you people are gay

TritonRider wrote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or
of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
the Government for a redress of grievances.

Does not say freedom from religion. It does say will not prohibit free exercise
of religion.
You are violently opposed to people's freedom to practice their religion.

I must have missed a post here as I didn't see where John expressed such
an opinion, violently or otherwise.

Being opposed to having others religious views foisted upon you differs
from being 'opposed to people's freedom to practice their religion'. It
does not matter whether these others are moslems trying to force women to
cover their faces or christian fundamentalists (or catholics) trying to
impose their views on for example abortion on everyone else.

From: Donald Munro

I must have missed a post here as I didn't see where John expressed such
an opinion, violently or otherwise.

The opinion that he has expressed was that the Govt. needs ban all religion
from of all facets of govt. and public life.
This in my mind is enforced atheism. My take is that the govt. needs to be
totally neutral to all religions. It's a tough question to deal with though as
it's so emotional and complex.
I do think that we are going to have to fight to keep the far right from
making a power grab and forcing their agenda onto the country now.

Being opposed to having others religious views foisted upon you differs
from being 'opposed to people's freedom to practice their religion'. It
does not matter whether these others are moslems trying to force women to
cover their faces or christian fundamentalists (or catholics) trying to
impose their views on for example abortion on everyone else.


There we agree, but the Govt also has to stop attempting to strip religion from
all forms of public life.
Banning Halloween, banning discussion of religious holidays in schools
etc...is really losing a chance to include and educate everyone about each
other's beliefs. With things as polarized as they are today discussion and
understanding are more critical than ever IMO.
Bill C

From: Donald Munro

I must have missed a post here as I didn't see where John expressed such
an opinion, violently or otherwise.

The opinion that he has expressed was that the Govt. needs ban all religion
from of all facets of govt. and public life.
This in my mind is enforced atheism. My take is that the govt. needs to be
totally neutral to all religions. It's a tough question to deal with though as
it's so emotional and complex.
I do think that we are going to have to fight to keep the far right from
making a power grab and forcing their agenda onto the country now.

Being opposed to having others religious views foisted upon you differs
from being 'opposed to people's freedom to practice their religion'. It
does not matter whether these others are moslems trying to force women to
cover their faces or christian fundamentalists (or catholics) trying to
impose their views on for example abortion on everyone else.


There we agree, but the Govt also has to stop attempting to strip religion from
all forms of public life.
Banning Halloween, banning discussion of religious holidays in schools
etc...is really losing a chance to include and educate everyone about each
other's beliefs. With things as polarized as they are today discussion and
understanding are more critical than ever IMO.
Bill C

(TritonRider) wrote in
:

I should amend it to say they hate America as it has been for over 200
years.

And how, exactly, has it been for over two hundred years? For 86 of those
years, it was legal to own slaves. Women didn't have the right to vote for
144 of those years. Three of those years american citizins of japanese
heritage were interned. That's a lot of **** to hate. Of course, there has
been a whole bunch of good stuff too....and that--along with the Idea of
the United States--is what I love.

My point is that to assert that the United States of America has been any
readily definable thing for over 200 years is complete and utter bull****.
What the United States is is in constant flux. And you know what? That's a
good thing.

They would be happy with it if it was remade in the image they want.

And that's a bad thing? I thought that's what democracy was all about. As
long as it doesn't contradict the basic ground rules laid out in the
Constitution, the people are free to "remake" this country in whatever
image they damn well please. Indeed, the founders even provided us with a
method to change the rules, if we wish.

The United States are, as it's founders were, in a constant state of
tension between the ideal and the pragmatic. Take the example of
Jefferson. He opposed slavery, while, at the same time, owning slaves. He
knew slavery wrong, and that one day it would be abolished, but not there
and then. He knew something you appear not to....that the United States is
not a thing, but an ideal. It's a target somewhere out there to aim for.
And guess what? Not everyone looking at that target sees the same thing.
And that (though it may not please you) is exactly what the american ideal
is all about.

I don't know if you're assertation that Michael Moore and the left hate
America is born of arrogence, ignorence, or maybe both. Dissent, and even
hatered are necessary parts of the democratic process.

Now shut the **** up and go do something useful like go ride your bike.

Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving.

(TritonRider) wrote in
:

I should amend it to say they hate America as it has been for over 200
years.

And how, exactly, has it been for over two hundred years? For 86 of those
years, it was legal to own slaves. Women didn't have the right to vote for
144 of those years. Three of those years american citizins of japanese
heritage were interned. That's a lot of **** to hate. Of course, there has
been a whole bunch of good stuff too....and that--along with the Idea of
the United States--is what I love.

My point is that to assert that the United States of America has been any
readily definable thing for over 200 years is complete and utter bull****.
What the United States is is in constant flux. And you know what? That's a
good thing.

They would be happy with it if it was remade in the image they want.

And that's a bad thing? I thought that's what democracy was all about. As
long as it doesn't contradict the basic ground rules laid out in the
Constitution, the people are free to "remake" this country in whatever
image they damn well please. Indeed, the founders even provided us with a
method to change the rules, if we wish.

The United States are, as it's founders were, in a constant state of
tension between the ideal and the pragmatic. Take the example of
Jefferson. He opposed slavery, while, at the same time, owning slaves. He
knew slavery wrong, and that one day it would be abolished, but not there
and then. He knew something you appear not to....that the United States is
not a thing, but an ideal. It's a target somewhere out there to aim for.
And guess what? Not everyone looking at that target sees the same thing.
And that (though it may not please you) is exactly what the american ideal
is all about.

I don't know if you're assertation that Michael Moore and the left hate
America is born of arrogence, ignorence, or maybe both. Dissent, and even
hatered are necessary parts of the democratic process.

Now shut the **** up and go do something useful like go ride your bike.

Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving.

"Tim Mullin" wrote in message
k.net...
(TritonRider) wrote in
:
I don't know if you're assertation that Michael Moore and the left hate
America is born of arrogence, ignorence, or maybe both. Dissent, and even
hatered are necessary parts of the democratic process.

Could it be that Michael Moore is doing what he's doing because he loves his
country and is deeply concerned about what is happening in it??

"Tim Mullin" wrote in message
k.net...
(TritonRider) wrote in
:
I don't know if you're assertation that Michael Moore and the left hate
America is born of arrogence, ignorence, or maybe both. Dissent, and even
hatered are necessary parts of the democratic process.

Could it be that Michael Moore is doing what he's doing because he loves his
country and is deeply concerned about what is happening in it??

TritonRider wrote:

My vision for the ideal "Main Street" Anytown would have a church, a mosque, a
synagogue, an NAACP office, A Klan office with lawful protesters outside, a
planned parenthood office, a decent shelter, a leftwing and rightwing news
outlet, a park where everybody could speak and debate freely without
intimidation...

you mean you "would be happy with it if it was remade in the image [you]
want." ?



h

TritonRider wrote:

My vision for the ideal "Main Street" Anytown would have a church, a mosque, a
synagogue, an NAACP office, A Klan office with lawful protesters outside, a
planned parenthood office, a decent shelter, a leftwing and rightwing news
outlet, a park where everybody could speak and debate freely without
intimidation...

you mean you "would be happy with it if it was remade in the image [you]
want." ?



h

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:


... people doing very well
economically who put their own benefit ahead of broader society.
Another group are anti-gay and/or anti-choice. They're not stupid or
duped -- they're just haters and immoral.

God damn you are stupid.