Flashing lights cause accidents -- police experience

On 14 Feb, 17:48, Andre Jute wrote:

as they do in The Netherlands, and flashing amber lights will no
longer be necessary. Hurry the day -- but don't do anything rash like

If you are to share the road safely with high speed motor vehicles on
a busy road then an amber beacon does seem most appropriate. For many
years it has been the standard for a slow moving vehicle or a recovery
vehicle attending an imobilized vehicle. It signifies that caution
should be erm.... (oops, cant think of the words, must take a nap).

On Feb 14, 1:20*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
As y'all know, in addition to steady dynamo lights (BUMM Cyo and
D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
identifiers.

Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
an apparently very experienced police instructor.http://www.policedriving..com/article145.htmThose who oppose effective
lights will see only that he says flashing lights cause "moth effect"
and other "confusion" accidents. What I see is that he says amber
flashing lights should be used instead of red and white. I've known
about the downsides of red and white flashing lights all along but
after considerable though decided that I'd rather be seen by a
possibly confused driver than be hit by him because he didn't see me
at all.

I knew about amber lights already -- every well-trained psychologist
knows; you'll remember I searched for amber flashing lights and found
none available to me. (I tried to order some from a police supplier
who refused to supply me because i wasn't the police! I noticed he
since went out of business.)

I wonder if it is worth writing to someone like Dealz Extreme and
telling them that they could make a buck if one of their suppliers
would put an amber lene on one of the good flashing lights they sell.
Yo, Scharfie, don't you put yourself forward as some kind of a bicycle
light consultant with contacts?

*Andre Jute
*"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument which must be
protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-Pelayo
Ricart Medina

get some brown/amber cellophane and a rubber band

On 14 Feb, 21:08, Henry wrote:
On Feb 14, 1:20*pm, Andre Jute wrote:



As y'all know, in addition to steady dynamo lights (BUMM Cyo and
D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
identifiers.

Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
an apparently very experienced police instructor.http://www.policedriving.com/article145.htmThosewho oppose effective
lights will see only that he says flashing lights cause "moth effect"
and other "confusion" accidents. What I see is that he says amber
flashing lights should be used instead of red and white. I've known
about the downsides of red and white flashing lights all along but
after considerable though decided that I'd rather be seen by a
possibly confused driver than be hit by him because he didn't see me
at all.

I knew about amber lights already -- every well-trained psychologist
knows; you'll remember I searched for amber flashing lights and found
none available to me. (I tried to order some from a police supplier
who refused to supply me because i wasn't the police! I noticed he
since went out of business.)

I wonder if it is worth writing to someone like Dealz Extreme and
telling them that they could make a buck if one of their suppliers
would put an amber lene on one of the good flashing lights they sell.
Yo, Scharfie, don't you put yourself forward as some kind of a bicycle
light consultant with contacts?

*Andre Jute
*"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument which must be
protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-Pelayo
Ricart Medina

get some brown/amber cellophane and a rubber band

The amber lights used in europe are of a specific colour, and it would
be well to stick to that. LED stop/tail lamps can be had from truck
motor factors and I'll hazard a guess that amber lights for recovery
trucks are also available as LEDs.

On Feb 14, 12:50*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Feb 14, 4:46*am, Sir Ridesalot wrote:



On Feb 13, 7:20*pm, Andre Jute wrote:

As y'all know, in addition to steady dynamo lights (BUMM Cyo and
D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
identifiers.

Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
an apparently very experienced police instructor.http://www.policedriving.com/article...Thosewhooppose effective
lights will see only that he says flashing lights cause "moth effect"
and other "confusion" accidents. What I see is that he says amber
flashing lights should be used instead of red and white. I've known
about the downsides of red and white flashing lights all along but
after considerable though decided that I'd rather be seen by a
possibly confused driver than be hit by him because he didn't see me
at all.

I knew about amber lights already -- every well-trained psychologist
knows; you'll remember I searched for amber flashing lights and found
none available to me. (I tried to order some from a police supplier
who refused to supply me because i wasn't the police! I noticed he
since went out of business.)

I wonder if it is worth writing to someone like Dealz Extreme and
telling them that they could make a buck if one of their suppliers
would put an amber lene on one of the good flashing lights they sell.
Yo, Scharfie, don't you put yourself forward as some kind of a bicycle
light consultant with contacts?

*Andre Jute
*"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument which must be
protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-Pelayo
Ricart Medina

Hi there.

