Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing

Mrcheerful wrote:
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...
Tris wrote:
In post "Mrcheerful"
wrote:

Tris wrote:
In post "Mrcheerful"
wrote:

definition of kill: Cause the death of (a person, animal, or
other living thing).

The cyclist caused the death of the pedestrian, therefore he
killed him.

... but he wasn't held responsible for the death and, therefore,
absolved of all blame.

There, that's the whole story, not just the bit you wish to spin.

"Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing"
Was he racing? Check
Was he a cyclist? Check
Did he cause the death of someone? Check
Was that someone a pedestrian? Check
Did it occur at a crossing? Check

Please explain which bit of the above I applied spin to?

And repeat myself yet again? I guess I'll have to settle for you,
at least, no longer accusing the cyclist for being responsible for
the pedestrians death.

Maybe before calling a cyclist a "killer" you should be mindful of
the difference between a cyclist involved in a death for which they
were responsible and one for which they were not - but then again,
maybe you won't.

It's all about being fair really, but anyway, que sera, sera.

the cyclist is a killer, he killed someone, that fact is not in
dispute.

It is being plainly disputed. You are wrong.

How? The cyclist caused the death of another human, the cyclist
killed him, how is that in dispute by any rational person?

A killer is not the same as a murderer.
If someone kills someone then they can rightly be called a killer.

Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
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the cyclist travelling too fast for the conditions would have
caused his own death, whether he hit a person or a bridge
support.

Interesting position. So if a pedestrian wanders onto the
Hockenheim circuit during a race and is struck by Michael
Shumacher's car, that accident is the driver's fault for going too
fast?

Are we talking about blame? or killing someone?
The subject is a racing cyclist on the public highway. The cyclist
killed a pedestrian at a crossing point while racing. Which bit of
that is hard to understand?

The public highways had been closed by lawful order, so that the
race could be safely staged. Like they do on the Isle of Man for
the TT races. So let's try again, and see if the penny drops:

Conor Cummins is riding his 1,000cc ZX10 racing motorcycle at 130mph
along the narrow Manx roads approaching Greeba Bridge, when a
pedestrian steps out in directly front of him. The pedestrian dies
as a result of the collision.
You are saying that this would be the rider's fault, because he was
travelling too fast for the conditions?

the rider would bear the responsibility for the death, yes. Who
else is directly involved?

I would say the pedestrian is solely responsible, if he has defied a
proper arrangement of safety barriers, warning & marshals. If the
arrangements were not properly made and he wandered onto the
closed-for-racing road without realising the hazard, I would say the
organisers are responsible. I wouldn't blame the rider/driver at
all, in these circumstances.

yet the rider would have killed the pedestrian.

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:06:48 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan"
wrote:


"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...

the cyclist travelling too fast for the conditions would have
caused his own death, whether he hit a person or a bridge support.

Interesting position. So if a pedestrian wanders onto the
Hockenheim circuit during a race and is struck by Michael
Shumacher's car, that accident is the driver's fault for going too
fast?

Are we talking about blame? or killing someone?
The subject is a racing cyclist on the public highway. The cyclist
killed a pedestrian at a crossing point while racing. Which bit of
that is hard to understand?

The public highways had been closed by lawful order, so that the race
could be safely staged. Like they do on the Isle of Man for the TT
races. So let's try again, and see if the penny drops:

Conor Cummins is riding his 1,000cc ZX10 racing motorcycle at 130mph
along the narrow Manx roads approaching Greeba Bridge, when a
pedestrian steps out in directly front of him. The pedestrian dies
as a result of the collision.
You are saying that this would be the rider's fault, because he was
travelling too fast for the conditions?

the rider would bear the responsibility for the death, yes. Who else is
directly involved?

I would say the pedestrian is solely responsible, if he has defied a proper
arrangement of safety barriers, warning & marshals. If the arrangements
were not properly made and he wandered onto the closed-for-racing road
without realising the hazard, I would say the organisers are responsible. I
wouldn't blame the rider/driver at all, in these circumstances.

Certainly in a closed road event there is a decent expectation that
you don't have to watch out for pedestrians or other traffic, that is
kind of implied by the definition of closed road.

Guy
--
Guy Chapman, http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
The usenet price promise: all opinions are guaranteed
to be worth at least what you paid for them.

On Mar 31, 11:02*pm, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote:
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:06:48 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan"
wrote:











"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...

the cyclist travelling too fast for the conditions would have
caused his own death, whether he hit a person or a bridge support.

Interesting position. *So if a pedestrian wanders onto the
Hockenheim circuit during a race and is struck by Michael
Shumacher's car, that accident is the driver's fault for going too
fast?

