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Mavic in receivership



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 10th 20, 10:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Mavic in receivership

On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 9:33:16 PM UTC+1, wrote:

...what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today. Why would you think that people would be willing to pay $2,000 for a pair of Zip wheels instead of $300 for a pair of Kyseriums? If you try riding them you can barely tell the difference. Certainly up to amateur racers you can't tell the difference unless like me you descend at very high speed. Mavic shoes are very high quality and moderate pricing. Mavic has been making framesets for a long time but not advertising them.

I'm sure that someone could make a real go of them. And making aluminum deep section aero rims would steal a great deal of the carbon fiber wheels market away. Have you used carbon fiber wheels with rim brakes? Are you aware of the engineering nightmare of disk brakes?

All in all Mavic should be in a very good position but perhaps the union problems in France are what killed them?


Tom, I'm wondering if the people who have been batting Mavic around like a financial table tennis ball actually know anything about the products you list. It is pretty common for investors of the type these appear to be to see the greatest value in the goodwill of a great name, to buy sometimes financially and otherwise mismanaged big-name firms at anything from bargain to over the top prices in the hope of selling the big name to a Chinese sucker for a very big payday. Meanwhile they put in only enough money to keep the big name alive but not to develop new products, and they don't care that the Chinese buyer will drag the name through the mud with overpriced but cheapened products.

Andre Jute
They way of the world
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  #12  
Old May 10th 20, 10:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Mavic in receivership

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 9:16:27 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 1:33:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 9:27:02 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 9:01:14 AM UTC-5, wrote:

Do you have any idea that Mavic supplied over half of the high end aluminum wheel business? People STILL prefer aluminum wheels for any number of reasons and you can make an aluminum wheel lighter than a carbon fiber wheel unless you want to take unwarranted chances with those CF wheels. CF spoke tension has to be at least that of an AL wheel and that can pull a spoke nipple through. There are means to avoid that but I haven't seen it on any of even the high end CF wheels.

So whoever has Mavic has a very popular Kyserium line of wheels. They have to upgrade to aluminum aero wheels - China is already doing that but the designs aren't quite correct and Fulcrum does know how they should be built.

The Chinese have essentially taken over the CF deep section wheel business. Anyone that is paying $1,500 to save 100 grams is pretty stupid. That leaves the market wide open for the many advantages of AL aero wheels. Better spoke tension, better braking, less chance of burning off the brake track under hard braking. Disk brakes will not end up taking over. Direct mount rim brakes will.

Does the bicycle industry intend to hand the wheel making business over to the Chinese after having built them the automatic spoke tensioners so that there is no labor left in building wheels?

Sort of replying to the person who wrote this. And sort of not as well. Mavic's business is gone. So bankruptcy is not surprising. Mavic wheels are similar to car tires and car batteries. Essential parts. But 99.9% of car buyers and car drivers have no idea what brand or model of tire or battery they have in their car. And don't really care as long as it works.. Same as bicycle wheels. If the Chinese can make the wheels for half the price as Mavic, they get all the business. And Mavic gets zero.

Now, with car tires there are special tires that are craved. Not sure about batteries. But tires yes. And carbon bicycle wheels fill that spot. Mavic does not have any competition for this elite place. So some of the carbon wheel makers can thrive making the special wheels that people willing pay for. And there are some car tires that go on Ferrari and Mclaren and such cars.


Russell, what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today. Why would you think that people would be willing to pay $2,000 for a pair of Zip wheels instead of $300 for a pair of Kyseriums? If you try riding them you can barely tell the difference. Certainly up to amateur racers you can't tell the difference unless like me you descend at very high speed. Mavic shoes are very high quality and moderate pricing. Mavic has been making framesets for a long time but not advertising them.

I'm sure that someone could make a real go of them. And making aluminum deep section aero rims would steal a great deal of the carbon fiber wheels market away. Have you used carbon fiber wheels with rim brakes? Are you aware of the engineering nightmare of disk brakes?

All in all Mavic should be in a very good position but perhaps the union problems in France are what killed them?