It's nice to see that studies seem to agree with my present rear
lighting setup. Many years ago I had one of those Belt Beacons Andrew
mentioned. It was a fantastic light but my bicycle was not considered
legal for night riding because it did not have either a red reflector
or a red light on the rear. I added a small red reflector to make it
legal.

Now I have four rear lights permanently attached to a Minoura T-bar
that is mounted under my rear rack. The two outboard lights are red
and I run them on solid model whilst the two inboard lights are amber
and I run them on blinking mode. This make the bicycle legal and the
amber lights are recognized as cautionary by just about everyone. I
run two lights just in case one goes out whilst I'm riding and because
the two inboard amber lights are very visible at long distances when
they are both on.

Cheers from Peter

Mmm. I have a Minoura T-bar in my junkbox...

Which amber lights do you use, Peter, and how do you power them?

Andre Jute
I'm not a know-all. I don't need to be. I know who to ask.

Hi there.

I'm not sure who makes my amber lights. They are identical to my red
lights except the amber ones have amber LED's and lenses and have a
blue body instead of a black one. I bought them from the bicycling
department at Canadian Tire a few years ago. Each unit is powered by
two AAA batteries and they run for months on a set of Alkaline
batteries on the fastest flashing mode.

Cheers from Peter

On 14 Feb, 18:04, thirty-six wrote:
On 14 Feb, 17:41, Andre Jute wrote:



On Feb 14, 1:04*pm, thirty-six wrote:

On 14 Feb, 04:46, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

On Feb 13, 7:20*pm, Andre Jute wrote:

As y'all know, in addition to steady dynamo lights (BUMM Cyo and
D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
identifiers.

Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
an apparently very experienced police instructor.http://www.policedriving.com/article...pposeeffective
lights will see only that he says flashing lights cause "moth effect"
and other "confusion" accidents. What I see is that he says amber
flashing lights should be used instead of red and white. I've known
about the downsides of red and white flashing lights all along but
after considerable though decided that I'd rather be seen by a
possibly confused driver than be hit by him because he didn't see me
at all.

I knew about amber lights already -- every well-trained psychologist
knows; you'll remember I searched for amber flashing lights and found
none available to me. (I tried to order some from a police supplier
who refused to supply me because i wasn't the police! I noticed he
since went out of business.)

I wonder if it is worth writing to someone like Dealz Extreme and
telling them that they could make a buck if one of their suppliers
would put an amber lene on one of the good flashing lights they sell.
Yo, Scharfie, don't you put yourself forward as some kind of a bicycle
light consultant with contacts?

*Andre Jute
*"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument which must be
protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-Pelayo
Ricart Medina

Hi there.

It's nice to see that studies seem to agree with my present rear
lighting setup. Many years ago I had one of those Belt Beacons Andrew
mentioned. It was a fantastic light but my bicycle was not considered
legal for night riding because it did not have either a red reflector
or a red light on the rear. I added a small red reflector to make it
legal.

Now I have four rear lights permanently attached to a Minoura T-bar
that is mounted under my rear rack. The two outboard lights are red
and I run them on solid model whilst the two inboard lights are amber
and I run them on blinking mode. This make the bicycle legal and the
amber lights are recognized as cautionary by just about everyone. I
run two lights just in case one goes out whilst I'm riding and because
the two inboard amber lights are very visible at long distances when
they are both on.

Cheers from Peter

In UK, amber flashing lights are suggested for users of mobility
scooters (powered wheelchair) when used on dual carriageways (treated
by motorists as motorways, some actually are, although not legally
defined as such) not subjected to a speed limit less than 50mph
(IIRC). *So, although not legal on a bicycle here the addition of a
tow truck beacon to ones luggage could be well worthwhile.

I thought the law was more general, that a flashing amber light is
compulsory on a slow-moving vehicle, like a tractor or one of those
huge low-loaders they use to move road machinery.

I think its only on derestricted dual carriageways and motorways that
they are a legal requirement. *Wide loads are restricted to 30mph on
motorways which gives an official speed differential with cars of
40mph. *All escorted oversize loads have warning beacons on whatever
road. *It's this 40mph differential that I think it is worked by. *So
if a dual carriageway is limited to 40mph, the big danger will be for
foot users on the carriageway. *If the maximum is 50mph then scooter
users come in. Of course this also means cyclists, especially at the
higher limit of 60 or 70mph but no suggestion can be found.



In the light of modern research, it is stupid to ban amber lights for
bicycle use.

They're not banned, I think they are permitted as direction
indicators.

and (in UK) they are also permitted as pedal lights (constant not
flashing). Amber pedal reflectors are required, in general and it
seems that any colour wheel reflector is allowed (odd).

