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#1
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
(WAS: Time to build some new wheels - opinions sought)
The bottom bracket argument isn't much of anything, since bottom brackets only cost around $30 anyway. It's not about merely the BB. So, let's say tomorrow, I bust my XT crank arm. *Right now*, I can probably find an XT Octalink crankarm or crankset to replace it. In three years? In five years? I'll bet that ISIS will still be going strong then. Not only do they have a new crankset standard, but they have been carrying 3 *other* BB types: V2 Octalink, V1 Octalink, and square taper. I'm going to pick up 4 extra Octalink BBs (two for each bike) and when they are done, the cranks will be replaced with some non-Shimano stuff. BTW, did you see the new Saint gruppo, and how the RD is attached? Different standard... Usually you decide what kind of cranks you want and then buy the bottom bracket to match... Yup, I have Octalink XTs on right now - both bikes. They are nice, and were relatively inexpensive for their quality. In three years, how many new Octalink XT cranksets do you think I might be able to buy? by using the new external bearing setup, they save you the trouble of buying a bottom bracket separately. As you say, a $30 BB is not an issue. As I was shopping for hubs the other day, I asked my not-so-LBS about XT ISO disk hubs. One of his catalogs doesn't even have the M756s any more. Hmmmm. How long before they stop production on Octalink BBs? (Thus rendering my expensive XT cranksets useless upon BB failure.) Shimano is doing it's best to make the old gear obsolete, such that if you break one thing some time in the future, you'll be obligated to buy a whole bunch of stuff to replace perfectly fucntional, but now-obsolete, ancillary gear. I very much object to throwing away (giving away, selling for some miniscule price) perfectly usable bike gear. Standard ISO hubs, conventionally-return-sprung RDs, ISIS BB/cranksets, separate brake and shifter controls. I hope bike consumers also see what I see, so that they might choose their poison with open eyes, whether that be poison dished out by the Big S, or some other poison. Jonesy, I think you're looking at this problem from the wrong angle. Technology always advances, leaving older products obsolete. This is true in any industry, and shouldn't be viewed so negatively. If every generation of gear was compatible with the previous, there would be very little improvement. You gave the perfect example of this. You enjoy the benefits Octalink has over standard square taper. If I apply your sweeping judgment, Shimano should have stuck with square taper because it is compatible with cranks that have been made for decades. The splined bottom bracket is a superior technology that is not compatible with anything previously made, but at some point we must let go of our obsolete cranks and accept the new standard. To do so bitterly would be a shame indeed. That being said, I need you to explain further why the advancement of technology upsets you. You state the case that replacement of one part may require you to replace many other parts that are still functional. Again, I submit to you that this is currently a reality and it always has been. (Oh, you want to upgrade your fork? You'll need a threadless headset and side-pull brakes! But my headset and center-pull brakes work fine! Sorry, they aren't compatible.) Obsolete parts can still be found long after they are replaced by newer technology, but they just aren't readily available in your latest mail order catalogs. Just ask some of the retros on this group who still use threaded headsets and thumb shifters. What you're experiencing with Shimano's new lineup isn't new. Every new generation of parts has had some kind of backlash with people who do not want to change over. What happens to these people? Either they find a way to keep fixing their old gear, or they upgrade and realize what they've been missing. And finally, I must say that unless you're really lucky, you will be changing out parts on your bike for new ones long before they become obsolete. You may even find yourself wanting that hot new item for your bike before your old stuff wears out. If you're like me, chances are you'll buy an entirely new bike before anything on it becomes hard to find. John M |
#2
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
Jonesy, I think you're looking at this problem from the wrong angle.