A $300 Ksyrium/set (note spelling) doesn't exist. https://www.westernbikeworks.com/sea...d=mma&fcat=ccw The Aksium is in the $300 range/set, and it's OE crap. Anyone can build an aluminum OE wheel as good, and Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, etc. did.

So, if the OE market goes away, that leaves Mavic competing in the after-market, and when you think of top-notch aftermarket wheels, Mavic is like fourth in line at the same price point. And when the parent company owns Enve, the maker of great high-dollar after-market wheels, Mavic is the ugly cousin that gets sold off. I'm sure the deal was highly leveraged, and when OE sales flagged, the new owners probably bailed. They'll probably try to recoup losses by selling brands, equipment, etc., and then Shin Dong Wheels will become the new Mavic. Put a set on your Chinarello.


-- Jay Beattie.


Ah, I see you were there before me in the cynicism stakes. -- AJ
  #13  
Old May 10th 20, 10:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Mavic in receivership

On 5/10/2020 4:29 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 9:33:16 PM UTC+1, wrote:

...what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today. Why would you think that people would be willing to pay $2,000 for a pair of Zip wheels instead of $300 for a pair of Kyseriums? If you try riding them you can barely tell the difference. Certainly up to amateur racers you can't tell the difference unless like me you descend at very high speed. Mavic shoes are very high quality and moderate pricing. Mavic has been making framesets for a long time but not advertising them.

I'm sure that someone could make a real go of them. And making aluminum deep section aero rims would steal a great deal of the carbon fiber wheels market away. Have you used carbon fiber wheels with rim brakes? Are you aware of the engineering nightmare of disk brakes?

All in all Mavic should be in a very good position but perhaps the union problems in France are what killed them?


Tom, I'm wondering if the people who have been batting Mavic around like a financial table tennis ball actually know anything about the products you list. It is pretty common for investors of the type these appear to be to see the greatest value in the goodwill of a great name, to buy sometimes financially and otherwise mismanaged big-name firms at anything from bargain to over the top prices in the hope of selling the big name to a Chinese sucker for a very big payday. Meanwhile they put in only enough money to keep the big name alive but not to develop new products, and they don't care that the Chinese buyer will drag the name through the mud with overpriced but cheapened products.

Andre Jute
They way of the world


You're right and we've seen that movie before - several
dozen times in our small industry and hundreds of times out
in the larger world.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #14  
Old May 10th 20, 11:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Mavic in receivership

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/10/2020 4:29 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 9:33:16 PM UTC+1, wrote:

...what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today. Why would you think that people would be willing to pay $2,000 for a pair of Zip wheels instead of $300 for a pair of Kyseriums? If you try riding them you can barely tell the difference. Certainly up to amateur racers you can't tell the difference unless like me you descend at very high speed. Mavic shoes are very high quality and moderate pricing. Mavic has been making framesets for a long time but not advertising them.

I'm sure that someone could make a real go of them. And making aluminum deep section aero rims would steal a great deal of the carbon fiber wheels market away. Have you used carbon fiber wheels with rim brakes? Are you aware of the engineering nightmare of disk brakes?

All in all Mavic should be in a very good position but perhaps the union problems in France are what killed them?


Tom, I'm wondering if the people who have been batting Mavic around like a financial table tennis ball actually know anything about the products you list. It is pretty common for investors of the type these appear to be to see the greatest value in the goodwill of a great name, to buy sometimes financially and otherwise mismanaged big-name firms at anything from bargain to over the top prices in the hope of selling the big name to a Chinese sucker for a very big payday. Meanwhile they put in only enough money to keep the big name alive but not to develop new products, and they don't care that the Chinese buyer will drag the name through the mud with overpriced but cheapened products.

Andre Jute
They way of the world


You're right and we've seen that movie before - several
dozen times in our small industry and hundreds of times out
in the larger world.