Which amber lights do you use, Peter, and how do you power them?

Andre Jute

A little Googling turned up this RealLITE GOLD amber light:

http://www.reallite.com/details.htm

Pat Clancy

Hi,

Andre Jute wrote:
As y'all know, in addition to steady dynamo lights (BUMM Cyo and
D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
identifiers.

Which would make your bike illegal on any public street in Germany. The
following is the one (and only) legal setup he

- 1 white front light (non-flashing)
- 1 red rear light (non-flashing)
- 1 Dynamo 6V 3W (to power the lights)
- about 15 reflectors:
- 1 white in front,
- 1 red at the rear,
- 1 red at the rear (Z-Reflector),
- 8 in the wheels (two per wheel, two sides of the wheel, two wheels),
- 4 in the pedals.

All lighting equipment must be approved and be marked with a "K"-Number.

Additionally there's a media-generated hype that makes a remarkable
number of cyclists carry reflective vests, plastic hats, ...

The german version of AAA actively requests school children to wear
reflective vests so that car drivers can speed and not get the blame if
they run children over, because the children are to blame for not
wearing carnival-colored vests?!

Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
an apparently very experienced police instructor.
....

Basically that's a more picturesque description for the long-known fact
that the human visual system (a) cannot correctly place flashing lights
and (2) is most susceptible to movement (blinking) to allow the Hunter
see his prey - even if the prey is well-camouflaged.

As a result, a cyclist with good, bright, non-flashing lights is much
safer in normal traffic, as has been explained on this news group
several times.

Now, I do acknowledge the desire of the ordinary cyclist to have
"extravagant" lighting, i.e. flashing lights. I do attribute that to the
fact that car's headlights have evolved from dim yellow glowing bulbs to
massively blinding overly-bright "weapons" - with many car drivers
running their lights even during the day and adding their fog front
lights as soon as the sun is not shining. Add in stupid (illegal here)
light effects (e.g. lights below the car). This makes cyclists,
pedestrians and CHILDREN practically invisible (they have no light or
are restricted to 3 Watt lights).

Also I do have the problem that I cycle regularly at night through a
park where there are lots of black-clad joggers. No way to see them
early with typical bike lights.

Next problem are the typical bike trails he outside of towns or
villages they are often on one side of the street, about 4m (12ft)
beside the street and 0.3m (1ft) below the street level. As a result a
cyclist is exactly in the zone, where the oncoming car's lights are
brightest (you are required to cycle on the wrong side of the street,
anyway), rendering the cyclist unable to see the cycle-trail (which is
very likely to have bumps, dirt or branches lying on it).

So basically as a cyclist you are required to be blinded - which
according to law requires you to stop. To put it bluntly: cycling is
almost forbidden.

I wonder if it is worth writing to someone like Dealz Extreme and
telling them that they could make a buck if one of their suppliers
would put an amber lene on one of the good flashing lights they sell.

There are enough "bike lights" out there that are not fit to be used on
a bicycle, without adding "amber flashers" - I regularly see more or
less "normal" flashlights held by the user (who is barely able to
control his/her bike, anyway) or clipped to the backpack, illuminating
the sky (whatever that's supposed to help).

A few years ago I had custom-modified my rear light and had replaced the
bulb with a few LEDs (one out of six blinking - the blinking was not
noticeable in normal conditions but only in case the dynamo failed
halfway home). After the modification I always felt safe from rear
traffic. Just recently I actually replaced that light with a stock "BUMM
Toplight Flat Plus" - this has only one LED, but is rather bright and
has a very small active area. Human perception is especially sensitive
to small, bright light sources, so this light is very effective.
Actually I do think that anyone who misses to see this rear light will
miss *any* bike rear light - no matter whether it flashes or not.

As for front lights, there are a lot of cyclists with these, too. Having
one come in your direction is actively dangerous, because you do not
really know where they are, you get distracted by these lights and they
do not see anything (because their eyes keep trying to adjust for
"bright - dark - bright - dark"). Again, a car driver who does not see a
normal (non-flashing) bike light, will not see *any* bike light. They
will be noticing nothing except their GPS, their phone and the child on
the rear seat.

So, there are two places left, where cyclists with normal lights are in
danger. One is a bridge - as cars are behind the bridge, they cannot see
the cyclist, and as cars cross the bridge, they only notice him too
late. Of course that bridge is not limited to a sensible speed (40km/h
would be ok, I guess), but cars usually drive 80-90 km/h. No way to
brake in time.

