c'mon Johan, tell us how you really feel

Carl Sundquist wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
Wrong Jonathan - France for all it's size relative to other European
countries isn't that big a place and the athletic talent pool is
necessarily limited.

And being football crazy it pays the average athletically inclined
Frenchman to follow a career path in Football and not Cycling.


So how does that account for 2 different winners in a sport that is a
red-headed stepchild in the USA?

easy. the americans just "wanted it more"
I think one explanation, that I've read, for the reason for
American (and Irish too with Roche) tour winners is this:
if you are bad ass enough to move to a strange foreign country,
and pursue a sport with little national financial investment,
then you are the tough resilient kinda rider that can succeed in the
sport.
The French just kinda "end up" pros, because they are good, it wasn't a

"rough road" so to speak, so = they are lazy.
The french have had some stylish riders with panache, which is all that
matters - Durand, Dojwa, Lino, Virenque, LeBlanc, all good riders.
Winning the tour is, in my opinion, more about the genetic and doping
freakshow aspects of the sport - who can get a crit of 60, put out 500
watts over mountain passes and stuff like that. it isn't really about
racing anymore, as far as the GC goes, I mean who really "raced"
against Armstrong the last 5 years? I think Zulle was the last rider to
really
even challenge him, in 1999. Ullrich could challenge in the TTs but was
obviously not going to outclimb Armstrong.
If you watch other races, like the Classics, there are tactics and
racing going on - not just
1) win the team TT
2) put two minutes on first mtn top finish
3) put 1-2 more minutes in the TT's
3) maintain and/or enlarge lead until the end
that is the tour the last 5 years, and it sucked.

Tom Kunich wrote:
"benjo maso" wrote in message
...

I've rode several times in France and I have always met French cylists
everywhere. And by the way, how is het possible that thousands of cyclists
are riding around Lake Geneva without passing through France?


I was in Lausanne. Americans use the term "around" to mean the same as
"about". You have to much English in your English.


For example:
"There's Something Around Mary"
"I spoke to Tim Russert around Valerie Plame"

"Tom Kunich" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" wrote in message
l...
"Tom Kunich" wrote in message
ups.com...
Wrong Jonathan - France for all it's size relative to other European
countries isn't that big a place and the athletic talent pool is
necessarily limited.

And being football crazy it pays the average athletically inclined
Frenchman to follow a career path in Football and not Cycling.

That is the real basis of France's poor showings.

That's an intelligent remark, Tom, and I did not read it from Johan
Bruyneel.

And yet you did. He reported the truth - that there aren't any French
racing cyclists that are up to the competition and that's the simple
truth.

The thing that struck me about France was that I didn't see ONE SINGLE
recreational cyclist on a high quality bicycle the entire two weeks
proceeding the Tour de France entry into Paris. I was driving around
secondary and trinary roads all the way to Nice and back and around
Dijon - all good cycling territory - and NO cyclists.

They must have been exhausted from riding all around the country when I
was there.

Well then explain this

In spite of the fact that I'm occasionally replying to the drivel in this
group I have better things to do with my time than explain silly stories
about your friends. Why should I care about their impressions of France when
I have perfectly fine images of te country myself? I really don't care how
much cyclists you did or did not see there.

On 28 Oct 2005 19:41:31 -0700, wrote:


Carl Sundquist wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
Wrong Jonathan - France for all it's size relative to other European
countries isn't that big a place and the athletic talent pool is
necessarily limited.

And being football crazy it pays the average athletically inclined
Frenchman to follow a career path in Football and not Cycling.


