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#21
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
"Jonesy" wrote in message om... "p e t e f a g e r l i n" wrote in message .com... "Jonesy" wrote in message m... Why not go for the better value/dollar of an older square taper model for $60? There was no such thing as a new XT 180mm crankset in square taper. But I would not have had any problem buying one if I could have found one. But there are a number of other manufacturers that make those cranks... Really? News to me. Tell me, Pete, who - besides Shimano - makes XT stuff? How...pedantic. Not surprising though. Please focus on this bit right here-------"180mm crankset in square taper" If you think you need Shimano instead of other equally good brands, perhaps you're a blind brand loyalist or something similar. But mostly, I went with it because I had no idea square-taper XT existed anywhere. I would have bought that, if I could have. That is truly odd. You actually limited yourself to Shimano cranks rather than getting a square taper crank from one of the many companies that offer them? Why? Read what I have written on the subject. You'll find the clue you lack. I'm not interested in reading all of your posts to figure out why you would limit yourself to Shimano when then are many other manufacturers that make perfectly compatible cranks. Sorry. |
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#22
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
"Jonesy" wrote in message om... "p e t e f a g e r l i n" wrote in message .com... "Jonesy" wrote in message om... Seriously, if I have perfectly functional XT gear, why do I need to go out and buy XTR to try it out? If you supply the *measured* difference in torsional rigidity between '03 XT and '03/04 XTR, then maybe we have a place to start in a discussion over "better." (Hint: read the post before you go off and make all kinds of assumptions.) Ah, so you haven't tried the new stuff yet you continue to whine about planned obsolescence. Who said I hadn't tried it? "Send me a free set so I can try them out. That way I won't have to spend $400 (or whatever XTR goes for now) to see "for myself." Maybe you forgot this part? You're really losing it this time. It is quite spectacular though. Perfect. Ahh, assumptions... As far as supplying measured rigidity, LOL. So, I'm supposed to just believe some marketing hype spouted off in USENET? ROTFLMAO. Real world experience from people who have tried both cranks is now "marketing hype"? You're too much. Get real. All kinds of myths about materials exist - and claims made by someone who may or may not have any idea of what he's talking about don't prove anything. Ah, more RBT geekitude. Awesome! The fact is that the new XTR/Saint stuff is very good, and noticably better than the older stuff, or Raceface. According to whom? You? LOL - "I bought it, so it must be good." Uh...yeah right Spider. I don't have my self-worth wrapped up in what kind of cranks I ride. It's quite simple. They are better. They were better before I owned them and they're also better now. I've bought plenty of crap and have no problems identifying those products as such. In this case, the new XTR stuff is simply superior. You're projection is quite telling though... If you have tried them and think they aren't superior (ease of install, rigidity, durability, weight, etc.) *How* superior? Enough to throw away $150 of perfectly useable gear? Send me a free set so I can try them out. That way I won't have to spend $400 (or whatever XTR goes for now) to see "for myself." Thanks for admitting once again that you have no bassis for comparision. Oh, I do have a bassis [sic]. Your inferrences based on unfounded assumptions aside, of course. Hmmm...more fantasies, eh? It really just comes down to you whining for the sake of hearing yourself whine, eh? And your counter-whine is what, exactly? Not a counter whine. Just an attempt at educating someone who is apparently hopelessly clueless. I try. p.s. I never suggested that you throw away usable gear. Bull****. What else am I going to do with it? Start some metal-sculpture project? LOL. You're apparently really wrapped up this time Spider. Here's a bit of Spiderism: Please quote where I suggested that you throw away usable gear. to the older Shimano stuff, or Raceface, etc., then we must have VERY different riding experiences. Again, how superior? I will give you "ease of installation." But that's not worth $400. Maybe it is to you, but not to me. Weight? the weight difference from carrying a couple of Powerbars? Give me a break. Ease of installation That, and weight - already given. I'll drag two extra Powerbars up the hill for $400, thanks. Installation? I'm not sure