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So what about his much-vaunted household contents insurance?



 
 
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  #51  
Old June 24th 19, 11:38 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
jnugent
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,574
Default So what about his much-vaunted household contents insurance?

On 24/06/2019 09:20, TMS320 wrote:
On 23/06/2019 19:36, JNugent wrote:
On 23/06/2019 17:03, TMS320 wrote:
On 23/06/2019 00:33, JNugent wrote:
On 23/06/2019 00:14, TMS320 wrote:
On 22/06/2019 20:38, JNugent wrote:
On 22/06/2019 16:15, TMS320 wrote:
On 22/06/2019 13:39, JNugent wrote:
On 22/06/2019 12:55, TMS320 wrote:
On 22/06/2019 01:00, JNugent wrote:
To say nothing of his fridge-freezer policy?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/21/cyclist-crashed-into-woman-mobile-phone-pay-compensation-london






QUOTE: Hazeldean [the cyclist who ran down a pedestrian]
Ā*... said he was ā€œreelingā€ from a verdict that would leave him
bankrupt. In a statement he said: ā€œI am of course deeply
disappointed with the outcome ā€¦ and concerned by the precedent
that it might set for other cyclists. ENDQUOTE

But surely any court decision which reinforces and emphasises
the need for caution and restraint is good for
society in general?

Yes, drivers should not feel smug when they kill or injure
Ā*5800 pedestrians a year.

Who is "they"?

OK, drivers should not feel they have some sense of superiority
over this one cyclist.

I have never killed or injured anyone. Perhaps you have and are
extrapolating (incorrectly) to the population level.

This was a civil case, not a criminal one.

Full marks.

But had anyone said different?

It was not from going through a red light, riding on the
pavement, lack of front brake, "riding furiously" or any other
sin that every cyclist is supposed to be guilty of. He
attempted to avoid but failed.

The method of "avoidance" he chose was inappropriate. Blasting
on an air-horn doesn't make a collision less likely
Ā*or less dangerous. Braking hard does.

I agree. Attending to a noise maker increases the vehicle
operator's workload (adequately demonstrated in numerous Youtube
videos). The only usefulness of noise to alert someone
Ā*is when it is done with enough separation in time and distance
Ā*for them to look, realise the situation and calmly make a course
alteration.

Perhaps some people have the idea that if they give a blast right
on top of the recipient, it gives them a "lesson" and they won't
do it again. Unlikely. And there are thousands out there that
haven't had the "lesson". It might make the hooter feel better
but it won't stop someone else doing it. Best to take a
fatalistic view.

I have found that when approaching somebody stepping out without
looking it is best for them to continue in their oblivion. The
worst thing is if they suddenly look up and notice because it
makes them unpredictable.

As you may remember, I have long advocated the banning of
car-horns, bicycle bells and all similar sorts of noise-makers
(ememgerncy service two-tones an obvious exception).

They are rarely of any real productive use to anyone and are a
considerable source of noise nuisance.

Just yesterday, I slowed down, moved to the crown of the road
whilst indicating left and turned left into my driveway. The
female driver behind me must have felt inconvenienced by this. She
was following too close (thereby forcing me to slow even more
than usual in order to fursther reduce the risk of her T-boning
me as I turned and felt the need to sound her horn as she
eventually passed me (I was on the drive by then).

Merely changing direction without changing speed (downward)

He did slow down.

I didn't see the report of that.

is fraught with risk because the cyclist cannot know what the
reaction of the victim will be. The cyclist assumed that the
pedestrian would not try to get out of the way. He was wrong
in that and wrong in not attempting to avoid her by simply
stopping.

Not necessarily. If a driver pulls out and presents a 16ft long
wall in front of you, braking is the only option - if only to
reduce speed of impact. But even an unpredictable pedestrian
has a maximum radius of travel in a given time. Braking takes
longer than tracking round and getting beyond the point where
paths cross: it is better to avoid than to minimise impact. One
or other or a combination of both? It is not possible to sit at
a computer and decide on the best strategy.

Braking is always a part of the best strategy.

Often it can be. Up to now you have have used the word 'stopping'.

The words are synonyms.

Not in the slightest.

If we're lucky, that is. If we're unlucky, we run out of space before
managing to brake to a necessary halt.

About 10 years ago I was driving along an NSL country road. I noticed a
vehicle waiting at a t-junction so I lifted and covered the brake.
Had it pulled out when I first saw it there would have been plenty of
time but it did a Duke of Edinburgh on me.

