Carbon fork legs & alum steerer stronger than steel bearings?

The carbon fork thread got me thinking back to something that happened
in my BMX days, and has had me a little confused ever since. On my
BMX race bike, I cased a big double. I was spinning like crazy legs,
so was probably doing about 25MPH. The bike stopped instantly, I
thought I felt my new carbon forks snap clean in half, and I took a
brutal header. After getting myself off the track and watching the
moto finish without me, I brought my bike back to our van. I was sure
the forks were broken. Teammates who saw the crash assumed the same.
I think it was my race team manager who said his $ was on the frame
breaking over the fork. Anyway, we could clearly feel that something
was amiss in the front end, but there was no visible damage. After
looking for the break for a bit, and running the rest of my races on a
teammates bike, we decided to take the fork out to examine it more
carefully, thinking maybe the steerer had snapped inside the head
tube. When we opened it up we found broken headset bearings (non-
sealed style)! The fork and steerer were still completely intact.
Had I not been so dizzy and sure my bike was broken, I probably could
have finished the moto, even if DFL, to avoid the DNF. Anyway, new
bearings in the head set and all was well again. I rode that bike
daily for the next year or so, raced it on weekends and jumped it
pretty much every day. My race team manager lived about a mile from
my high school, and had a track in his back yard, so our daily riding
was pretty harsh. After that crash I stopped babying it and treating
it like lightweight race equipment and started thrashing it like I
would a dirt jumping fork. To this day I've got the fork, although
the rest of the bike is long gone.

How could a steel bearing break before the carbon legs or alum
steerer? Bad bearing from the factory? Bearing already about to go
from previous abuse? Any ideas at all? I mean, unless someone snuck
some phil wood grease in there when I wasn't looking, which would
obviously explain it, I can't think of a single reason that a solid
bearing would have been the first thing to fail. What's your theory?

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:57:31 -0800, wrote:

The carbon fork thread got me thinking back to something that happened
in my BMX days, and has had me a little confused ever since. On my BMX
race bike, I cased a big double. I was spinning like crazy legs, so was
probably doing about 25MPH. The bike stopped instantly, I thought I
felt my new carbon forks snap clean in half, and I took a brutal header.
After getting myself off the track and watching the moto finish without
me, I brought my bike back to our van. I was sure the forks were
broken. Teammates who saw the crash assumed the same. I think it was my
race team manager who said his $ was on the frame breaking over the
fork. Anyway, we could clearly feel that something was amiss in the
front end, but there was no visible damage. After looking for the break
for a bit, and running the rest of my races on a teammates bike, we
decided to take the fork out to examine it more carefully, thinking
maybe the steerer had snapped inside the head tube. When we opened it
up we found broken headset bearings (non- sealed style)! The fork and
steerer were still completely intact. Had I not been so dizzy and sure
my bike was broken, I probably could have finished the moto, even if
DFL, to avoid the DNF. Anyway, new bearings in the head set and all was
well again. I rode that bike daily for the next year or so, raced it on
weekends and jumped it pretty much every day. My race team manager
lived about a mile from my high school, and had a track in his back
yard, so our daily riding was pretty harsh. After that crash I stopped
babying it and treating it like lightweight race equipment and started
thrashing it like I would a dirt jumping fork. To this day I've got the
fork, although the rest of the bike is long gone.

heretic. this is r.b.t. you're supposed to say things like "i just don't
trust that new fangled carbon stuff" and "plastic forks break".



How could a steel bearing break before the carbon legs or alum steerer?
Bad bearing from the factory? Bearing already about to go from previous
abuse? Any ideas at all? I mean, unless someone snuck some phil wood
grease in there when I wasn't looking, which would obviously explain it,
I can't think of a single reason that a solid bearing would have been
the first thing to fail. What's your theory?

combo of just a crap bearing and a tight interference fit? who knows dude
- you need to cough up the broken pieces to get an opinion worth shinola.