Are we talking about blame? or killing someone?
The subject is a racing cyclist on the public highway. *The cyclist
killed a pedestrian at a crossing point while racing. *Which bit of
that is hard to understand?

The public highways had been closed by lawful order, so that the race
could be safely staged. * Like they do on the Isle of Man for the TT
races. * *So let's try again, and see if the penny drops:

Conor Cummins is riding his 1,000cc ZX10 racing motorcycle at 130mph
along the narrow Manx roads approaching Greeba Bridge, when a
pedestrian steps out in directly front of him. *The pedestrian dies
as a result of the collision.
You are saying that this would be the rider's fault, because he was
travelling too fast for the conditions?

the rider would bear the responsibility for the death, yes. *Who else is
directly involved?

I would say the pedestrian is solely responsible, if he has defied a proper
arrangement of safety barriers, warning & marshals. * If the arrangements
were not properly made and he wandered onto the closed-for-racing road
without realising the hazard, I would say the organisers are responsible.. *I
wouldn't blame the rider/driver at all, in these circumstances.

Certainly in a closed road event there is a decent expectation that
you don't have to watch out for pedestrians or other traffic, that is
kind of implied by the definition of closed road.

This was not a BCF sanctioned event. The organisers do not have the
experience or backing of an organisation of racing cyclists. They're
playing at it and this should not reflect on organised cycle racing.

On Mar 31, 8:33*pm, "Mrcheerful" wrote:
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...
Tris wrote:
In post "Mrcheerful"
wrote:

Tris wrote:
In post "Mrcheerful"
wrote:

definition of kill: Cause the death of (a person, animal, or
other living thing).

The cyclist caused the death of the pedestrian, therefore he
killed him.

... but he wasn't held responsible for the death and, therefore,
absolved of all blame.

There, that's the whole story, not just the bit you wish to spin.

"Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing"
Was he racing? *Check
Was he a cyclist? *Check
Did he cause the death of someone? *Check
Was that someone a pedestrian? *Check
Did it occur at a crossing? *Check

Please explain which bit of the above I applied spin to?

And repeat myself yet again? I guess I'll have to settle for you, at
least, no longer accusing the cyclist for being responsible for the
pedestrians death.

Maybe before calling a cyclist a "killer" you should be mindful of
the difference between a cyclist involved in a death for which they
were responsible and one for which they were not - but then again,
maybe you won't.

It's all about being fair really, but anyway, que sera, sera.

the cyclist is a killer, he killed someone, that fact is not in
dispute.

It is being plainly disputed. * You are wrong.

How? *The cyclist

No, triathlete!
caused the death of another human, the cyclist killed him,
how is that in dispute by any rational person?

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:06:48 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan"
wrote:


"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...

the cyclist travelling too fast for the conditions would have
caused his own death, whether he hit a person or a bridge
support.

Interesting position. So if a pedestrian wanders onto the
Hockenheim circuit during a race and is struck by Michael
Shumacher's car, that accident is the driver's fault for going
too fast?

Are we talking about blame? or killing someone?
The subject is a racing cyclist on the public highway. The
cyclist killed a pedestrian at a crossing point while racing.
Which bit of that is hard to understand?

The public highways had been closed by lawful order, so that the
race could be safely staged. Like they do on the Isle of Man for
the TT races. So let's try again, and see if the penny drops:

Conor Cummins is riding his 1,000cc ZX10 racing motorcycle at
130mph along the narrow Manx roads approaching Greeba Bridge, when
a pedestrian steps out in directly front of him. The pedestrian
dies as a result of the collision.
You are saying that this would be the rider's fault, because he was
travelling too fast for the conditions?

the rider would bear the responsibility for the death, yes. Who
else is directly involved?

I would say the pedestrian is solely responsible, if he has defied a
proper arrangement of safety barriers, warning & marshals. If the
arrangements were not properly made and he wandered onto the
closed-for-racing road without realising the hazard, I would say the
organisers are responsible. I wouldn't blame the rider/driver at
all, in these circumstances.

Certainly in a closed road event there is a decent expectation that
you don't have to watch out for pedestrians or other traffic, that is
kind of implied by the definition of closed road.

Guy

An expectation, but the person on the vehicle/cycle would still be the one
that kills the pedestrian.

the incident (with the cyclist) was not on closed roads (or there would not
have been a 'managed' pedestrian crossing.)

On Mar 31, 11:13*pm, "Mrcheerful" wrote:
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:









On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:06:48 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan"
wrote:

"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...

the cyclist travelling too fast for the conditions would have
caused his own death, whether he hit a person or a bridge
support.