The ABS was doing its stuff, giving me moments to decide whether to aim
for the driver's door or the wheels. Fortunately, the vehicle stopped
before it was halfway across the road. The other carriageway was clear
so I released the brake and skirted round.

Without that opportunity I have no idea whether my car would have
stopped short or given the other a 5mph kiss.

If you think "a necessary halt" is better than skirting round, when the
opportunity exist, then I will leave it between you and your
insurance company.


Stop when necessary.


You're backtracking nicely.


If that even appeared to be the case, I would have phrased my
response(s) wrongly.

I'll re-word for absolute clarity: never direct a vehicle - any vehicle
- at a nearby human being at normal travelling speed. Operate the brakes
and be prepared to stop. Do not assume that you can tell what the
pedestrian will do, particularly with respect to the direction (if any)
they take out of your path.
Ads
  #52  
Old June 24th 19, 05:40 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Jester
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,727
Default So what about his much-vaunted household contents insurance?

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 1:02:07 AM UTC+1, JNugent wrote:
On 23/06/2019 21:48, Simon Jester wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 7:47:40 PM UTC+1, JNugent wrote:

You are tilting at imaginary windmills. It has been well-reported that
the victim was held by the court to be 50% responsible for her own
misfortune. It's no longer an issue.


You are the one who brought up motor insurance settlements.
If both parties were equally at fault who gets paid?


The one bringing the action, of course. Who else?


As you pointed out, motor insurance claims are decided by the insurance companies out of court.
Now please answer the question. I believe "Knock for Knock" is the correct term.


The court has yet to decide on the amount of compensation and the amount
for (the victim's) legal fees. She will get 50% of the damages she would
otherwise have received had she not been 50% responsible for her own
losses and injuries. I'm not so sure about the legal fees, but it looks
as though the order will be for 100% of the victim's legal fees, hence
the wilder estimates of Ā£100,000.


Zzzzzzzzzz.


Bear in mind 'The Courts' found Barry George guilty of the Jill Dando murder.


And?

Does that mean that no court ever gets it right?

Be on notice that there may be a supplementary question if the answer is
"Yes".


It means the court sometimes gets it wrong, as in this case.


We are repeatedly told that cyclists are always insured via their mum's
Prudential payments


And immediately lost the argument.


You lost it a good few lines back.


I assume this means you can supply evidence to support your claim about The Man From The Pru.



  #53  
Old June 24th 19, 06:51 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
jnugent
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,574
Default So what about his much-vaunted household contents insurance?

On 24/06/2019 17:40, Simon Jester wrote:
On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 1:02:07 AM UTC+1, JNugent wrote:
On 23/06/2019 21:48, Simon Jester wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 7:47:40 PM UTC+1, JNugent wrote:

You are tilting at imaginary windmills. It has been well-reported that
the victim was held by the court to be 50% responsible for her own
misfortune. It's no longer an issue.

You are the one who brought up motor insurance settlements.
If both parties were equally at fault who gets paid?


The one bringing the action, of course. Who else?


As you pointed out, motor insurance claims are decided by the insurance companies out of court.
Now please answer the question. I believe "Knock for Knock" is the correct term.


The court has yet to decide on the amount of compensation and the amount
for (the victim's) legal fees. She will get 50% of the damages she would
otherwise have received had she not been 50% responsible for her own
losses and injuries. I'm not so sure about the legal fees, but it looks
as though the order will be for 100% of the victim's legal fees, hence
the wilder estimates of Ā£100,000.

Zzzzzzzzzz.


Bear in mind 'The Courts' found Barry George guilty of the Jill Dando murder.


And?

Does that mean that no court ever gets it right?

Be on notice that there may be a supplementary question if the answer is
"Yes".


It means the court sometimes gets it wrong, as in this case.


Prove that the court got it wrong.

Did the plaintiff advertise for random strangers to commit perjury on
her behalf?

Did she bung the judge a few bob?

Or is your objection based on a belief that cyclists must be allowed to
do as they like and certainly not have to give way to a pedestrian?


We are repeatedly told that cyclists are always insured via their mum's
Prudential payments


And immediately lost the argument.


You lost it a good few lines back.


I assume this means you can supply evidence to support your claim about The Man From The Pru.


Google Groups is your friend.

Search for the strings "household insurance", "domestic insurance" and
"contents insurance" in uk.rec.cycling. That should get you started.

If you are trying to assert that no-one has ever claimed here that most,
if not all, cyclists are covered against the injuries or losses they
cause to others, you know you are fibbing.
  #54  
Old June 24th 19, 07:02 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
jnugent
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,574
Default So what about his much-vaunted household contents insurance?