The other dangerous place for cyclists is the separated bike trail - at
the next intersection. Many bike trails are built to require the
cyclists (who wants to continue straight-on) to turn down the crossing
street for up to ten meters. This may sound little, but keep in mind
that the cyclist has to manage the obstacle (S-curve, sharp) and all the
while his (her) light is pointing into empty space (along the side
street). Especially at night, car drivers will not be able to see the
bike light and the cyclist's attention is focused on the obstacle -
creating a very dangerous intersection. In my home town, of eight
cyclists killed in 2008, five were cycling on the bike lane, exactly as
required by law. This is less a problem of light than a problem of road
construction (and German authorities are especially thick-headed).

So, in order to be safer, you could wear a head-light (which allows you
to actively "warn" car drivers who cut it too close). But putting
flashing lights on your bike will not help you much.

Hopefully my point of view is clear...

Ciao..

On Feb 15, 4:40*pm, Bernhard Agthe wrote:
Hi,

Andre Jute wrote:
As y'all know, in addition to steady dynamo lights (BUMM Cyo and
D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
identifiers.

Which would make your bike illegal on any public street in Germany. The
following is the one (and only) legal setup he

- 1 white front light (non-flashing)
- 1 red rear light (non-flashing)
- 1 Dynamo 6V 3W (to power the lights)
- about 15 reflectors:
* *- 1 white in front,
* *- 1 red at the rear,
* *- 1 red at the rear (Z-Reflector),
* *- 8 in the wheels (two per wheel, two sides of the wheel, two wheels),
* *- 4 in the pedals.

All lighting equipment must be approved and be marked with a "K"-Number.

Additionally there's a media-generated hype that makes a remarkable
number of cyclists carry reflective vests, plastic hats, ...

The german version of AAA actively requests school children to wear
reflective vests so that car drivers can speed and not get the blame if
they run children over, because the children are to blame for not
wearing carnival-colored vests?!

Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
an apparently very experienced police instructor.

...

Basically that's a more picturesque description for the long-known fact
that the human visual system (a) cannot correctly place flashing lights
and (2) is most susceptible to movement (blinking) to allow the Hunter
see his prey - even if the prey is well-camouflaged.

As a result, a cyclist with good, bright, non-flashing lights is much
safer in normal traffic, as has been explained on this news group
several times.

Now, I do acknowledge the desire of the ordinary cyclist to have
"extravagant" lighting, i.e. flashing lights. I do attribute that to the
fact that car's headlights have evolved from dim yellow glowing bulbs to
massively blinding overly-bright "weapons" - with many car drivers
running their lights even during the day and adding their fog front
lights as soon as the sun is not shining. Add in stupid (illegal here)
light effects (e.g. lights below the car). This makes cyclists,
pedestrians and CHILDREN practically invisible (they have no light or
are restricted to 3 Watt lights).

Also I do have the problem that I cycle regularly at night through a
park where there are lots of black-clad joggers. No way to see them
early with typical bike lights.

Next problem are the typical bike trails he outside of towns or
villages they are often on one side of the street, about 4m (12ft)
beside the street and 0.3m (1ft) below the street level. As a result a
cyclist is exactly in the zone, where the oncoming car's lights are
brightest (you are required to cycle on the wrong side of the street,
anyway), rendering the cyclist unable to see the cycle-trail (which is
very likely to have bumps, dirt or branches lying on it).

So basically as a cyclist you are required to be blinded - which
according to law requires you to stop. To put it bluntly: cycling is
almost forbidden.

I wonder if it is worth writing to someone like Dealz Extreme and
telling them that they could make a buck if one of their suppliers
would put an amber lene on one of the good flashing lights they sell.

There are enough "bike lights" out there that are not fit to be used on
a bicycle, without adding "amber flashers" - I regularly see more or
less "normal" flashlights held by the user (who is barely able to
control his/her bike, anyway) or clipped to the backpack, illuminating
the sky (whatever that's supposed to help).

A few years ago I had custom-modified my rear light and had replaced the
bulb with a few LEDs (one out of six blinking - the blinking was not
noticeable in normal conditions but only in case the dynamo failed
halfway home). After the modification I always felt safe from rear
traffic. Just recently I actually replaced that light with a stock "BUMM
Toplight Flat Plus" - this has only one LED, but is rather bright and
has a very small active area. Human perception is especially sensitive
to small, bright light sources, so this light is very effective.
Actually I do think that anyone who misses to see this rear light will
miss *any* bike rear light - no matter whether it flashes or not.

