WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

On Apr 16, 3:29 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Apr 16, 5:36 pm, Lou Holtman wrote:



On 2013-04-16 20:48:13 +0000, Frank Krygowski said:

On Apr 16, 11:56 am, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/16/2013 9:05 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:

On Apr 16, 1:35 am, sms wrote:
On 4/16/2013 12:21 AM, Andre Jute wrote:

On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:05:17 AM UTC+1, wrote:

You're coming to this one a bit late, "ide..." I haven't seen you around here.

I am sorry but, you are the joke here.

Don't be sorry. You're singing my song. I always wanted to be a standup
comedian, but it turned out I wasn't common enough for the clubs.

Have you considered the quality of the build? The precision?

Yes. Nothing special about it once you get above Taiwanese mass
production. As I demonstrated, for a third down to a fifth of Waterford
prices you get a high quality build with precision — elsewhere. At this
level, quality and precision are taken for granted; they're minimum
entry skills.

Have you ever compared the rootless "root" you considered your mxte....
compared to the "root" that waterfod people has had on modern cycling?

You can read about the prewar (that's not pre-Afghanistan, or pre-Gulf,
that's pre-World War II) roots of my mixte
athttp://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdfThehistoryyou
want starts in the second section, and in the third section you will
find photographs of Meister Kluwer who painted the coachlines on my
bike. Meister Kluwer (Meister is a title meaning Master that a few
exceptional craftsmen earn) worked on the line when the lineal ancestor
of my bike was first built by Locomotief in 1936.

Very well-written.

Too bad those bikes aren't available in the U.S.. I'm looking for
something better for the spousal unit's commute bike.

The Mixte frame I'm looking at is made in San Francisco
http://store.somafab.com/roadframes.html. Not too bad at $500.

Designed in San Francisco -- made in Taiwan.http://www.somafab.com/faqs
That's not a bad thing, though.

Correct. SOMA Buena Vista's a popular and inexpensive
quality frame, built in Free China ROC:http://www.yellowjersey.org/somagirl.jpg

Their model Creme is built in Poland. Nice bike, BTW, from
$795
complete:http://www.cremecycles.com/cycles/ho...y-lady-solo-de...

Or one might build a great bike from the Rivendell for a
whole lot less than $3K, including frame end
enhancementhttp://www.yellowjersey.org/kmdg.html

Taking nothing from the American builders, who yet command
the top level of custom
fabrication:http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr....jpghttp://www....

At the other end of the
spectrum:http://www.bianchiusa.com/bikes/stra...o/torino-dama/

Out of curiosity: If a person did buy a bike from an unusual country
(Poland, Netherlands, Switzerland, India, wherever...) would the
components we're familiar with fit, or would there be conflicts as in
the days of the old French bikes?



That is a strange question from someone from a bicycle third world country.

Indeed.


My question could have been phrased better. I intended to ask about
buying a bike from a country from which Americans don't usually buy
bikes. IOW, how universal are component standards?


Don't "Americans" (that is, the ones from that minority part of
Americas called USA) buy everything that's made anywhere? (... unless
it is perceived as a threat to the "proper" "culture", in which case
it may be outlawed, but then still bought, only at a premium.)

On 4/16/2013 5:33 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Apr 16, 5:13 pm, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/16/2013 4:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Apr 16, 5:02 pm, AMuzi wrote:

p.s. I have it on very good authority (Ms Swenink and Ms
Prystalski, who are experts) that Nederlands and Poland are
not unusual countries.

I suppose it's good to remember that the USA may be _the_ most unusual
country. That's true in both ways that are good and ways that are
bad.

Duly noted by Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto:

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would
be a rifle behind each blade of grass."

That's all that's kept the Canadians from conquering us, for sure!

But I think our gun fixation, weird as it is, is far from the biggest
difference between the U.S. and most other countries.

- Frank Krygowski


Canada? Really?
Apparently Mr Yamamoto's Royal Navy commission has been kept
a secret. At least from me.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Apr 16, 2:36*pm, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2013-04-16 20:48:13 +0000, Frank Krygowski said:









On Apr 16, 11:56*am, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/16/2013 9:05 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:

On Apr 16, 1:35 am, sms wrote:
On 4/16/2013 12:21 AM, Andre Jute wrote:

On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:05:17 AM UTC+1, wrote:

You're coming to this one a bit late, "ide..." I haven't seen you around here.