On 24/06/2019 18:51, JNugent wrote:
On 24/06/2019 17:40, Simon Jester wrote:
On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 1:02:07 AM UTC+1, JNugent wrote:
On 23/06/2019 21:48, Simon Jester wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 7:47:40 PM UTC+1, JNugent wrote:

You are tilting at imaginary windmills. It has been well-reported that
the victim was held by the court to be 50% responsible for her own
misfortune. It's no longer an issue.

You are the one who brought up motor insurance settlements.
If both parties were equally at fault who gets paid?

The one bringing the action, of course. Who else?


As you pointed out, motor insurance claims are decided by the
insurance companies out of court.
Now please answer the question. I believe "Knock for Knock" is the
correct term.


The court has yet to decide on the amount of compensation and the
amount
for (the victim's) legal fees. She will get 50% of the damages she
would
otherwise have received had she not been 50% responsible for her own
losses and injuries. I'm not so sure about the legal fees, but it
looks
as though the order will be for 100% of the victim's legal fees, hence
the wilder estimates of Ā£100,000.

Zzzzzzzzzz.

Bear in mind 'The Courts' found Barry George guilty of the Jill
Dando murder.

And?

Does that mean that no court ever gets it right?

Be on notice that there may be a supplementary question if the answer is
"Yes".


It means the court sometimes gets it wrong, as in this case.


Prove that the court got it wrong.

Did the plaintiff advertise for random strangers to commit perjury on
her behalf?

Did she bung the judge a few bob?

Or is your objection based on a belief that cyclists must be allowed to
do as they like and certainly not have to give way to a pedestrian?


We are repeatedly told that cyclists are always insured via their
mum's
Prudential payments

And immediately lost the argument.

You lost it a good few lines back.


I assume this means you can supply evidence to support your claim
about The Man From The Pru.


Google Groups is your friend.

Search for the strings "household insurance", "domestic insurance" and
"contents insurance" in uk.rec.cycling. That should get you started.

If you are trying to assert that no-one has ever claimed here that most,
if not all, cyclists are covered against the injuries or losses they
cause to others, you know you are fibbing.


PS: You won't bother, so here's the Google groups return on "contents
insurance":

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/uk.rec.cycling/%22contents$20insurance%22;context-place=forum/uk.rec.cycling

[623 posts as I type]

And on "home insurance":

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/uk.rec.cycling/%22home$20insurance%22;context-place=searchin/uk.rec.cycling/%22contents$20insurance%22

[350 posts]

Then there's "domestic insurance" (yes, there are a couple):

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/uk.rec.cycling/%22domestic$20insurance%22;context-place=searchin/uk.rec.cycling/%22home$20insurance%22

And there's always "household insurance":

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/uk.rec.cycling/%22household$20insurance%22;context-place=searchin/uk.rec.cycling/%22domestic$20insurance%22

[471 posts in uk.rec.cycling]
  #55  
Old June 24th 19, 07:40 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
TMS320
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,875
Default So what about his much-vaunted household contents insurance?

On 24/06/2019 11:38, JNugent wrote:
On 24/06/2019 09:20, TMS320 wrote:
On 23/06/2019 19:36, JNugent wrote:
On 23/06/2019 17:03, TMS320 wrote:
On 23/06/2019 00:33, JNugent wrote:
On 23/06/2019 00:14, TMS320 wrote:
On 22/06/2019 20:38, JNugent wrote:
On 22/06/2019 16:15, TMS320 wrote:
On 22/06/2019 13:39, JNugent wrote:
On 22/06/2019 12:55, TMS320 wrote:
On 22/06/2019 01:00, JNugent wrote:
To say nothing of his fridge-freezer policy?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/21/cyclist-crashed-into-woman-mobile-phone-pay-compensation-london






QUOTE: Hazeldean [the cyclist who ran down a pedestrian]
Ā*... said he was ā€œreelingā€ from a verdict that would leave
him bankrupt. In a statement he said: ā€œI am of course deeply
disappointed with the outcome ā€¦ and concerned by the
precedent that it might set for other cyclists. ENDQUOTE

But surely any court decision which reinforces and emphasises
the need for caution and restraint is good for
society in general?

Yes, drivers should not feel smug when they kill or injure
Ā*5800 pedestrians a year.

Who is "they"?

OK, drivers should not feel they have some sense of superiority
over this one cyclist.

I have never killed or injured anyone. Perhaps you have and are
extrapolating (incorrectly) to the population level.

This was a civil case, not a criminal one.

Full marks.

But had anyone said different?