Technology always advances, leaving older products obsolete. This is true in any industry, and shouldn't be viewed so negatively. If every generation of gear was compatible with the previous, there would be very little improvement. Not true. We still have freehubs that are largely compatible with each other, especially with the use of spacers. Maybe this part didn't need better engineering... I dunno. What about Octalink V1? Obviously a big failure. Doesn't follow "Technology always advances, leaving older products obsolete." at all. You gave the perfect example of this. You enjoy the benefits Octalink has over standard square taper. If I apply your sweeping judgment, Shimano should have stuck with square taper because it is compatible with cranks that have been made for decades. The splined bottom bracket is a superior technology that is not compatible with anything previously made, but at some point we must let go of our obsolete cranks and accept the new standard. To do so bitterly would be a shame indeed. It's such a new "technology" that needing to upgrade a whole drivetrain just because a smaller component failed is backwards and wasteful. What you're experiencing with Shimano's new lineup isn't new. Every new generation of parts has had some kind of backlash with people who do not want to change over. What happens to these people? Either they find a way to keep fixing their old gear, or they upgrade and realize what they've been missing. But this is a sudden change of many things... "Standard ISO hubs, conventionally-return-sprung RDs, ISIS BB/cranksets, separate brake and shifter controls." Most of these work fine and are so much cheaper than the new stuff. And finally, I must say that unless you're really lucky, you will be changing out parts on your bike for new ones long before they become obsolete. You may even find yourself wanting that hot new item for your bike before your old stuff wears out. If you're like me, chances are you'll buy an entirely new bike before anything on it becomes hard to find. You would be ****ed if you bent your disc rotor and were subsequently required to replace your wheel. Hmm... a $30 item (Hayes 6" rotor) versus a $330 item (front Shimano centerlock wheel plus a new Shimano rotor)... a 1000% higher cost! (prices estimated from Cambria) I don't see how anybody would be so willing to throw your money out on a proprietary system that nobody else supports at a cost that is significantly higher than the prices of competitors that have products of similar quality. If you enjoy doing that, then have fun wasting your money. I'd rather spend my money on, say, food, or water. Imagine buying a new nice car... Let's say a Nissan Maxima. You spend $30,000 on it. You drive it for a year, and the axle, or some other critical support breaks. You go to your dealer, and you say, "I need a new axle installed." His reply: "I'm sorry sir - that was last year's model. We've made advancements since then, so your only recourse is to buy our new model year Maxima." Sounds pretty ****ty to me. -- Phil, Squid-in-Training |
#3
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
"ZeeExSixAre" wrote in message ...
You would be ****ed if you bent your disc rotor and were subsequently required to replace your wheel. Hmm... a $30 item (Hayes 6" rotor) versus a $330 item (front Shimano centerlock wheel plus a new Shimano rotor)... a 1000% higher cost! (prices estimated from Cambria) I'd call the cost more on the order of: new front hub, new rotor, labor to lace the wheel (in the case you couldn't DIY.) Less than $300, but certainly more than a $20 Avid rotor. I don't see how anybody would be so willing to throw your money out on a proprietary system that nobody else supports at a cost that is significantly higher than the prices of competitors that have products of similar quality. And there is really the issue: similar quality. Is the RaceFace stuff so much inferior to the XT/XTR crankset? Is the difference even measurable, saying nothing of noticeable? If you enjoy doing that, then have fun wasting your money. I'd rather spend my money on, say, food, or water. How about gas to drive to a really cool MTBing vacation? Or a bike for your kid? Etc, etc. Imagine buying a new nice car... Let's say a Nissan Maxima. You spend $30,000 on it. You drive it for a year, and the axle, or some other critical support breaks. You go to your dealer, and you say, "I need a new axle installed." His reply: "I'm sorry sir - that was last year's model. We've made advancements since then, so your only recourse is to buy our new model year Maxima." I think a closer analogy would be, "I'm sorry sir, that part of the drivetrain is obsolete. We will be happy to sell you a new transaxle and related components." Of course, it would set you back $2500 or more, instead of the $200 or so for a broken axle. I like new tech that makes real improvement. Incremental, small, performance-neutral tech that costs a lot of dough and obsoletes my existing, perfectly-functional gear is what bothers me. -- Jonesy |
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
"John Morgan" wrote in message news:5_Mzc.72304$My6.32711@fed1read05... Jonesy, I think you're looking at this problem from the wrong angle. Technology always advances, leaving older products obsolete. This is true in any industry, and shouldn't be viewed so negatively. If every generation of gear was compatible with the previous, there would be very little improvement. The new Shimano **** is lightyears ahead of the old stuff. To poopoo it simply because it's new is to be a retrogrouch lemming. |
#5
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
"p e t e f a g e r l i n" wrote in message .com...
