Electra Amsterdam Royal8 - dynamo front hub?

Meanwhile, Jay, what have you found out about Electra Amsterdam sizes
and stock availability?

Andre Jute
Groundwork

On Feb 11, 11:49*pm, "Jay" wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message

...



Here's some descriptive comparisons from my use of similar bikes:

I have an AXA generator on my Gazelle Toulouse, with the disc brake.
The Toulouse was same as the Chamonix but with the disc/sidewall
generator replacing the Chamonix's hub dynamo/rollerbrake combo.
Perhaps Gazelle did it to keep the weight low, or perhaps to keep the
Toulouse price the same as the Chamonix. Electra may have similarly
confused motives with the Amsterdam.

The AXA sidewall generator on my Gazelle Toulouse does not make a
weaker light than the hub dynamo on my Trek L700 Navigator. *You can
use either light as an only light to ride by on lit streets streets;
they also help you be seen. Neither light is strong enough to use as
an only light on strange unlit roads; they will just about do on
familiar unlit roads. On both the sidewall generator and the hub
dynamo you have very substantial part of their available light already
at only 6 or 7 mph; however, the light dies altogether when you stop
(you can get socalled standlights; the only useful ones have
capacitors and light up the main light at full power). I use 5W flood
and 10W spot battery lights in addition to the generator/dynamo
lights. I would strongly suggest that you transfer whatever battery
lights you have on your current bike, or buy good battery lights for
your new bike.

The choice between the sidewall generator/hub dynamo therefore has to
be made on another consideration.

It will probably cost 100-150 bucks to get a front wheel with a dynamo
hub and rollerbrake built in to match the style and rear wheel of an
Amsterdam.

The point of a hub dynamo light is that it is always there, that it
gets you home when your batteries suddenly clock out, that it adds to
your visibility. The generator light ditto. But the hub dynamo has the
advantage that it works under all conditions. The question is, if you
will have hi-watt battery lights anyway, will the conditions in which
you ride (slush? ice?) so often make the sidewall generator unusable
as to justify spending extra money? (I have no experience of cycling
in such conditions, so I have no advice.)

A word about the lights that will come on your Amsterdam:

The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
enough for really adverse circumstances.

The rear light is probably either a Basta or a Spanninga. These are
good lights in their Dutch environment, where a car driver who hits a
cyclist is automatically held to be in the wrong unless there are
mitigating circumstances, but in Chicago (or anywhere outside the
Benelux) they are not bright and obvious enough. On my Trek I have the
best of that lot, the Spaninga Ultra. It's greatest feature is that
after a 50 hours it is almost as brightly visible as in the first
hour, and it has space for a pair of spare batteries inside. (The
Toulouse has a custom Gazelle light, made for them by Basta; it too is
automatic, it too is very economical, it too is not bright enough by
itself to make me feel secure.) I kept the Spanninga rear light on the
Trek because it is very lightweight and very economical and because it
switches itself on at dusk, but I promply backed it up with a Cateye
LD-1100 which is totally illegal in the Benelux and Germany...

****

So, in summary, Dutch and German sidewall generator or hub dynamo
front lights, and battery rear lights (or dynamo rear lights for that
matter) are good enough for backup and an added layer of visibility.
Both should be viewed as permanent emergency installations and
supplemented with hi-watt battery lights at the front and a flashing
LED (the Cateye LD1100 is the best unless you want to lash out for a
Dinotte rear light) at the back.

Thus, whether you should accept the sidewall generator or spend extra
on a hub dynamo/rollerbrake/wheel depends on your view of how many
days in the year riding conditions will make the sidewall generator
work unacceptably and thereby compromise a secondary system.

HTH.

Andre Jute
If you aren't paranoid, why are you a cyclist?

It sounds like I will just go with the Electra stock AXA sidewall generator
on this bike. I will see how it goes. I like DiNotte lights, and their
after-sale support. So I might buy another set for this new bike, if
necessary. I will still be riding my folder, but only in good weather. So
those lights are going to stay on the folder.

J.

"Martin Borsje" wrote in message
...