It was not from going through a red light, riding on the
pavement, lack of front brake, "riding furiously" or any other
sin that every cyclist is supposed to be guilty of. He
attempted to avoid but failed.

The method of "avoidance" he chose was inappropriate. Blasting
on an air-horn doesn't make a collision less likely
Ā*or less dangerous. Braking hard does.

I agree. Attending to a noise maker increases the vehicle
operator's workload (adequately demonstrated in numerous Youtube
videos). The only usefulness of noise to alert someone
Ā*is when it is done with enough separation in time and distance
Ā*for them to look, realise the situation and calmly make a
course alteration.

Perhaps some people have the idea that if they give a blast
right on top of the recipient, it gives them a "lesson" and they
won't do it again. Unlikely. And there are thousands out there
that haven't had the "lesson". It might make the hooter feel
better but it won't stop someone else doing it. Best to take a
fatalistic view.

I have found that when approaching somebody stepping out without
looking it is best for them to continue in their oblivion. The
worst thing is if they suddenly look up and notice because it
makes them unpredictable.

As you may remember, I have long advocated the banning of
car-horns, bicycle bells and all similar sorts of noise-makers
(ememgerncy service two-tones an obvious exception).

They are rarely of any real productive use to anyone and are a
considerable source of noise nuisance.

Just yesterday, I slowed down, moved to the crown of the road
whilst indicating left and turned left into my driveway. The
female driver behind me must have felt inconvenienced by this.
She was following too close (thereby forcing me to slow even more
than usual in order to fursther reduce the risk of her T-boning
me as I turned and felt the need to sound her horn as she
eventually passed me (I was on the drive by then).

Merely changing direction without changing speed (downward)

He did slow down.

I didn't see the report of that.

is fraught with risk because the cyclist cannot know what the
reaction of the victim will be. The cyclist assumed that the
pedestrian would not try to get out of the way. He was wrong
in that and wrong in not attempting to avoid her by simply
stopping.

Not necessarily. If a driver pulls out and presents a 16ft long
wall in front of you, braking is the only option - if only to
reduce speed of impact. But even an unpredictable pedestrian
has a maximum radius of travel in a given time. Braking takes
longer than tracking round and getting beyond the point where
paths cross: it is better to avoid than to minimise impact. One
or other or a combination of both? It is not possible to sit at
a computer and decide on the best strategy.

Braking is always a part of the best strategy.

Often it can be. Up to now you have have used the word 'stopping'.

The words are synonyms.

Not in the slightest.

If we're lucky, that is. If we're unlucky, we run out of space before
managing to brake to a necessary halt.

About 10 years ago I was driving along an NSL country road. I noticed a
vehicle waiting at a t-junction so I lifted and covered the brake.
Had it pulled out when I first saw it there would have been plenty of
time but it did a Duke of Edinburgh on me.

The ABS was doing its stuff, giving me moments to decide whether to aim
for the driver's door or the wheels. Fortunately, the vehicle stopped
before it was halfway across the road. The other carriageway was clear
so I released the brake and skirted round.

Without that opportunity I have no idea whether my car would have
stopped short or given the other a 5mph kiss.

If you think "a necessary halt" is better than skirting round, when the
opportunity exist, then I will leave it between you and your
insurance company.

Stop when necessary.


You're backtracking nicely.


If that even appeared to be the case, I would have phrased my
response(s) wrongly.

I'll re-word for absolute clarity: never direct a vehicle - any vehicle
- at a nearby human being at normal travelling speed. Operate the brakes
and be prepared to stop. Do not assume that you can tell what the
pedestrian will do, particularly with respect to the direction (if any)
they take out of your path.


So what's new?

This is not "simply stopping" as written earlier. I will repeat what I
said earlier, it is not possible to sit at a computer and decide on the
right strategy for any eventuality. You obviously like to think you know
better.

Here is some advice for you. Concentrate on your responsibilities when
you command a dangerous vehicle; you are not immune from the laws of
statistics; and you possess no knowledge or skill that any other
experienced road user does not have. You are not going to change the
world. Mind your own business about anything that does not affect you.

  #56  
Old June 24th 19, 07:48 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Jester
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,727
Default So what about his much-vaunted household contents insurance?

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 6:51:58 PM UTC+1, JNugent wrote:
On 24/06/2019 17:40, Simon Jester wrote:
On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 1:02:07 AM UTC+1, JNugent wrote:
On 23/06/2019 21:48, Simon Jester wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 7:47:40 PM UTC+1, JNugent wrote:

You are tilting at imaginary windmills. It has been well-reported that
the victim was held by the court to be 50% responsible for her own
misfortune. It's no longer an issue.