One of my bicycle buddies is in that business. He becomes CEO or CFO of some company purchased by a private equity group and gets it shaped up for resale. The investors tend to keep the technical staff and sometimes even the founder for a period of time, but the idea is to get it managed and ready to sell.

Some of those great brands of yore were horribly mis-managed and died because of labor or market issues, like Schwinn. The private equity guys weren't just arbitragers, at least not to start. If the business model is unsustainable and the company cannot be shaped-up, then they will part it out.

It seems that the big deal these days is owning the IP and getting a royalty stream while letting other people make the product, although I don't think that would be the model for Mavic.

I could see Cannondale or some other company with no wheel brand buying it up dirt cheap and bringing it in house like Roval or Bontrager. Maybe even develop some OE wheels that aren't good for just holding-up the bike in the showroom. It used to be that expensive bikes came with nice wheels, but not so much anymore. I got some cheap Mavic wheels OE on my Super Six, and they wouldn't stay true for an entire ride.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #15  
Old May 10th 20, 11:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 884
Default Mavic in receivership

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 2:30:46 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 9:16:27 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 1:33:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 9:27:02 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 9:01:14 AM UTC-5, wrote:

Do you have any idea that Mavic supplied over half of the high end aluminum wheel business? People STILL prefer aluminum wheels for any number of reasons and you can make an aluminum wheel lighter than a carbon fiber wheel unless you want to take unwarranted chances with those CF wheels. CF spoke tension has to be at least that of an AL wheel and that can pull a spoke nipple through. There are means to avoid that but I haven't seen it on any of even the high end CF wheels.

So whoever has Mavic has a very popular Kyserium line of wheels. They have to upgrade to aluminum aero wheels - China is already doing that but the designs aren't quite correct and Fulcrum does know how they should be built.

The Chinese have essentially taken over the CF deep section wheel business. Anyone that is paying $1,500 to save 100 grams is pretty stupid. That leaves the market wide open for the many advantages of AL aero wheels.. Better spoke tension, better braking, less chance of burning off the brake track under hard braking. Disk brakes will not end up taking over. Direct mount rim brakes will.

Does the bicycle industry intend to hand the wheel making business over to the Chinese after having built them the automatic spoke tensioners so that there is no labor left in building wheels?

Sort of replying to the person who wrote this. And sort of not as well. Mavic's business is gone. So bankruptcy is not surprising. Mavic wheels are similar to car tires and car batteries. Essential parts. But 99..9% of car buyers and car drivers have no idea what brand or model of tire or battery they have in their car. And don't really care as long as it works. Same as bicycle wheels. If the Chinese can make the wheels for half the price as Mavic, they get all the business. And Mavic gets zero.

Now, with car tires there are special tires that are craved. Not sure about batteries. But tires yes. And carbon bicycle wheels fill that spot. Mavic does not have any competition for this elite place. So some of the carbon wheel makers can thrive making the special wheels that people willing pay for. And there are some car tires that go on Ferrari and Mclaren and such cars.

Russell, what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today. Why would you think that people would be willing to pay $2,000 for a pair of Zip wheels instead of $300 for a pair of Kyseriums? If you try riding them you can barely tell the difference. Certainly up to amateur racers you can't tell the difference unless like me you descend at very high speed. Mavic shoes are very high quality and moderate pricing. Mavic has been making framesets for a long time but not advertising them.

I'm sure that someone could make a real go of them. And making aluminum deep section aero rims would steal a great deal of the carbon fiber wheels market away. Have you used carbon fiber wheels with rim brakes? Are you aware of the engineering nightmare of disk brakes?

All in all Mavic should be in a very good position but perhaps the union problems in France are what killed them?


A $300 Ksyrium/set (note spelling) doesn't exist. https://www.westernbikeworks.com/sea...d=mma&fcat=ccw The Aksium is in the $300 range/set, and it's OE crap. Anyone can build an aluminum OE wheel as good, and Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, etc. did.