On Nov 23, 10:19*pm, jim beam wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:57:31 -0800, wrote:
The carbon fork thread got me thinking back to something that happened
in my BMX days, and has had me a little confused ever since. *On my BMX
race bike, I cased a big double. *I was spinning like crazy legs, so was
probably doing about 25MPH. *The bike stopped instantly, I thought I
felt my new carbon forks snap clean in half, and I took a brutal header..
*After getting myself off the track and watching the moto finish without
me, I brought my bike back to our van. *I was sure the forks were
broken. *Teammates who saw the crash assumed the same. I think it was my
race team manager who said his $ was on the frame breaking over the
fork. *Anyway, we could clearly feel that something was amiss in the
front end, but there was no visible damage. *After looking for the break
for a bit, and running the rest of my races on a teammates bike, we
decided to take the fork out to examine it more carefully, thinking
maybe the steerer had snapped inside the head tube. *When we opened it
up we found broken headset bearings (non- sealed style)! *The fork and
steerer were still completely intact. Had I not been so dizzy and sure
my bike was broken, I probably could have finished the moto, even if
DFL, to avoid the DNF. *Anyway, new bearings in the head set and all was
well again. *I rode that bike daily for the next year or so, raced it on
weekends and jumped it pretty much every day. *My race team manager
lived about a mile from my high school, and had a track in his back
yard, so our daily riding was pretty harsh. *After that crash I stopped
babying it and treating it like lightweight race equipment and started
thrashing it like I would a dirt jumping fork. *To this day I've got the
fork, although the rest of the bike is long gone.

heretic. *this is r.b.t. *you're supposed to say things like "i just don't
trust that new fangled carbon stuff" and "plastic forks break".



How could a steel bearing break before the carbon legs or alum steerer?
Bad bearing from the factory? *Bearing already about to go from previous
abuse? *Any ideas at all? *I mean, unless someone snuck some phil wood
grease in there when I wasn't looking, which would obviously explain it,
I can't think of a single reason that a solid bearing would have been
the first thing to fail. *What's your theory?

combo of just a crap bearing and a tight interference fit? *who knows dude
- you need to cough up the broken pieces to get an opinion worth shinola.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Unfortunately the broken piece is long gone - probably in the trash
can at that BMX track 10+ years ago. Just curious for other theories.

On Nov 24, 9:34*am, " wrote:
On Nov 23, 10:19*pm, jim beam wrote:





On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:57:31 -0800, wrote:
The carbon fork thread got me thinking back to something that happened
in my BMX days, and has had me a little confused ever since. *On my BMX
race bike, I cased a big double. *I was spinning like crazy legs, so was
probably doing about 25MPH. *The bike stopped instantly, I thought I
felt my new carbon forks snap clean in half, and I took a brutal header.
*After getting myself off the track and watching the moto finish without
me, I brought my bike back to our van. *I was sure the forks were
broken. *Teammates who saw the crash assumed the same. I think it was my
race team manager who said his $ was on the frame breaking over the
fork. *Anyway, we could clearly feel that something was amiss in the
front end, but there was no visible damage. *After looking for the break
for a bit, and running the rest of my races on a teammates bike, we
decided to take the fork out to examine it more carefully, thinking
maybe the steerer had snapped inside the head tube. *When we opened it
up we found broken headset bearings (non- sealed style)! *The fork and
steerer were still completely intact. Had I not been so dizzy and sure
my bike was broken, I probably could have finished the moto, even if
DFL, to avoid the DNF. *Anyway, new bearings in the head set and all was
well again. *I rode that bike daily for the next year or so, raced it on
weekends and jumped it pretty much every day. *My race team manager
lived about a mile from my high school, and had a track in his back
yard, so our daily riding was pretty harsh. *After that crash I stopped
babying it and treating it like lightweight race equipment and started
thrashing it like I would a dirt jumping fork. *To this day I've got the
fork, although the rest of the bike is long gone.

heretic. *this is r.b.t. *you're supposed to say things like "i just don't
trust that new fangled carbon stuff" and "plastic forks break".

How could a steel bearing break before the carbon legs or alum steerer?
Bad bearing from the factory? *Bearing already about to go from previous
abuse? *Any ideas at all? *I mean, unless someone snuck some phil wood
grease in there when I wasn't looking, which would obviously explain it,
I can't think of a single reason that a solid bearing would have been
the first thing to fail. *What's your theory?

combo of just a crap bearing and a tight interference fit? *who knows dude
- you need to cough up the broken pieces to get an opinion worth shinola.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Unfortunately the broken piece is long gone - probably in the trash
can at that BMX track 10+ years ago. *Just curious for other theories.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

the headset was probabally perfectly adjusted between the cup and the
race, but there was space at either side for the bearing which was
probabally well ground and had a work-hardened outer shell, that
allowed the bearing to explode as the path of least resistance.

On Nov 23, 9:57 pm, " wrote:
[...] I mean, unless someone snuck
some phil wood grease in there when I wasn't looking, which would
obviously explain it, I can't think of a single reason that a solid
bearing would have been the first thing to fail. What's your theory?

Honest question, no trolling, I gotta know: how would the application
of a major well-liked brand of grease to steel bearings increase their
chance of failure?