Interesting position. *So if a pedestrian wanders onto the
Hockenheim circuit during a race and is struck by Michael
Shumacher's car, that accident is the driver's fault for going
too fast?

Are we talking about blame? or killing someone?
The subject is a racing cyclist on the public highway. *The
cyclist killed a pedestrian at a crossing point while racing.
Which bit of that is hard to understand?

The public highways had been closed by lawful order, so that the
race could be safely staged. * Like they do on the Isle of Man for
the TT races. * *So let's try again, and see if the penny drops:

Conor Cummins is riding his 1,000cc ZX10 racing motorcycle at
130mph along the narrow Manx roads approaching Greeba Bridge, when
a pedestrian steps out in directly front of him. *The pedestrian
dies as a result of the collision.
You are saying that this would be the rider's fault, because he was
travelling too fast for the conditions?

the rider would bear the responsibility for the death, yes. *Who
else is directly involved?

I would say the pedestrian is solely responsible, if he has defied a
proper arrangement of safety barriers, warning & marshals. * If the
arrangements were not properly made and he wandered onto the
closed-for-racing road without realising the hazard, I would say the
organisers are responsible. *I wouldn't blame the rider/driver at
all, in these circumstances.

Certainly in a closed road event there is a decent expectation that
you don't have to watch out for pedestrians or other traffic, that is
kind of implied by the definition of closed road.

Guy

An expectation, but the person on the vehicle/cycle would still be the one
that kills the pedestrian.

You would have to show greater intent on the part of the competitor.
The old man's intent is unknown, he may be more to blame than anyone.
Is there any reason he should have thought there was no traffic on the
road? Would he have done the same in front of a taxi? Was he in pain
or on some sort of medication which would deteriorate his ability to
make a good assesment of risk? The man could have been suicidal and
had a grudge against cyclists because his wife ran away with one
40years ago. Is that what happened to you, MrCheerless?


the incident (with the cyclist) *was not on closed roads (or there would not
have been a 'managed' pedestrian crossing.)

Yes, a managed crossing is the norm when roads are closed for races.

"Phil W Lee" wrote in message
...
"Zapp Brannigan" considered Sat, 31 Mar 2012
22:06:48 +0100 the perfect time to write:


"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
...

the cyclist travelling too fast for the conditions would have
caused his own death, whether he hit a person or a bridge support.

Interesting position. So if a pedestrian wanders onto the
Hockenheim circuit during a race and is struck by Michael
Shumacher's car, that accident is the driver's fault for going too
fast?

Are we talking about blame? or killing someone?
The subject is a racing cyclist on the public highway. The cyclist
killed a pedestrian at a crossing point while racing. Which bit of
that is hard to understand?

The public highways had been closed by lawful order, so that the race
could be safely staged. Like they do on the Isle of Man for the TT
races. So let's try again, and see if the penny drops:

Conor Cummins is riding his 1,000cc ZX10 racing motorcycle at 130mph
along the narrow Manx roads approaching Greeba Bridge, when a
pedestrian steps out in directly front of him. The pedestrian dies
as a result of the collision.
You are saying that this would be the rider's fault, because he was
travelling too fast for the conditions?

the rider would bear the responsibility for the death, yes. Who else is
directly involved?

I would say the pedestrian is solely responsible, if he has defied a
proper
arrangement of safety barriers, warning & marshals. If the arrangements
were not properly made and he wandered onto the closed-for-racing road
without realising the hazard, I would say the organisers are responsible.
I
wouldn't blame the rider/driver at all, in these circumstances.

The rider may even have a claim against the estate of the trespasser
for any loss or injury they may suffer in such a collision.

quite possinly, but the rider would have killed the pedestrian. (which is
something that seems hard to understand for some people)

On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 21:47:42 +0100, Mrcheerful wrote:

Organisers of the London Triathlon face a huge fine after a
pensioner was killed by a cyclist on the racecourse.

Wow! For the first time in living memory, one of the baying pack have
found a case where a pedestrian was actually killed by a cyclist
racing on the roads.

In their glee, they have to overlook the fact that the roads in
question were closed, of course.

I guess the outcome of this is that we can look forward to F1 races
such as Monaco. Montreal, Hockenheim etc being conducted at speeds
such that the drivers can stop in the distance they can see is clear.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

On Sun, 1 Apr 2012 08:25:12 +0000 (UTC), Ian Smith
wrote:

snip


I guess the outcome of this is that we can look forward to F1 races
such as Monaco. Montreal, Hockenheim etc being conducted at speeds
such that the drivers can stop in the distance they can see is clear.


You are as ever quite correct: Monaco. Montreal, Hockenheim etc are quite
comparable to a pack of ****wits on pushbikes. And look at the similar public
interest.