So, if the OE market goes away, that leaves Mavic competing in the after-market, and when you think of top-notch aftermarket wheels, Mavic is like fourth in line at the same price point. And when the parent company owns Enve, the maker of great high-dollar after-market wheels, Mavic is the ugly cousin that gets sold off. I'm sure the deal was highly leveraged, and when OE sales flagged, the new owners probably bailed. They'll probably try to recoup losses by selling brands, equipment, etc., and then Shin Dong Wheels will become the new Mavic. Put a set on your Chinarello.


-- Jay Beattie.


Ah, I see you were there before me in the cynicism stakes. -- AJ


I thought he was far more interested in misspellings rather than making any objective point.
  #16  
Old May 10th 20, 11:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 884
Default Mavic in receivership

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/10/2020 4:29 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 9:33:16 PM UTC+1, wrote:

...what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today. Why would you think that people would be willing to pay $2,000 for a pair of Zip wheels instead of $300 for a pair of Kyseriums? If you try riding them you can barely tell the difference. Certainly up to amateur racers you can't tell the difference unless like me you descend at very high speed. Mavic shoes are very high quality and moderate pricing. Mavic has been making framesets for a long time but not advertising them.

I'm sure that someone could make a real go of them. And making aluminum deep section aero rims would steal a great deal of the carbon fiber wheels market away. Have you used carbon fiber wheels with rim brakes? Are you aware of the engineering nightmare of disk brakes?

All in all Mavic should be in a very good position but perhaps the union problems in France are what killed them?

Tom, I'm wondering if the people who have been batting Mavic around like a financial table tennis ball actually know anything about the products you list. It is pretty common for investors of the type these appear to be to see the greatest value in the goodwill of a great name, to buy sometimes financially and otherwise mismanaged big-name firms at anything from bargain to over the top prices in the hope of selling the big name to a Chinese sucker for a very big payday. Meanwhile they put in only enough money to keep the big name alive but not to develop new products, and they don't care that the Chinese buyer will drag the name through the mud with overpriced but cheapened products.

Andre Jute
They way of the world


You're right and we've seen that movie before - several
dozen times in our small industry and hundreds of times out
in the larger world.


One of my bicycle buddies is in that business. He becomes CEO or CFO of some company purchased by a private equity group and gets it shaped up for resale. The investors tend to keep the technical staff and sometimes even the founder for a period of time, but the idea is to get it managed and ready to sell.

Some of those great brands of yore were horribly mis-managed and died because of labor or market issues, like Schwinn. The private equity guys weren't just arbitragers, at least not to start. If the business model is unsustainable and the company cannot be shaped-up, then they will part it out.

It seems that the big deal these days is owning the IP and getting a royalty stream while letting other people make the product, although I don't think that would be the model for Mavic.

I could see Cannondale or some other company with no wheel brand buying it up dirt cheap and bringing it in house like Roval or Bontrager. Maybe even develop some OE wheels that aren't good for just holding-up the bike in the showroom. It used to be that expensive bikes came with nice wheels, but not so much anymore. I got some cheap Mavic wheels OE on my Super Six, and they wouldn't stay true for an entire ride.


It has been taught to children that they don't want to carry on the old man's business but that they should make their own way through the world. That is why such a large percentage of today's kids have education bills that they will never be able to repay and companies like Schwinn and Chevrolet haven't even had a family member of the boards for two generations.
  #17  
Old May 11th 20, 04:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Chalo
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Posts: 5,093
Default Mavic in receivership

They've been overpriced garbage merchants since Adidas Salomon bought them up way back when. I'll be glad to see them fail and take lots of stupid money down with them.
  #18  
Old May 11th 20, 05:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Mavic in receivership

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 3:55:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/10/2020 4:29 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 9:33:16 PM UTC+1, wrote:

...what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today. Why would you think that people would be willing to pay $2,000 for a pair of Zip wheels instead of $300 for a pair of Kyseriums? If you try riding them you can barely tell the difference. Certainly up to amateur racers you can't tell the difference unless like me you descend at very high speed. Mavic shoes are very high quality and moderate pricing. Mavic has been making framesets for a long time but not advertising them.