Chip C
Toronto

On Nov 24, 11:41*am, Chip C wrote:
On Nov 23, 9:57 pm, " wrote:

[...] *I mean, unless someone snuck
some phil wood grease in there when I wasn't looking, which would
obviously explain it, I can't think of a single reason that a solid
bearing would have been the first thing to fail. *What's your theory?

Honest question, no trolling, I gotta know: how would the application
of a major well-liked brand of grease to steel bearings increase their
chance of failure?

Chip C
Toronto

ik think it was a snide joke resulting from some of the protracted
flame wars here and elsewhere about how gwadaffull bad phil wood
grease really is.

On Nov 24, 12:10*pm, wrote:
On Nov 24, 11:41*am, Chip C wrote:

On Nov 23, 9:57 pm, " wrote:

[...] *I mean, unless someone snuck
some phil wood grease in there when I wasn't looking, which would
obviously explain it, I can't think of a single reason that a solid
bearing would have been the first thing to fail. *What's your theory?

Honest question, no trolling, I gotta know: how would the application
of a major well-liked brand of grease to steel bearings increase their
chance of failure?

Chip C
Toronto

ik think it was a snide joke resulting from some of the protracted
flame wars here and elsewhere about how gwadaffull bad phil wood
grease really is.

bingo. just throwing a little levity in there.

On Nov 24, 10:25*am, wrote:
On Nov 24, 9:34*am, " wrote:





On Nov 23, 10:19*pm, jim beam wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:57:31 -0800, wrote:
The carbon fork thread got me thinking back to something that happened
in my BMX days, and has had me a little confused ever since. *On my BMX
race bike, I cased a big double. *I was spinning like crazy legs, so was
probably doing about 25MPH. *The bike stopped instantly, I thought I
felt my new carbon forks snap clean in half, and I took a brutal header.
*After getting myself off the track and watching the moto finish without
me, I brought my bike back to our van. *I was sure the forks were
broken. *Teammates who saw the crash assumed the same. I think it was my
race team manager who said his $ was on the frame breaking over the
fork. *Anyway, we could clearly feel that something was amiss in the
front end, but there was no visible damage. *After looking for the break
for a bit, and running the rest of my races on a teammates bike, we
decided to take the fork out to examine it more carefully, thinking
maybe the steerer had snapped inside the head tube. *When we opened it
up we found broken headset bearings (non- sealed style)! *The fork and
steerer were still completely intact. Had I not been so dizzy and sure
my bike was broken, I probably could have finished the moto, even if
DFL, to avoid the DNF. *Anyway, new bearings in the head set and all was
well again. *I rode that bike daily for the next year or so, raced it on
weekends and jumped it pretty much every day. *My race team manager
lived about a mile from my high school, and had a track in his back
yard, so our daily riding was pretty harsh. *After that crash I stopped
babying it and treating it like lightweight race equipment and started
thrashing it like I would a dirt jumping fork. *To this day I've got the
fork, although the rest of the bike is long gone.

heretic. *this is r.b.t. *you're supposed to say things like "i just don't
trust that new fangled carbon stuff" and "plastic forks break".

How could a steel bearing break before the carbon legs or alum steerer?
Bad bearing from the factory? *Bearing already about to go from previous
abuse? *Any ideas at all? *I mean, unless someone snuck some phil wood
grease in there when I wasn't looking, which would obviously explain it,
I can't think of a single reason that a solid bearing would have been
the first thing to fail. *What's your theory?

combo of just a crap bearing and a tight interference fit? *who knows dude
- you need to cough up the broken pieces to get an opinion worth shinola.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Unfortunately the broken piece is long gone - probably in the trash
can at that BMX track 10+ years ago. *Just curious for other theories..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

the headset was probabally perfectly adjusted between the cup and the
race, but there was space at either side for the bearing which was
probabally well ground and had a work-hardened outer shell, that
allowed the bearing to explode as the path of least resistance.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That makes quite a bit of sense. I wouldn't be the least bit
surprised to learn you are 100% right. Wouldn't that space still
exist w/ new bearings using the same fork and headset cups though? It
took another year of brutal abuse after I replaced the bearings. Come
to think of it, I probably didn't even replace them all. Or, I may
have upgraded the HS & if I did I would have replcaed the cups as
well. Shame I can't remember. One thing I do know for sure, that
fork was some damn hard "plastic" I still have it. I remember
when I bought it thinking it'd last a week with the way I beat my
bikes. Got myself some in-the-dirt education on CF with that thing.
It almost ended up back in use on a buddys BMX race bike a year or two
ago but a mortgage, wife and children ended up interfering with the
build of that bike.