I am sorry but, you are the joke here.

Don't be sorry. You're singing my song. I always wanted to be a standup
comedian, but it turned out I wasn't common enough for the clubs.

Have you considered the quality of the build? The precision?

Yes. Nothing special about it once you get above Taiwanese mass
production. As I demonstrated, for a third down to a fifth of Waterford
prices you get a high quality build with precision — elsewhere. At this
level, quality and precision are taken for granted; they're minimum
entry skills.

Have you ever compared the rootless "root" you considered your mxte....
compared to the "root" that waterfod people has had on modern cycling?

You can read about the prewar (that's not pre-Afghanistan, or pre-Gulf,
that's pre-World War II) roots of my mixte
athttp://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdfThehistory you
want starts in the second section, and in the third section you will
find photographs of Meister Kluwer who painted the coachlines on my
bike. Meister Kluwer (Meister is a title meaning Master that a few
exceptional craftsmen earn) worked on the line when the lineal ancestor
of my bike was first built by Locomotief in 1936.

Very well-written.

Too bad those bikes aren't available in the U.S.. I'm looking for
something better for the spousal unit's commute bike.

The Mixte frame I'm looking at is made in San Francisco
http://store.somafab.com/roadframes.html. Not too bad at $500.

Designed in San Francisco -- made in Taiwan.http://www.somafab.com/faqs
That's not a bad thing, though.

Correct. SOMA Buena Vista's a popular and inexpensive
quality frame, built in Free China ROC:http://www.yellowjersey.org/somagirl.jpg

Their model Creme is built in Poland. Nice bike, BTW, from
$795
complete:http://www.cremecycles.com/cycles/ho...y-lady-solo-de...

Or one might build a great bike from the Rivendell for a
whole lot less than $3K, including frame end
enhancementhttp://www.yellowjersey.org/kmdg.html

Taking nothing from the American builders, who yet command
the top level of custom
fabrication:http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr....jpghttp://www....

At the other end of the
spectrum:http://www.bianchiusa.com/bikes/stra...o/torino-dama/

Out of curiosity: *If a person did buy a bike from an unusual country
(Poland, Netherlands, Switzerland, India, wherever...) would the
components we're familiar with fit, or would there be conflicts as in
the days of the old French bikes?

- Frank Krygowski

That is a strange question from someone from a bicycle third world country.

Lou, there were more bikes sold in the US in 20000 than there are
Dutch people -- by about 20% (20 million US bikes/16 million Dutch
people). Sure, we don't ride like they do in Amsterdam, but we do have
a lot of bikes, people and bike manufacturers (with mostly Asian
production, of course). Specialized, Cannondale, Trek, Kona, GT,
Jamis, etc., etc., etc. A Gazelle is a rarity over here -- well, not
in Portland because we have a store that sells them -- but I doubt
you're going to see one in Youngstown, unless Frank has one in his
garage. So, the question is not strange at all. I would wonder the
same thing if I bought a Gazelle or any one the 'fiets from Holland.
The only difference is that I could get a quick answer he
http://clevercycles.com/ -- our tribute-to-Holland bicycle shop in
PDX.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:35:19 AM UTC+1, sms wrote:
On 4/16/2013 12:21 AM, Andre Jute wrote:

You can read about the prewar (that's not pre-Afghanistan, or pre-Gulf, that's pre-World War II) roots of my mixte at http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf The history you want starts in the second section, and in the third section you will find photographs of Meister Kluwer who painted the coachlines on my bike. Meister Kluwer (Meister is a title meaning Master that a few exceptional craftsmen earn) worked on the line when the lineal ancestor of my bike was first built by Locomotief in 1936.

Very well-written.

Thanks, Steven.

Too bad those bikes aren't available in the U.S.. I'm looking for

something better for the spousal unit's commute bike.