how much faster it is than installing a cartridge BB and regular crank arms, but since I'm not installing 100 of them a day, I don't think that's much of an issue. stiffness An unsubstantiated claim. LOL again at the RBT geekitude. ease of maintenance How much simpler can it be - pull out old, used cart. BB, throw in a new one. Is it worth $250 over the limited lifetime of the product? Simply replacing the outboard bearings is easier with the new setup. Again, you obviously don't know jack about the new system. That and your silly whine about planned obsolescence makes for entertaining reading. Let me help Spider: No, let *me* help *you*: That'll be the day Fred. "To poopoo it simply because it's new is to be a retrogrouch lemming." I'm not poopooing the stuff simply because it's new. Re-read my comments for the clue you need. Oh, and you quoted out of context: "I like new tech that makes real improvement. Incremental, small, performance-neutral tech that costs a lot of dough and obsoletes my existing, perfectly-functional gear is what bothers me." See that first sentence? It's not a throw-away. Thanks for playing. And that just about sums it up...you lack the experience with the new stuff that would allow you to understand that it's anything but incremental, small, performance-neutral tech. It also doesn't obsolete your existing equipment. So what do you have left to whine about? |
#23
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
Stephen Baker wrote:
John Morgan says: Bike tires can cost $40 a piece... same as the 50,000 mile guaranteed tires on my car. Ahem! Where do you buy your tyres. Here in RI I can't find a decent tyre for under about $80 (just "around town" tyres, nuttin' special) I once (and once only) put cheapo tyres on the family car - result was a hydroplane (with 3 cars helping crunch the wagon), concussed wife with a pelvis broken in 3 places, and 2 well-bruised kids (other two were safely strapped in their kiddie seats and sound asleep.) There's cheap, and then there's inexpensive... Heheh, I have 14" tires on my economy sedan. I buy my tires at Discount Tire Co. They work fine, as there is no weather but hot and dry here. John M |
#24
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
John Morgan wrote:
| Stephen Baker wrote: | || John Morgan says: || ||| Bike tires can cost $40 a piece... same as the ||| 50,000 mile guaranteed tires on my car. || || Ahem! Where do you buy your tyres. Here in RI I can't find a || decent tyre for under about $80 (just "around town" tyres, nuttin' || special) || I once (and once only) put cheapo tyres on the family car - result || was a hydroplane (with 3 cars helping crunch the wagon), concussed || wife with a pelvis broken in 3 places, and 2 well-bruised kids || (other two were safely strapped in their kiddie seats and sound || asleep.) || || There's cheap, and then there's inexpensive... | | Heheh, I have 14" tires on my economy sedan. I buy my tires at | Discount Tire Co. They work fine, as there is no weather but hot and | dry here. | | John M I've got 14" Triumphs on my car. Stick to the pavement like glue. --- __o _`\(,_ Cycling is life, (_)/ (_) all the rest, just details. The Nelson Paradigm =^o.o^= http://intergalax.com http://intbike.com _______ Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.692 / Virus Database: 453 - Release Date: 5/28/2004 |
#25
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
lots o' snipage throughout, doesn't matter, nobody will read it anyways
If every generation of gear was compatible with the previous, there would be very little improvement. Like wheels? Or the parallelogram RD? Or chain-drive? Those are all good technologies, but as soon as the opportunity to improve them or replace them comes along, you can be damn sure it's going to happen. The bicycle wheel hasn't changed much in 100 years. This according to The Man, Jobst Brandt. Paralellogram derailleurs have been around for decades. Chain drive is the most efficient of all the tried set-ups. Has been for over a century. Now, maybe in twenty or so years, some new, whizzy materials will render some of those things obsolete, and I'll be on board for real improvement - like I said before, I'm totally on-board with stuff that makes a real difference. Of course, I'm sure anyone that could afford it would be glad to accept giant leaps in technology that obviously improve performance. Unfortunately, improvements usually come in small, incremental, performance neutral steps. Uhhh, no. I bought an XT crankset because of value/dollar. $120 for the crankset, $20 for the BB - hard to beat. It just happened to be Octalink-only. I do not plan on being a gear whore and buying the latest and greatest crankset in two years time. I want this