"John Morgan" wrote in message news:5_Mzc.72304$My6.32711@fed1read05... Jonesy, I think you're looking at this problem from the wrong angle. Technology always advances, leaving older products obsolete. This is true in any industry, and shouldn't be viewed so negatively. If every generation of gear was compatible with the previous, there would be very little improvement. The new Shimano **** is lightyears ahead of the old stuff. Your opinion, not necessarily shared by everyone. To poopoo it simply because it's new is to be a retrogrouch lemming. Good thing nobody is doing that. -- Jonesy |
#6
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
Jonesy says:
To poopoo it simply because it's new is to be a retrogrouch lemming. Good thing nobody is doing that. Oh, what the heck - someone has to do it: I hereby poopoo the new ****mano stuff. Simply because it IS new ;-) Steve "Luddite" |
#7
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
"Jonesy" wrote in message m... "p e t e f a g e r l i n" wrote in message .com... "John Morgan" wrote in message news:5_Mzc.72304$My6.32711@fed1read05... Jonesy, I think you're looking at this problem from the wrong angle. Technology always advances, leaving older products obsolete. This is true in any industry, and shouldn't be viewed so negatively. If every generation of gear was compatible with the previous, there would be very little improvement. The new Shimano **** is lightyears ahead of the old stuff. Your opinion, not necessarily shared by everyone. Of course it is. Along that same line, the sky is blue. Let me get this straight, you dislike the new Shimano stuff enough to whine about it, yet you haven't tried it? Please correct me if you have indeed tried the latest XTR nad/or Saint cranks. If you have tried them and think they aren't superior (ease of install, rigidity, durability, weight, etc.) to the older Shimano stuff, or Raceface, etc., then we must have VERY different riding experiences. To poopoo it simply because it's new is to be a retrogrouch lemming. Good thing nobody is doing that. Mirror, meet Jonesy. Jonesy, meet Mr. Mirror. "Incremental, small, performance-neutral tech that costs a lot of dough and obsoletes my existing, perfectly-functional gear is what bothers me." |
#8
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
"p e t e f a g e r l i n" wrote in message .com...
"Jonesy" wrote in message m... "p e t e f a g e r l i n" wrote in message .com... "John Morgan" wrote in message news:5_Mzc.72304$My6.32711@fed1read05... Jonesy, I think you're looking at this problem from the wrong angle. Technology always advances, leaving older products obsolete. This is true in any industry, and shouldn't be viewed so negatively. If every generation of gear was compatible with the previous, there would be very little improvement. The new Shimano **** is lightyears ahead of the old stuff. Your opinion, not necessarily shared by everyone. Of course it is. Along that same line, the sky is blue. Let me get this straight, you dislike the new Shimano stuff enough to whine about it, yet you haven't tried it? Go back and read it again. You obviously are having reading comprehension difficulties. Please correct me if you have indeed tried the latest XTR nad/or Saint cranks. I have two functional nads - I do not need to replace them with the lighter, more expensive XTR nads, which have compatibility issues with the previous generation of Shimano nads. Seriously, if I have perfectly functional XT gear, why do I need to go out and buy XTR to try it out? If you supply the *measured* difference in torsional rigidity between '03 XT and '03/04 XTR, then maybe we have a place to start in a discussion over "better." (Hint: read the post before you go off and make all kinds of assumptions.) If you have tried them and think they aren't superior (ease of install, rigidity, durability, weight, etc.) *How* superior? Enough to throw away $150 of perfectly useable gear? Send me a free set so I can try them out. That way I won't have to spend $400 (or whatever XTR goes for now) to see "for myself." to the older Shimano stuff, or Raceface, etc., then we must have VERY different riding experiences. Again, how superior? I will