AXA is a very common dynamo in the Netherlands, as I speak.

If you don't ride too many times in snowy conditions it is a good dynamo.

If you do ride often in snowy conditions or like the luxury of a hub gen,
please do buy one.

I fully concur with the recommendations on dynamo powered LED lighting,
front and rear.

Batteries always seem to be empty just when you need them most or when a
police officer is nearby....

Martin
Netherlands (190 km from Amsterdam)


I agree;

I think Andre's suggestion of redundant lighting systems is a good idea.
Good lights are a safety issue, and much cheaper than a hospital bill.

J.

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
Meanwhile, Jay, what have you found out about Electra Amsterdam sizes
and stock availability?

Andre Jute
Groundwork


I will probably call Rapid Transit Cycle in Chicago tomorrow, and place the
order.

I see RTC mentions Electra on their home page
http://www.rapidtransitcycles.com/ .

RTC's web page is mostly dead. They seem to do business strictly by phone or
in person.

J.

"Jay" wrote in message
. ..

I think Andre's suggestion of redundant lighting systems is a good idea.
Good lights are a safety issue, and much cheaper than a hospital bill.

You don't actually need redundant systems, just one which works. A hub
dynamo-based one will be the most reliable both in terms of
mechanical/electrical reliability, and in terms of human reliability - no
batteries to remember to charge, lights are permanently attached to the bike
so no forgetting to put them on.

Get a modern LED front lamp for it (you can guess which one I'm suggesting),
and you'll not have to worry about bulbs blowing (I'm assuming LEDs for the
back - been years since I've used a filament there), and anybody who's seen
the amount of light they put out, even in standlight mode, would realise
even the most paranoid person doesn't need a battery backup.

cheers,
clive

Andre Jute wrote:
[...]
It is a matter of opinion, Clive. I see three purposes for lighting:
being seen, seeing, earning respect that makes cars give you space.
Dynamo lights are marginal to adequate for the first two and useless
for the third. So I back them up with hi-watt battery lights and make
sure.[...]

I like the lights Boeing uses on the landing gear.

My ideal headlight for a bicycle would be a 55W low/80W high beam
halogen powered by a fuel cell.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On Feb 11, 7:16 pm, "Jay" wrote:

I think Andre's suggestion of redundant lighting systems is a good idea.
Good lights are a safety issue, and much cheaper than a hospital bill.


In general, redundancy of night lighting is good. But the appropriate
degree of redundancy is roughly proportional to the unreliability of
the system.

For a hub dynamo, there are very few likely points of failure, no
matter what the riding conditions. You may burn out a bulb. Snagging
and breaking a wire or connection is a remote possibility, negligible
if you've routed the wires well. So carry a spare bulb. If you like,
you can carry a tiny coin-sized LED light to illuminate the bulb-
changing operation.

For a bottle dynamo, you can add a tiny chance of the unit getting
knocked out of alignment - but that's easy to adequately fix by just
bending it back. You can add a greater chance of it slipping in
slushy winter, deep mud, or perhaps rain. If you're able to avoid
those circumstances, just carry a spare bulb.

For anything battery powered, you've got to add the possibility of not
having the light with you because you thought you wouldn't need it; or
not having enough charge in the battery; or having the light removed
by a thief; or having the mounting system partially fail and refuse to
aim the light properly; or having the mounting system completely fail
and throw the unit on the street. I've either experienced or seen all
those failures, and more, which is why I rely on my generator
lights.

Regarding redundancy, I do have two taillights, one generator powered
and one battery powered. I also have reflectors.

And when I lead night rides, I carry a couple extra headlights for
redundancy. But they're for the folks who bring battery lights, not
for me. I've loaned them out many times.

- Frank Krygowski

Jay wrote:
I was mainly wondering if, with my riding conditions, this friction-drive
dynamo would be a bad choice. Sounds like most people think it will be OK.
If Electa offered a hub dynamo as an option, I would go with it.