You are the one who brought up motor insurance settlements.
If both parties were equally at fault who gets paid?

The one bringing the action, of course. Who else?


As you pointed out, motor insurance claims are decided by the insurance companies out of court.
Now please answer the question. I believe "Knock for Knock" is the correct term.


Why did you not answer this?



The court has yet to decide on the amount of compensation and the amount
for (the victim's) legal fees. She will get 50% of the damages she would
otherwise have received had she not been 50% responsible for her own
losses and injuries. I'm not so sure about the legal fees, but it looks
as though the order will be for 100% of the victim's legal fees, hence
the wilder estimates of Ā£100,000.

Zzzzzzzzzz.

Bear in mind 'The Courts' found Barry George guilty of the Jill Dando murder.

And?

Does that mean that no court ever gets it right?

Be on notice that there may be a supplementary question if the answer is
"Yes".


It means the court sometimes gets it wrong, as in this case.


Prove that the court got it wrong.


The burden of proof is on you.


Did the plaintiff advertise for random strangers to commit perjury on
her behalf?

Did she bung the judge a few bob?

Or is your objection based on a belief that cyclists must be allowed to
do as they like and certainly not have to give way to a pedestrian?


We are repeatedly told that cyclists are always insured via their mum's
Prudential payments

And immediately lost the argument.

You lost it a good few lines back.


I assume this means you can supply evidence to support your claim about The Man From The Pru.


Google Groups is your friend.

Search for the strings "household insurance", "domestic insurance" and
"contents insurance" in uk.rec.cycling. That should get you started.

If you are trying to assert that no-one has ever claimed here that most,
if not all, cyclists are covered against the injuries or losses they
cause to others, you know you are fibbing.


You said
"We are repeatedly told that cyclists are always insured via their mum's Prudential payments"
All you have to do is provide evidence to support this claim or admit you are wrong and apologise to the group.


  #57  
Old June 24th 19, 08:20 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Peter Parry
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,164
Default So what about his much-vaunted household contents insurance?

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 09:40:44 -0700 (PDT), Simon Jester
wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 1:02:07 AM UTC+1, JNugent wrote:
On 23/06/2019 21:48, Simon Jester wrote:




It means the court sometimes gets it wrong, as in this case.


There is no indication they got it wrong in this case. The decision
was in line with many similar judgments in the past. Had it not been
for the action of the cyclist (over several years) causing costs to
spiral upwards no one would have taken any notice of the case.

  #58  
Old June 24th 19, 08:21 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
TMS320
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,875
Default So what about his much-vaunted household contents insurance?

On 23/06/2019 17:37, Simon Jester wrote:
On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 12:39:55 PM UTC+1, Mr Pounder Esquire
wrote:

When I drive I notice pedestrians and I take care about the
unexpected. It's called observation.


When I cycle I notice pedestrians will give way to cars even when the
pedestrian has priority but will walk into the path of a cycle even
when the cyclist has priority.


Definitely. If I see a pedestrian wandering across without a care it's a
good sign that there isn't a car on my tail.

  #59  
Old June 24th 19, 08:40 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Jester
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,727
Default So what about his much-vaunted household contents insurance?

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 8:21:24 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:
On 23/06/2019 17:37, Simon Jester wrote:
On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 12:39:55 PM UTC+1, Mr Pounder Esquire
wrote:

When I drive I notice pedestrians and I take care about the
unexpected. It's called observation.


When I cycle I notice pedestrians will give way to cars even when the
pedestrian has priority but will walk into the path of a cycle even
when the cyclist has priority.


Definitely. If I see a pedestrian wandering across without a care it's a
good sign that there isn't a car on my tail.


Back in the good old days of zebra crossings I often encountered the situation where I stop for pedestrians only to be overtaken by a car. Motorists seem to 'think' cyclists MUST be immediately passed and safety is a secondary consideration.
  #60  
Old June 24th 19, 09:03 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Jester
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,727
Default So what about his much-vaunted household contents insurance?

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 8:20:55 PM UTC+1, Peter Parry wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 09:40:44 -0700 (PDT), Simon Jester
wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 1:02:07 AM UTC+1, JNugent wrote:
On 23/06/2019 21:48, Simon Jester wrote:




It means the court sometimes gets it wrong, as in this case.


There is no indication they got it wrong in this case. The decision
was in line with many similar judgments in the past. Had it not been
for the action of the cyclist (over several years) causing costs to
spiral upwards no one would have taken any notice of the case.


Can you provide evidence for this claim?
You have stated the cyclist in this wrongful lawsuit has committed numerous similar offences over "several years".

 




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