fancy newfangled ISIS BBs on one of my
bikes. Wait, those are 15-20 years old too...

I think that there are a couple of Chinese companies making 8 speed
cassettes. While they don't shift as smoothly as OEM, they are a hell
of a lot cheaper.


Shimano HG CS-8, besides SRAM, Suntour and SunRace compatibles, are
very available and dirt cheap. It's the standard thing for $400~$600
new bicycles nowadays. Any LBS which services not-quite-pro bicycles
will have a stack of them in stock.

Yeah, I've got some old XT 12-28 cassettes I stocked up on. I find
that after a few years I break a rivet or two that holds the cogs onto
the aluminum carrier. That happens before the teeth are worn out,
usually. The cheaper ones might actually be better, in this regard, if
slightly heavier.

On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 17:21:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

When I was a kid and into cars and motorcycles, I thought it was cool
to have exotic stuff, cutting edge stuff, or stuff hardly anybody else
had.

snip

Eventually I decided exotic stuff was often more trouble than it's
worth. I decided not to be an early adopter.

I'm still waiting to see if clipless pedals are going to really catch
on. ;-)

LOL! I am no longer an early adopter either. My last early adoptions
were the internet in about 1992, with a Mac 512Ke and Ed Krol's book,
later also Adam Engst's Internet Starter Kit. And Shimano STI in 1992
then Campy Ergo in, what, 1994? I liked Ergo better because the brake
lever didn't move sideways. But I have downtube friction shifters on
all of my current bikes except for the three speeds and the tandem
(whcih came with STI and it seems silly to change).

My wife is a much earlier adopter than me- had an iPhone, iPod, iPad,
etc., long before me. She was one of the early Twitter users, also
Instagram, etc. But neither of us have a Facebook account... and won't.