As for front lights, there are a lot of cyclists with these, too. Having
one come in your direction is actively dangerous, because you do not
really know where they are, you get distracted by these lights and they
do not see anything (because their eyes keep trying to adjust for
"bright - dark - bright - dark"). Again, a car driver who does not see a
normal (non-flashing) bike light, will not see *any* bike light. They
will be noticing nothing except their GPS, their phone and the child on
the rear seat.

So, there are two places left, where cyclists with normal lights are in
danger. One is a bridge - as cars are behind the bridge, they cannot see
the cyclist, and as cars cross the bridge, they only notice him too
late. Of course that bridge is not limited to a sensible speed (40km/h
would be ok, I guess), but cars usually drive 80-90 km/h. No way to
brake in time.

The other dangerous place for cyclists is the separated bike trail - at
the next intersection. Many bike trails are built to require the
cyclists (who wants to continue straight-on) to turn down the crossing
street for up to ten meters. This may sound little, but keep in mind
that the cyclist has to manage the obstacle (S-curve, sharp) and all the
while his (her) light is pointing into empty space (along the side
street). Especially at night, car drivers will not be able to see the
bike light and the cyclist's attention is focused on the obstacle -
creating a very dangerous intersection. In my home town, of eight
cyclists killed in 2008, five were cycling on the bike lane, exactly as
required by law. This is less a problem of light than a problem of road
construction (and German authorities are especially thick-headed).

So, in order to be safer, you could wear a head-light (which allows you
to actively "warn" car drivers who cut it too close). But putting
flashing lights on your bike will not help you much.

Hopefully my point of view is clear...

Ciao..

Your point of view is very clear, Bernard. I'm disappointed to hear
the German authorities are no more accomplished at arranging safe
cycling than my own...

As I predicted, those who oppose flashing lights saw only what they
wanted to see in this policeman's thoughtful and informed article.
That includes you. I forgive you, for you mean well.

However,

1. The hunter instinct you mention (thanks for bringing it up) is
indeed attracted to a blinking (moving) part of the landscape first.

2. It is well known in psychology that the best light to attract
attention is an amber light and the more so if it blinks.

3. The policeman cites a good deal of police and emergency experience
which adds up to the confirmation of the laboratory results.

4. I conclude that red steady lights for legal purposes and to
identify the rear of the bicycle, plus steady white lights ditto for
the front and of course to light up the road (now that dynamo LED
lights actually do perform that purpose adequately) are good,
especially if they are backed up by flashing amber lights that shout,
Look at me; I'm dangerous to your blunt instrument's panel- and paint-
work, to your driving license, to your continued freedom (if the
courts should get real), to your wealth, and to your conscience (if
you have one).

5. Too much of the debate, especially in the States, is conducted as
if the sole responsibility for the cyclist's safety lies with the
automobilist. Yet we're all, except for me, car drivers as well as
cyclists. It is the cyclist's responsibility to make himself visible
to drivers. And, if he doesn't think it is his responsibility *to
drivers* to make himself visible, he should consider the discrepancy
in mass and velocity between a car and a bicycle, and make himself
visible as his respoinsibility to his family and to society (at least
where there is socialized medicine).

6. Wherever this balance of responsibility lies, it should be clear by
now g that I think flashing lights help, and know that flashing
amber lights front and rear are superior to rear red and front white
flashing lights.

Andre Jute
Relentless rigour -- Gaius Germanicus Caesar
Popular translation: 'Of course I ran my chariot over the peasant on
his bicycle! He was on my road, wasn't he?' -- Caligula

On Feb 15, 12:53*pm, Pat Clancy wrote:
Which amber lights do you use, Peter, and how do you power them?

Andre Jute

A little Googling turned up this RealLITE GOLD amber light:

http://www.reallite.com/details.htm

Thanks, Pat. I live in Ireland and the problem as always is to get
lights here in one piece at some reasonable cost. There is also the
question of where and how to mount those lights on a fully fitted out
trekking bike as they supply seatpost and handlebar clamps only which
assume a bare racing bike; their fittings would leave the lights
behind my handlebar bag and my racktop bag. BTW, I think the guys
offering this light are recumbent riders as their lights appear to be
most thoroughly developed for 'bents.

Andre Jute
Visit Andre's recipes:
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/FOOD.html

Per Andre Jute:
Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
an apparently very experienced police instructor.
http://www.policedriving.com/article145.htm

In a local newspaper article last year a state police officer
characterized lights on a vehicle that is parked on the shoulder
as "drunk magnets".
--
PeteCresswell