I'm sure that someone could make a real go of them. And making aluminum deep section aero rims would steal a great deal of the carbon fiber wheels market away. Have you used carbon fiber wheels with rim brakes? Are you aware of the engineering nightmare of disk brakes?

All in all Mavic should be in a very good position but perhaps the union problems in France are what killed them?

Tom, I'm wondering if the people who have been batting Mavic around like a financial table tennis ball actually know anything about the products you list. It is pretty common for investors of the type these appear to be to see the greatest value in the goodwill of a great name, to buy sometimes financially and otherwise mismanaged big-name firms at anything from bargain to over the top prices in the hope of selling the big name to a Chinese sucker for a very big payday. Meanwhile they put in only enough money to keep the big name alive but not to develop new products, and they don't care that the Chinese buyer will drag the name through the mud with overpriced but cheapened products.

Andre Jute
They way of the world


You're right and we've seen that movie before - several
dozen times in our small industry and hundreds of times out
in the larger world.


One of my bicycle buddies is in that business. He becomes CEO or CFO of some company purchased by a private equity group and gets it shaped up for resale. The investors tend to keep the technical staff and sometimes even the founder for a period of time, but the idea is to get it managed and ready to sell.

Some of those great brands of yore were horribly mis-managed and died because of labor or market issues, like Schwinn. The private equity guys weren't just arbitragers, at least not to start. If the business model is unsustainable and the company cannot be shaped-up, then they will part it out.

It seems that the big deal these days is owning the IP and getting a royalty stream while letting other people make the product, although I don't think that would be the model for Mavic.

I could see Cannondale or some other company with no wheel brand buying it up dirt cheap and bringing it in house like Roval or Bontrager. Maybe even develop some OE wheels that aren't good for just holding-up the bike in the showroom. It used to be that expensive bikes came with nice wheels, but not so much anymore. I got some cheap Mavic wheels OE on my Super Six, and they wouldn't stay true for an entire ride.


It has been taught to children that they don't want to carry on the old man's business but that they should make their own way through the world. That is why such a large percentage of today's kids have education bills that they will never be able to repay and companies like Schwinn and Chevrolet haven't even had a family member of the boards for two generations.


Schwinn's family members rode the company into bankruptcy. Chevrolet sold his shares in the company in 1915. My family's business -- a small-town pharmacy, is not sustainable. My father told all of us not to follow in his footsteps. The family business: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/31/01...a01d26ff47.jpg It's now a boutique of some sort or a high-end shoe store, probably owned by the wife of a billionaire with nothing better to do. A lot of family businesses don't make sense anymore, unless the family business was real estate or McDonalds franchises -- or a bodega.


== Jay Beattie.

  #19  
Old May 11th 20, 07:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Mavic in receivership

On 5/10/2020 9:38 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

Schwinn's family members rode the company into bankruptcy. Chevrolet sold his shares in the company in 1915. My family's business -- a small-town pharmacy, is not sustainable. My father told all of us not to follow in his footsteps. The family business: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/31/01...a01d26ff47.jpg It's now a boutique of some sort or a high-end shoe store, probably owned by the wife of a billionaire with nothing better to do. A lot of family businesses don't make sense anymore, unless the family business was real estate or McDonalds franchises -- or a bodega.


There are still quite a few independent pharmacies around, often
compounding pharmacies, something CVS, Walgreen's, Rite Aid, Costco,
Walmart, Kaiser, and healthwarehouse.com don't do.
  #20  
Old May 11th 20, 07:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Mavic in receivership

On 5/10/2020 1:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

A $300 Ksyrium/set (note spelling) doesn't exist. https://www.westernbikeworks.com/sea...d=mma&fcat=ccw The Aksium is in the $300 range/set, and it's OE crap. Anyone can build an aluminum OE wheel as good, and Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, etc. did.


That's the bottom line. Wheel-building is highly automated and it's not
rocket science to build a wheel-building assembly line. The high-volume
bicycle factories in China are not going to order wheels from France.

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-robot-wheel-building-revolution/

 




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