I think much of the objection to friction drive dynamos stems from the
ease with which they become misaligned, which increases drive drag
to a noticeable degree. I have used both a Union and a Soubitez roller
unit (neither in their intended bottom-bracket location) and both worked
fine. One Union failed after about a year, and it was simple to replace.

Lately I've been riding a Breezer Uptown 8 with a Shimano hub generator
and B&M Lumotec lighting system. Very nice, but heavy and expensive.
If the hub dynamo ever fails, it's a wheel swap or a long downtime.

If you take care of generator alignment and wiring integrity, friction drive
will do just fine.

bob prohaska

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:25:09 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
wrote:
On Feb 11, 3:52*pm, Jasper Janssen wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:28:20 -0600, "Jay" wrote:
My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going this
route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design, they
would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.

BEcause the Axa HR is a traditional Dutch Bike design and the hub dynamos
aren't, I actually suspect.

Nah, hub dynamos have been used on Dutch bikes of the most traditional
design for a good many years now; they have become standard, expected
by consumers. Check out the Gazelle site www.gazelle.nl and count the
number of bikes left with rim dynamos.

The Traditional-Dutch-Bike still doesn't have them, and it's only in the
last 3-4 years that they're getting to be standard on higher end, new
models, though. Mainly the 30E Shimano model that made it feasible, since
that's only a very little up (retail price) from an Axa HR + front hub.
*And* you don't have to have frames with a sidewall dynamo tab welded on.

Jasper

On Feb 14, 12:54*pm, Jasper Janssen wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:25:09 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Feb 11, 3:52*pm, Jasper Janssen wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:28:20 -0600, "Jay" wrote:
My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going this
route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design, they
would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.

BEcause the Axa HR is a traditional Dutch Bike design and the hub dynamos
aren't, I actually suspect.
Nah, hub dynamos have been used on Dutch bikes of the most traditional
design for a good many years now; they have become standard, expected
by consumers. Check out the Gazelle sitewww.gazelle.nland count the
number of bikes left with rim dynamos.

The Traditional-Dutch-Bike still doesn't have them, and it's only in the
last 3-4 years that they're getting to be standard on higher end, new
models, though. Mainly the 30E Shimano model that made it feasible, since
that's only a very little up (retail price) from an Axa HR + front hub.
*And* you don't have to have frames with a sidewall dynamo tab welded on.

Jasper

Perhaps hub dynamos have been coming in for more than just 3-4 years;
when I started looking at Dutch city bikes in the winter of 2003, hub
dynamos seemed to be the accepted standard already, though admittedly
I looked only at the top class of bikes. In particular, it seemed very
odd that the Gazelle Toulouse (which I bought for its disc brake -- I
wasn't yet a convert to roller brakes) was the only one of the top
Gazelle bikes with a sidewall generator; I thought it was either a
weight-saving device (ludicrous, considering that a Gazelle bike
starts hefty and is then trimmed up luxuriously without any reference
to weight) or to match the price of the all-rollerbrake companion
Chamonix, that is a simple marketing decision rather than a technical
one.

The odd thing about those early Shimano hub dynamos that took the OEM
market by storm is that they made more drag when they were switched
off than when switched on (go little Fogel, gofer Google, there's a
comparative study on the net, bring us the URL). When the light was
switched on it was nearly as good as the SON hub dynamo. (The
difference in drag was the equivalent about a foot rise in a mile,
IIRC.) Those early models are still available built into wheels very
cheaply on ebay.de and may well be worth buying if you have LED lights
that can be left on permanently. But for general purposes, and for the
big guys that seem to abound on RBT (or is it just Chalo's outsize
peronality that makes it seem so?) I think the newer Shimano models,
which are as good as the SON, might be more versatile (eg in the
rollerbrakes that can be used) and not all that much more expensive;
theoretically, with better seals, they will also last longer, but
that's theoretical, because no one has yet complained that the first
widely used Shimano hub dynamoes were poorly sealed -- the big
practical difference is that the newer ones have lower drag.

Andre Jute
Illuminator of unconsidered trifles

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...

Perhaps hub dynamos have been coming in for more than just 3-4 years;

Fitted my first one in 1997, so over 10 years ago.