On Nov 24, 1:06*pm, " wrote:
On Nov 24, 10:25*am, wrote:





On Nov 24, 9:34*am, " wrote:

On Nov 23, 10:19*pm, jim beam wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:57:31 -0800, wrote:
The carbon fork thread got me thinking back to something that happened
in my BMX days, and has had me a little confused ever since. *On my BMX
race bike, I cased a big double. *I was spinning like crazy legs, so was
probably doing about 25MPH. *The bike stopped instantly, I thought I
felt my new carbon forks snap clean in half, and I took a brutal header.
*After getting myself off the track and watching the moto finish without
me, I brought my bike back to our van. *I was sure the forks were
broken. *Teammates who saw the crash assumed the same. I think it was my
race team manager who said his $ was on the frame breaking over the
fork. *Anyway, we could clearly feel that something was amiss in the
front end, but there was no visible damage. *After looking for the break
for a bit, and running the rest of my races on a teammates bike, we
decided to take the fork out to examine it more carefully, thinking
maybe the steerer had snapped inside the head tube. *When we opened it
up we found broken headset bearings (non- sealed style)! *The fork and
steerer were still completely intact. Had I not been so dizzy and sure
my bike was broken, I probably could have finished the moto, even if
DFL, to avoid the DNF. *Anyway, new bearings in the head set and all was
well again. *I rode that bike daily for the next year or so, raced it on
weekends and jumped it pretty much every day. *My race team manager
lived about a mile from my high school, and had a track in his back
yard, so our daily riding was pretty harsh. *After that crash I stopped
babying it and treating it like lightweight race equipment and started
thrashing it like I would a dirt jumping fork. *To this day I've got the
fork, although the rest of the bike is long gone.

heretic. *this is r.b.t. *you're supposed to say things like "i just don't
trust that new fangled carbon stuff" and "plastic forks break".

How could a steel bearing break before the carbon legs or alum steerer?
Bad bearing from the factory? *Bearing already about to go from previous
abuse? *Any ideas at all? *I mean, unless someone snuck some phil wood
grease in there when I wasn't looking, which would obviously explain it,
I can't think of a single reason that a solid bearing would have been
the first thing to fail. *What's your theory?

combo of just a crap bearing and a tight interference fit? *who knows dude
- you need to cough up the broken pieces to get an opinion worth shinola.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Unfortunately the broken piece is long gone - probably in the trash
can at that BMX track 10+ years ago. *Just curious for other theories.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

the headset was probabally perfectly adjusted between the cup and the
race, but there was space at either side for the bearing which was
probabally well ground and had a work-hardened outer shell, that
allowed the bearing to explode as the path of least resistance.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That makes quite a bit of sense. *I wouldn't be the least bit
surprised to learn you are 100% right. *Wouldn't that space still
exist w/ new bearings using the same fork and headset cups though? *It
took another year of brutal abuse after I replaced the bearings. *Come
to think of it, I probably didn't even replace them all. *Or, I may
have upgraded the HS & if I did I would have replcaed the cups as
well. *Shame I can't remember. *One thing I do know for sure, that
fork was some damn hard "plastic" *I still have it. *I remember
when I bought it thinking it'd last a week with the way I beat my
bikes. *Got myself some in-the-dirt education on CF with that thing.
It almost ended up back in use on a buddys BMX race bike a year or two
ago but a mortgage, wife and children ended up interfering with the
build of that bike.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

yes the space would still exist- doesn't mean that every bb in it
would be subject to exploding like it's predecessor, it's a fluke
thing because if the bb didn't then something else would release the
energy. remember, the energy always goes somewhere...this for when you
crash into something and your wheel or whatever isn't toast, something
along the line did. Once I got doored on a cold day, I spun my front
wheel and was surprised to see it wasn't bent, I went on 5 minutes
later locking up I found my top tube got crumpled; lesson learned.

In article
,
wrote:

On Nov 24, 11:41*am, Chip C wrote:
On Nov 23, 9:57 pm, " wrote:

[...] *I mean, unless someone snuck
some phil wood grease in there when I wasn't looking, which would
obviously explain it, I can't think of a single reason that a solid
bearing would have been the first thing to fail. *What's your theory?

Honest question, no trolling, I gotta know: how would the application
of a major well-liked brand of grease to steel bearings increase their
chance of failure?

Chip C
Toronto

ik think it was a snide joke resulting from some of the protracted
flame wars here and elsewhere about how gwadaffull bad phil wood
grease really is.

Nobody complains that Phil Wood grease is bad. All the
wailing is over the price of Phil Wood grease, compared
to buying the same grease in 55 gallon drums.

--
Michael Press