give you "ease of installation." But that's not worth $400. Maybe it is to you, but not to me. Weight? the weight difference from carrying a couple of Powerbars? Give me a break. To poopoo it simply because it's new is to be a retrogrouch lemming. Good thing nobody is doing that. Mirror, meet Jonesy. Jonesy, meet Mr. Mirror. "Incremental, small, performance-neutral tech that costs a lot of dough and obsoletes my existing, perfectly-functional gear is what bothers me." You seem to be quoting something that has nothing to do with your sweeping generalization, and everything to do with your mistaken assumptions. Try again. -- Jonesy "Kung Fu master my ass." |
#9
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
"Jonesy" wrote in message om... Seriously, if I have perfectly functional XT gear, why do I need to go out and buy XTR to try it out? If you supply the *measured* difference in torsional rigidity between '03 XT and '03/04 XTR, then maybe we have a place to start in a discussion over "better." (Hint: read the post before you go off and make all kinds of assumptions.) Ah, so you haven't tried the new stuff yet you continue to whine about planned obsolescence. Perfect. As far as supplying measured rigidity, LOL. Go play your games in RBT where you *might* impress some newbies. The fact is that the new XTR/Saint stuff is very good, and noticably better than the older stuff, or Raceface. So sorry. If you have tried them and think they aren't superior (ease of install, rigidity, durability, weight, etc.) *How* superior? Enough to throw away $150 of perfectly useable gear? Send me a free set so I can try them out. That way I won't have to spend $400 (or whatever XTR goes for now) to see "for myself." Thanks for admitting once again that you have no bassis for comparision. It really just comes down to you whining for the sake of hearing yourself whine, eh? p.s. I never suggested that you throw away usable gear. It was a way to expose the fact that your naive rant was just that, naive. to the older Shimano stuff, or Raceface, etc., then we must have VERY different riding experiences. Again, how superior? I will give you "ease of installation." But that's not worth $400. Maybe it is to you, but not to me. Weight? the weight difference from carrying a couple of Powerbars? Give me a break. Ease of installation, stiffness, ease of maintenance, weight, etc. If you have a problem with the cost of the new stuff, perhaps you should whine about that rather than a vast conspiracy by Shimano to inflict planned obsolescence upon Spider. To poopoo it simply because it's new is to be a retrogrouch lemming. Good thing nobody is doing that. Mirror, meet Jonesy. Jonesy, meet Mr. Mirror. "Incremental, small, performance-neutral tech that costs a lot of dough and obsoletes my existing, perfectly-functional gear is what bothers me." You seem to be quoting something that has nothing to do with your sweeping generalization, and everything to do with your mistaken assumptions. Let me help Spider: How has the new XTR stuff made your existing gear obsolete? Are parts not available? Are replacements not available? The fact is that you're just the latest in a long line of whiners (starting at least with the folks who freaked when 7 speed was introduced) who can't accept change, even when the products are superior(I know, I know, you have no experience with the new stuff so you can't possibly know how its changed, but that won't stop you from make spurious arguments about big bad Shimano). |
#10
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
John Morgan wrote:
And finally, I must say that unless you're really lucky, you will be changing out parts on your bike for new ones long before they become obsolete. You may even find yourself wanting that hot new item for your bike before your old stuff wears out. If you're like me, chances are you'll buy an entirely new bike before anything on it becomes hard to find. John M And speaking of new technologies http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=30039 I can't believe that company actually made a good looking bike. The future looks very promising. -- Slacker |
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