Unless you live in Germany, it is a special problem to buy a Utopia. The factory does no direct sales. The bike is essentially sold to people who see the ten year guarantee and never ask the price; you won't get a discount. To maintain the guarantee, the bike has to be serviced and the service record stamped by an authorized dealer. The only authorized dealers are in Germany. Most of them won't sell a Utopia outside their assigned area, because they make their profit charging professional fees for servicing the bike every year, year on year. My own bike maintains its guarantee by special arrangement with the factory. So, first find a dealer who will ship to the US. It took me months to find a dealer I liked who would ship to Ireland. The next problem is that a Utopia costs a fair bit of money, probably too much to spend on a commuter that won't be supervised at work.

However, you can buy a frame for a Utopia, with all the fittings including the specially developed lugs, with a fork, fully painted, with all the special Columbus doublebutted tubes developed for this bike (it's lighter than it looks), for Euro 843, see https://ssl.utopia-fahrrad.de/4DCGI/tshop.a4d and scroll down past the 26in frames, but again the factory has no facility for shipping out of Germany, and you'll have to find a dealer to ship to you. For about USD 1100, this frame is a bargain if you're into balloon tires because it was designed from the ground up to storm over Alpine passes in great comfort at great speed regardless of the road surface, and in utmost security; right at the limit on tight downhills it handles with amazing predictability. I ride on the most appalling roads you can imagine, but I hardly notice them. I ride at 60kph through potholes that will buckle a roadie's wheel, and I don't even notice. My Utopia rides like Heinz Guderian having a good days in France: Obstacles, what obstacles? More about riding fast on balloons at http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/...p?topic=3798.0 -- I'm Hobbes on that board.

Now here's the good news. To amortize the cost of developing the crossframe for the 21st century, Utopia and their frame builders, Van Raam in the Netherlands, supply basically the same frame, built in the same jigs, presumably with less expensive (i.e. not so light) tubes, but with the same expensively developed special lugs, and the same dropouts, just without the stainless lining, to Work Cycles, which has a US presence. I were you, I'd look into the possibility of buying your wife a WorkCyces Kruisframe Step -through, which is their name for the more demotic version of my Kranich; see it at http://www.workcycles.com/home-produ...e-step-through and notice the very attractive prices, which start for a complete bike at the price of a Kranich frame... The SF dealer is http://www.mydutchbike.com

The Mixte frame I'm looking at is made in San Francisco

. Not too bad at $500.

Here's what I really want to do: go into a bicycle shop and buy a mixte

(or "mixte-like") commute bicycle that is complete or nearly so. It's

probably not possible to do such a thing in the U.S. anymore. The REI

Transfer is probably as close as you're going to get


frame, chainguard, dynamo hub, and rack, and the price isn't too bad.

But the 7 speed hub is a limitation. That means that it's going to not

be useable in places like San Francisco.

Here's a Rohloff-equipped low stepthrough bike on sale, made by Thorn, British makers who've been on my shortlist every year for about ten years because they make such good value, reliable bikes: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-rav...new-prod29970/. This one is for really small people but there's a larger model in that range for taller people.

Andre Jute

On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:48:13 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Apr 16, 11:56*am, AMuzi wrote:

On 4/16/2013 9:05 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:



















On Apr 16, 1:35 am, sms wrote:

On 4/16/2013 12:21 AM, Andre Jute wrote:



On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:05:17 AM UTC+1, wrote:



You're coming to this one a bit late, "ide..." I haven't seen you around here.



I am sorry but, you are the joke here.



Don't be sorry. You're singing my song. I always wanted to be a standup comedian, but it turned out I wasn't common enough for the clubs.



Have you considered the quality of the build? The precision?



Yes. Nothing special about it once you get above Taiwanese mass production. As I demonstrated, for a third down to a fifth of Waterford prices you get a high quality build with precision — elsewhere. At this level, quality and precision are taken for granted; they're minimum entry skills.



Have you ever compared the rootless "root" you considered your mxte.... compared to the "root" that waterfod people has had on modern cycling?



You can read about the prewar (that's not pre-Afghanistan, or pre-Gulf, that's pre-World War II) roots of my mixte athttp://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdfThe history you want starts in the second section, and in the third section you will find photographs of Meister Kluwer who painted the coachlines on my bike. Meister Kluwer (Meister is a title meaning Master that a few exceptional craftsmen earn) worked on the line when the lineal ancestor of my bike was first built by Locomotief in 1936.