thing to last a while. Why not go for the better value/dollar of an older square taper model for $60? There was no such thing as a new XT 180mm crankset in square taper. But I would not have had any problem buying one if I could have found one. XT? I was suggesting you go with square taper LX or Deore level. I mean, we're talking value and Deore is great for that. You can punish Deore components just as long as anything else, then replace them for half the cost when they wear out. 3.) I would say it's been the standard for a while, failed no... because it's better than what we had before it existed. If the "standard" fades away after only a few years, then it wasn't a very good standard. I have a more progressive attitude about this. The length of time a standard is in place isn't as important as getting someplace better with a newer standard. You said yourself it's about the quality of the ride... and you probably rarely think about your gripe with Shimano while you're cruising along. Nothing wrong with being satisfied by the gear you currently have, but where do you draw the line between being satisfied and wanting to upgrade to newer and better stuff? Is it at the $60 price point? $120? $200? Really, the whole issue boils down to cost. If you could get the new XTR stuff for less dough, you wouldn't have any complaint, would you? What does Dual Control do for me? The new crank and BB style? Centerlock hubs and disks? Low-normal vs. high-normal? 1.5 headtube diameter? Try them out and answer your own questions. LOL. Nice tactic. No, I want *you* to tell me why you think they are so great that I should change my bike over to them. What makes them worth the money? Why should I spend so much, if the benefits aren't easily apparent? Alright, I will meet you half-way. I've owned a splined XT setup and I've owned a new XTR setup. I've owned dual-control, rapid fire, and grip shift setups. Honestly, they all work great. I have no complaints about any of them. The new XTR runs the smoothest and "feels" higher quality than anything I've tried. I'm a lightweight, so I couldn't tell you if XTR is any stiffer than what you use (I never noticed any flex in my XT cranks). The larger outboard bearings are superior in feel, that's for sure. I've heard they will last longer, having a larger surface area... but I'm like you, I am usually fairly easy on my gear. The new generation gear shifts smoother, pedals smoother, brakes smoother, and is lighter weight than anything I've used. I know what you're going to say, it's not worth $400 for "feel" right? Of course it isn't, not while your XT stuff works fine... and especially not since you now have 4 BBs in stock. When it's time to upgrade, though I recommend you go with the new standard (if it's still around - LOL). And by then the cost will have come down. LOL, look Jonesy, why not just buy the newest thing out there and ride the edge of the wave? It's the *only* way to beat the system of obsolescence. You're playing a losing game right now and you know it. =P Give in to the dark side once, and you'll forget why you ever fought it in the first place. Or they are pushing gear that might be better, or slightly better, via a marketing strategy that obsoletes designes that are three years old, in order to get folks to buy gear faster.**Do*the*Centerlock brakes actually brake better than ISO-mount brakes?**How*much*weight does it save?**Is*that*weight*savings*worth*the*entire*pri ce*it*would cost to switch (hubs, rotors)? Shimano designed a new XTR-level disc brake from the ground up. Why not create something *new* that may revolutionize disc brakes? All that is sacrificed is a little bit of compatibility (and even then the end user is still given the choice - being able to use XT rotors on any ISO hub they want). Again, being market driven, if it isn't what the public wants, it won't stick. They aren't the government, you know. I can't believe I'm here defending SHIMANO... but have you thought any of this through? Have you read what I have written? Keep it civil, John. The 'Man' is not trying to keep you down in this case, Jonesy. Where did I claim they were? Your entire argument against corporate-giant-800-pound-gorilla-microsoft-business-model Shimano screams it. I like being able to grab a ton of gears at once, and not have to click through all of them. That's one of the things I love about Gripshift. Yup me too. I feel kind of bad for starting this thread now, it wasn't intended to call you out, Jonesy. I respect your opinion, but there's really not a lot left that can be said about the subject until someone else adds another perspective. John M |
#26
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
"p e t e f a g e r l i n" wrote in message . com...