Very well-written.



Too bad those bikes aren't available in the U.S.. I'm looking for

something better for the spousal unit's commute bike.



The Mixte frame I'm looking at is made in San Francisco

http://store.somafab.com/roadframes.html. Not too bad at $500.



Designed in San Francisco -- made in Taiwan.http://www.somafab.com/faqs

That's not a bad thing, though.



Correct. SOMA Buena Vista's a popular and inexpensive

quality frame, built in Free China ROC:http://www.yellowjersey.org/somagirl.jpg



Their model Creme is built in Poland. Nice bike, BTW, from

$795 complete:http://www.cremecycles.com/cycles/ho...y-lady-solo-de...



Or one might build a great bike from the Rivendell for a

whole lot less than $3K, including frame end enhancementhttp://www.yellowjersey.org/kmdg.html



Taking nothing from the American builders, who yet command

the top level of custom fabrication:http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...g/wfdopen.html



At the other end of the spectrum:http://www.bianchiusa.com/bikes/stra...o/torino-dama/



Out of curiosity: If a person did buy a bike from an unusual country

(Poland, Netherlands, Switzerland, India, wherever...) would the

components we're familiar with fit, or would there be conflicts as in

the days of the old French bikes?



- Frank Krygowski

The only American bicycle "standard" was the Ashtabula crank. Didn't Chalo, who knows a thing or two about strong components, hanker for its revival?

Andre Jute

On Apr 16, 7:27*pm, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/16/2013 5:33 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:









On Apr 16, 5:13 pm, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/16/2013 4:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Apr 16, 5:02 pm, AMuzi wrote:

p.s. I have it on very good authority (Ms Swenink and Ms
Prystalski, who are experts) that Nederlands and Poland are
not unusual countries.

I suppose it's good to remember that the USA may be _the_ most unusual
country. *That's true in both ways that are good and ways that are
bad.

Duly noted by Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto:

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would
be a rifle behind each blade of grass."

That's all that's kept the Canadians from conquering us, for sure!

But I think our gun fixation, weird as it is, is far from the biggest
difference between the U.S. and most other countries.

- Frank Krygowski

Canada? Really?
Apparently Mr Yamamoto's Royal Navy commission has been kept
a secret. At least from me.

It's not that Yamamoto worked for Canada. It's that Canada is yet
another example of a nation that doesn't invade us.

(Personally, I think it has a lot more to do with the most massive,
advanced and expensive military machine in the world, not the six-
shooters behind blades of grass.)

I'll also note that Yamamoto (& Krushchev, & Mao, & the Kim Jong boys,
etc.) never invaded Canada either.

- Frank Krygowski

On Apr 16, 8:28*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
A Gazelle is a rarity over here -- well, not
in Portland because we have a store that sells them ... he
http://clevercycles.com/* -- our tribute-to-Holland bicycle shop in
PDX.

I see they've got dynohub wheels on sale. You really should at least
check it out.

http://clevercycles.com/store2/index...XCE500%20 36H

- Frank Krygowski

On Apr 16, 7:40 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Apr 16, 8:28 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:

A Gazelle is a rarity over here -- well, not
in Portland because we have a store that sells them ... he
http://clevercycles.com/ -- our tribute-to-Holland bicycle shop in
PDX.

I see they've got dynohub wheels on sale. You really should at least
check it out.

http://clevercycles.com/store2/index...e%20%2F%20Alex...


"should"

On 2013-04-16 21:07:12 +0000, Frank Krygowski said:

On Apr 16, 5:02*pm, AMuzi wrote:

p.s. I have it on very good authority (Ms Swenink and Ms
Prystalski, who are experts) that Nederlands and Poland are
not unusual countries.

I suppose it's good to remember that the USA may be _the_ most unusual
country. That's true in both ways that are good and ways that are
bad.

- Frank Krygowski

Ah, you corrected yourself.
--

Lou

http://www.carolina.com/living-organ....ct?mCat=10476