"Jonesy" wrote in message om... "p e t e f a g e r l i n" wrote in message .com... "Jonesy" wrote in message om... Seriously, if I have perfectly functional XT gear, why do I need to go out and buy XTR to try it out? If you supply the *measured* difference in torsional rigidity between '03 XT and '03/04 XTR, then maybe we have a place to start in a discussion over "better." (Hint: read the post before you go off and make all kinds of assumptions.) Ah, so you haven't tried the new stuff yet you continue to whine about planned obsolescence. Who said I hadn't tried it? "Send me a free set so I can try them out. That way I won't have to spend $400 (or whatever XTR goes for now) to see "for myself." Ooops, you snipped this part: "Seriously, if I have perfectly functional XT gear, why do I need to go out and buy XTR to try it out?" See, here's the thing, my reading-comprehension-impaired friend - I have indeed ridden it. But not on my bikes. So it's not really a fair test, is it? The answer to the question you ignored was, "you don't." Now, I'd just love to do a side-by-side test, but I am not going to spend hundreds of dollars to do it. Is the message sinking in, or do I have to write it in crayon? As far as supplying measured rigidity, LOL. So, I'm supposed to just believe some marketing hype spouted off in USENET? ROTFLMAO. Real world experience from people who have tried both cranks is now "marketing hype"? Read this: http://www.bcx.net/hypnosis/placebo.htm You're too much. No, my head is screwed on straight. Folks who claim something without any kind of proof? Sort of MJV-like. Get real. All kinds of myths about materials exist - and claims made by someone who may or may not have any idea of what he's talking about don't prove anything. Ah, more RBT geekitude. Awesome! Dodging the issue doesn't make it disappear. Did you know that folks used to think the heavens circled the earth? Why, they saw it with their own eyes! Likewise, bicycle lore abounds - straight-gauge vs. swaged spokes, the stiffness of Al frames vs. the compliance of steel, etc, etc. Pete, I deal in reality. You don't have any sort of evidence other than your "feelings" on the matter. See that website I gave above. The fact is that the new XTR/Saint stuff is very good, and noticably better than the older stuff, or Raceface. According to whom? You? LOL - "I bought it, so it must be good." Uh...yeah right Spider. I don't have my self-worth wrapped up in what kind of cranks I ride. That's why you are arguing about it, then? Accusing me of being some kind of brand loyalist is amusing in it's irony. It's quite simple. They are better. Blah, blah, blah. Of course they are better. That's not really the question, even if you happen to think it is. The real question, if you had actually been paying attention is "*how* much better?" Is it really worth getting rid of perfectly usable stuff? No, it really isn't. I've bought plenty of crap and have no problems identifying those products as such. In this case, the new XTR stuff is simply superior. Nobody is calling the new XTR crap, and nobody is saying they aren't an improvement. Try and keep up, OK? If you have tried them and think they aren't superior (ease of install, rigidity, durability, weight, etc.) *How* superior? Enough to throw away $150 of perfectly useable gear? Send me a free set so I can try them out. That way I won't have to spend $400 (or whatever XTR goes for now) to see "for myself." Thanks for admitting once again that you have no bassis for comparision. Oh, I do have a bassis [sic]. Your inferrences based on unfounded assumptions aside, of course. Hmmm...more fantasies, eh? Nope, just your mistaken inferrences from not actually reading what was written. Thanks for playing. It really just comes down to you whining for the sake of hearing yourself whine, eh? And your counter-whine is what, exactly? Not a counter whine. Sure it is. You're all upset that I'm dissing your gear - like it means anything, what *I* think. Otherwise you wouldn't rant on and on about how great it is. What was that you were saying about brand loyalty, again? LOL. Just an attempt at educating someone who is apparently hopelessly clueless. I try. Irony at it's height. You can't be arsed to read my previous comments, and then get all shirty when you screw up and assume what ain't there. Freakin' hilarious. p.s. I never suggested that you throw away usable gear. Bull****. What else am I going to do with it? Start some metal-sculpture project? LOL. You're apparently really wrapped up this time Spider. Here's a bit of Spiderism: Please quote where I suggested that you throw away usable gear. Here's a logic lesson, unless you are just being ironically pedantic: If I put XTR on my bike, I must take off the XT. Since the other bike already has XT, the take-off has nowhere useful to go. So, give it away, throw it away, put it in storage to take up space, or try and sell it (no guarantees of sale.) So, you go right ahead and tell me about how the money I spent on the gear will somehow magically get back in my pocket. That, and weight - already given. I'll drag two extra Powerbars up the hill for $400, thanks. Installation? I'm not sure how much faster it is than installing a cartridge BB and regular crank arms, but since I'm not installing 100 of them a day, I don't think that's much of an issue. stiffness An unsubstantiated claim. LOL again at the RBT geekitude. Until there's something other than your biased word on it, then I'm not buying it. John Morgan said "smoother." *That* I'll buy. I have very serious doubts you can feel any difference in bending or rotation. Maybe if we stacked up a bunch of matresses, and put a pea under the bottom one... ease of maintenance How much simpler can it be - pull out old, used cart. BB, throw in a new one. Is it worth $250 over the limited lifetime of the product? Simply replacing the outboard bearings is easier with the new setup. And that saves how much time per year? 10 minutes? Yes, superior. Not much, but some. Worth the additional price? LMAO. Let me help Spider: No, let *me* help *you*: That'll be the day Fred. Too late, already stuck you on the incorrect generalization, and the incorrect conclusion. Try and keep up. "To poopoo it simply because it's new is to be a retrogrouch lemming." I'm not poopooing the stuff simply because it's new. Re-read my comments for the clue you need. Oh, and you quoted out of context: "I like new tech that makes real improvement. Incremental, small, performance-neutral tech that costs a lot of dough and obsoletes my existing, perfectly-functional gear is what bothers me." See that first sentence? It's not a throw-away. Thanks for playing. And that just about sums it up...you lack the experience with the new stuff that would allow you to understand that it's anything but incremental, small, performance-neutral tech. In my metric, which you would know if you had bothered to actually read what I wrote, it is incremental, it is small, and it is performance-neutral. Of course, if you don't bother reading, you won't know what the other parameter is that goes unstated. Not my problem. It also doesn't obsolete your existing equipment. Let's see: How do I mount my ISO rotors to a Centerlock hub? Oh, yeah - go out and BUY a Problem-solvers adapter. Yeah, that's not making obsolete. LOL. And I can mount the Centerlock rotors to what ISO hubs? When I break, bend, or otherwise screw up my XT crank, I can just go out and buy a new XT part to replace it? No? It won't fit, you say? Hmmm, no obsolescence there, either. LOL, again. My XT RD is high-normal. If I break it, where do I find another XT high-normal RD, if they are all low-normal? Now, I dunno if this is going to happen or not - so that one's an open question. After my stash of Octalink BBs runs out, do you think I'll be able to go right down and buy one, after they have been OOP for a couple of years? No, I'll have to actually go out and search for one, with no guarantee that my very popular BB size will still be available. I know that square-taper BBs will be around, however. From Truvative and RF, if needed. So now you can explain in detail how none of these incompatabilities are obsolescence in action. I can't wait. So what do you have left to whine about? Folks in USENET who quote out of context and don't actually read for comprehension? -- Jonesy |
#27
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
"p e t e f a g e r l i n" wrote in message . com...
"Jonesy" wrote in message om... "p e t e f a g e r l i n" wrote in message .com... "Jonesy" wrote in message m... Why not go for the better value/dollar of an older square taper model for $60? There was no such thing as a new XT 180mm crankset in square taper. But I would not have had any problem buying one if I could have found one. But there are a number of other manufacturers that make those cranks... Really? News to me. Tell me, Pete, who - besides Shimano - makes XT stuff? How...pedantic. Not surprising though. You complaining about pedantic commentary is wonderful irony. Sweet! Please focus on this bit right here-------"180mm crankset in square taper" If you think you need Shimano instead of other equally good brands, perhaps you're a blind brand loyalist or something similar. After pimping XTR, you sure are all full of irony, aren't you? I had a specific reason for looking at XT. But mostly, I went with it because I had no idea square-taper XT existed anywhere. I would have bought that, if I could have. That is truly odd. You actually limited yourself to Shimano cranks rather than getting a square taper crank from one of the many companies that offer them? Why? Read what I have written on the subject. You'll find the clue you lack. I'm not interested in reading all of your posts ... So, you come in on the middle of a thread and spread around your bull****, when all you needed to do was read a little in that thread - the part before you decided to drop your pearls of wisdom? Classic. Your answer has already been posted. Go look it up. -- Jonesy |
#28
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
John Morgan wrote in message news:%rvAc.6743$u%3.5153@fed1read04...
lots o' snipage throughout, doesn't matter, nobody will read it anyways [snip] Some folks do read this stuff, LOL. like I said before, I'm totally on-board with stuff that makes a real difference. Of course, I'm sure anyone that could afford it would be glad to accept giant leaps in technology that obviously improve performance. That's what I mean about disk brakes and suspension. Even SPV shocks are pretty neat stuff. I consider these things to be significant improvements. Unfortunately, improvements usually come in small, incremental, performance neutral steps. I agree. Which is why I don't buy a computer or computer parts when the latest/greatest hits the shelves. I like to buy my performance upgrade all in one shot. Why not go for the better value/dollar of an older square taper model for $60? There was no such thing as a new XT 180mm crankset in square taper. But I would not have had any problem buying one if I could have found one. XT? I was suggesting you go with square taper LX or Deore level. I mean, we're talking value and Deore is great for that. I wanted the best value for my dollar. I felt that XT was the lightest, strongest gear I could get for that money. I accepted Octalink as a downside, but only a downside because I would prefer to be able to do my own BB maintenance. This is where the new XTR is attractive. Another reason was that the Fango has chainstays that require the curved shape of the Shimano stuff. So says Mr. Castellano, on the spec sheet that came with the bike. You can punish Deore components just as long as anything else, then replace them for half the cost when they wear out. It's true. I almost did buy LX, but the supplier I was buying from didn't have any 180mm. 3.) I would say it's been the standard for a while, failed no... because it's better than what we had before it existed. If the "standard" fades away after only a few years, then it wasn't a very good standard. I have a more progressive attitude about this. The length of time a standard is in place isn't as important as getting someplace better with a newer standard. You said yourself it's about the quality of the ride... and you probably rarely think about your gripe with Shimano while you're cruising along. No, I don't, really. I like the fact that the gear works well and that it's pretty cheap for the performance level. Nothing wrong with being satisfied by the gear you currently have, but where do you draw the line between being satisfied and wanting to upgrade to newer and better stuff? I do that when I break, bend or am upgrading due to other reasons (disk brake hubs, and to replace the hubs that the ****ty LBS screwed up by not putting grease in them. Don't get me started...) Is it at the $60 price point? $120? $200? Really, the whole issue boils down to cost. I agree - I am willing to go new tech if the price is right. XTR ain't got the right price. If you could get the new XTR stuff for less dough, you wouldn't have any complaint, would you? Depends - but I sure as heck wouldn't buy it now - my XT gear works just fine, and I'm quite happy with it's performance. I frankly can't tell the difference between the XTR on a riding buddy's bike and my XT. It pedals, it stops, it changes gears. And it doesn't do it so much better as to have me going "holy ****, I gots to get me that stuff!" What does Dual Control do for me? The new crank and BB style? Centerlock hubs and disks? Low-normal vs. high-normal? 1.5 headtube diameter? Try them out and answer your own questions. LOL. Nice tactic. No, I want *you* to tell me why you think they are so great that I should change my bike over to them. What makes them worth the money? Why should I spend so much, if the benefits aren't easily apparent? Alright, I will meet you half-way. I've owned a splined XT setup and I've owned a new XTR setup. I've owned dual-control, rapid fire, and grip shift setups. Honestly, they all work great. I have no complaints about any of them. The new XTR runs the smoothest and "feels" higher quality than anything I've tried. That's fine. It feels good. Heck, isn't that the reason we sometimes buy one more expensive pair of pants over a cheaper pair? I'm a lightweight, so I couldn't tell you if XTR is any stiffer than what you use (I never noticed any flex in my XT cranks). The larger outboard bearings are superior in feel, that's for sure. I've heard they will last longer, having a larger surface area I'll buy both of those - they actually make some sort of sense. I'm on the border of clyde, and I never noticed any flex in my XTs either. Frankly, on an FS bike, I have no idea how anyone could feel some very small flex in the crankset. but I'm like you, I am usually fairly easy on my gear. The new generation gear shifts smoother, pedals smoother, brakes smoother, and is lighter weight than anything I've used. I know what you're going to say, it's not worth $400 for "feel" right? Of course it isn't, not while your XT stuff works fine... You *do* understand my point! And if you talk about braking and shifting in addition to pedalling, it's getting closer to $1k, right? and especially not since you now have 4 BBs in stock. When it's time to upgrade, though I recommend you go with the new standard (if it's still around - LOL). And by then the cost will have come down. I suspect I will have no choice but to go to some kind of different standard. Octalink will be dead, probably (maybe the 105 gruppo will continue on with Octalink...), and I'll have cranks that will be worth their weight in aluminum. LOL, look Jonesy, why not just buy the newest thing out there and ride the edge of the wave? It's the *only* way to beat the system of obsolescence. You're playing a losing game right now and you know it. =P You got that right. Raceface is going to an external bearing BB set-up, too. But I'll bet that they keep the ISIS and square-taper stuff going, for a while at least. Maybe by the time I've run out of BB, there'll be a whole new standard that obsoletes everything! Give in to the dark side once, and you'll forget why you ever fought it in the first place. Disk brakes, full suspension, really wide, low-pressure tires... Damn, I'm halfway there... Or they are pushing gear that might be better, or slightly better, via a marketing strategy that obsoletes designes that are three years old, in order to get folks to buy gear faster. Do the Centerlock brakes actually brake better than ISO-mount brakes? How much weight does it save? Is that weight savings worth the entire price it would cost to switch (hubs, rotors)? Shimano designed a new XTR-level disc brake from the ground up. Why not create something *new* that may revolutionize disc brakes? Here we must part company - the design is essentially the same. The same as disk brakes have been for 40 or so years. All that is sacrificed is a little bit of compatibility (and even then the end user is still given the choice - being able to use XT rotors on any ISO hub they want). Again, being market driven, if it isn't what the public wants, it won't stick. IIRC, XT is now going Centerlock as well. M760/765, I think. The 'Man' is not trying to keep you down in this case, Jonesy. Where did I claim they were? Your entire argument against corporate-giant-800-pound-gorilla-microsoft-business-model Shimano screams it. Shimano is big. Very big. They own a huge portion of the bike parts biz. Because they can offer very low cost OEM gear, they can, by their very size, dictate the design, good or bad. This is not paranoia, but just plain observation. In addition, since their OEM buyer often buy the gruppos in full sets, compatablity issues from year to year really don't touch them much. Last year, ISO + ISO rotor. This year, Centerlock + Centerlock rotor. It's still a wheelset that does exactly the same thing as last year's. Who cares if it's different? (Just an example.) I like being able to grab a ton of gears at once, and not have to click through all of them. That's one of the things I love about Gripshift. Yup me too. I feel kind of bad for starting this thread now, it wasn't intended to call you out, Jonesy. Don't be, and you didn't. My reasons for making the choices I do might not make a ton of sense to everyone, and that's OK. It's my money, and I'll spend it like I see fit. I have my opinions, and they sure as hell aren't going to match everyone elses', LOL. I do, however, consider myself a reasonable and careful shopper, no matter what the item - bike, car, stereo, lawnmower...you get the idea. If I screw up in my purchases, I will tell folks what, and why. I'll start with two things: Lawnmower. I bought a Troy-bilt. It had all the features I wanted, for a decent price. But that price turned out to be false economy, because half of those features failed right out of the warranty period, in an expensive fashion. Now I have a very heavy POS mower that I plan to run until the engine seizes. I am not putting another drop of oil in that damn thing, either. And wouldn't you know it, I haven't seen the level of oil drop on the dipstick in two years. Great - the whole thing's a POS EXCEPT the motor. LOL. Fork. I got a Marz Z1 Flylight 80. It's a nice fork, except that it's an air fork. Even at very low pressure, it's harsh in it's travel, ramping up too fast as it nears the end of it's stroke. I prefer MUCH more the coil-n-oil varieties of Marzocchi forks. Don't get me wrong, I think the Flylight is pretty good, but I wouldn't get another single-chamber air fork. (Maybe the Doppio Air is a better system. I'd have to try it to see.) I respect your opinion, but there's really not a lot left that can be said about the subject until someone else adds another perspective. I agree with you there. Maybe my Shimano-free pledge is foolish. But I'm going to go for it until I have a reason not to. Thanks for a good discussion, -- R.F. Jones |
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Thoughts on bike gear technology advancement
"Jonesy" wrote in message om... Seriously, if I have perfectly functional XT gear, why do I need to go out and buy XTR to try it out? If you supply the *measured* difference in torsional rigidity between '03 XT and '03/04 XTR, then maybe we have a place to start in a discussion over "better." (Hint: read the post before you go off and make all kinds of assumptions.) Ah, so you haven't tried the new stuff yet you continue to whine about planned obsolescence. Who said I hadn't tried it? "Send me a free set so I can try them out. That way I won't have to spend $400 (or whatever XTR goes for now) to see "for myself." Ooops, you snipped this part: "Seriously, if I have perfectly functional XT gear, why do I need to go out and buy XTR to try it out?" See, here's the thing, my reading-comprehension-impaired friend - I have indeed ridden it. But not on my bikes. So it's not really a fair test, is it? The answer to the question you ignored was, "you don't." So you've ridden it on another bike(s) yet you still haven't neen able to form a conclusion. Perfect. snip a whole bunch more of the same fredly flailing The mere fact that you consider the experiences of people with much, much more riding experience, in depth and width, than yourself because you're unable to see the "proof" (ala RBT geekitude) speaks volumes about your hangups Spider. They are just bikes after all. To whine about big bad ole Shimano "obsoleting" your gear is both silly, and inaccurate. It's too bad that you're all wrapped up in the "argument" and unable to see the forest for the trees. It's trite, but it it REALLY seems that you need to spend some more time riding. Perhaps then you would be able to understand what's being discussed. Cya, Pete |
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