So how does that account for 2 different winners in a sport that is a
red-headed stepchild in the USA?

easy. the americans just "wanted it more"
I think one explanation, that I've read, for the reason for
American (and Irish too with Roche) tour winners is this:
if you are bad ass enough to move to a strange foreign country,
and pursue a sport with little national financial investment,
then you are the tough resilient kinda rider that can succeed in the
sport.
The French just kinda "end up" pros, because they are good, it wasn't a

"rough road" so to speak, so = they are lazy.
The french have had some stylish riders with panache, which is all that
matters - Durand, Dojwa, Lino, Virenque, LeBlanc, all good riders.

snip

I was born in France and have been traveling there my whole life. My
mother was born and raised there before coming to the US at age 25. My
whole maternal family lives in France. My mother agrees with me on the
following: France is all about 2 hour lunches, how to knock another
hour off of their grueling 35 hour work week, near-guaranteed
employment (for those who have jobs), more vacation, smoking, strikes,
and more government benefits. I have a cousin there who works 32 hours
per week and complains about it. Her husband is an EMT who works two
12-hour shifts per week. Everyone in my family in France retires at
55.

France is a lovely country but is not about hard work. It's not in the
culture. It's not an environment that is conducive to producing the
hard, hard men that win the TDF. Armstrong is a damn tough SOB who
deserved to win because he worked harder than his competition.

"MyakkaMike" wrote in message
...
On 28 Oct 2005 19:41:31 -0700, wrote:


Carl Sundquist wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
Wrong Jonathan - France for all it's size relative to other European
countries isn't that big a place and the athletic talent pool is
necessarily limited.

And being football crazy it pays the average athletically inclined
Frenchman to follow a career path in Football and not Cycling.


So how does that account for 2 different winners in a sport that is a
red-headed stepchild in the USA?

easy. the americans just "wanted it more"
I think one explanation, that I've read, for the reason for
American (and Irish too with Roche) tour winners is this:
if you are bad ass enough to move to a strange foreign country,
and pursue a sport with little national financial investment,
then you are the tough resilient kinda rider that can succeed in the
sport.
The French just kinda "end up" pros, because they are good, it wasn't a

"rough road" so to speak, so = they are lazy.
The french have had some stylish riders with panache, which is all that
matters - Durand, Dojwa, Lino, Virenque, LeBlanc, all good riders.

snip

I was born in France and have been traveling there my whole life. My
mother was born and raised there before coming to the US at age 25. My
whole maternal family lives in France. My mother agrees with me on the
following: France is all about 2 hour lunches, how to knock another
hour off of their grueling 35 hour work week, near-guaranteed
employment (for those who have jobs), more vacation, smoking, strikes,
and more government benefits. I have a cousin there who works 32 hours
per week and complains about it. Her husband is an EMT who works two
12-hour shifts per week. Everyone in my family in France retires at
55.

France is a lovely country but is not about hard work. It's not in the
culture. It's not an environment that is conducive to producing the
hard, hard men that win the TDF. Armstrong is a damn tough SOB who
deserved to win because he worked harder than his competition.

Don't tell that to Sluis - he likes his own picture of the French losing
because they're the only one's playing fairly.

Tom Kunich wrote:
"MyakkaMike" wrote in message
...

On 28 Oct 2005 19:41:31 -0700, wrote:


Carl Sundquist wrote:

Tom Kunich wrote:

Wrong Jonathan - France for all it's size relative to other European
countries isn't that big a place and the athletic talent pool is
necessarily limited.

And being football crazy it pays the average athletically inclined
Frenchman to follow a career path in Football and not Cycling.


So how does that account for 2 different winners in a sport that is a
red-headed stepchild in the USA?

easy. the americans just "wanted it more"
I think one explanation, that I've read, for the reason for
American (and Irish too with Roche) tour winners is this:
if you are bad ass enough to move to a strange foreign country,
and pursue a sport with little national financial investment,
then you are the tough resilient kinda rider that can succeed in the
sport.
The French just kinda "end up" pros, because they are good, it wasn't a

"rough road" so to speak, so = they are lazy.
The french have had some stylish riders with panache, which is all that
matters - Durand, Dojwa, Lino, Virenque, LeBlanc, all good riders.

snip

I was born in France and have been traveling there my whole life. My
mother was born and raised there before coming to the US at age 25. My
whole maternal family lives in France. My mother agrees with me on the
following: France is all about 2 hour lunches, how to knock another
hour off of their grueling 35 hour work week, near-guaranteed
employment (for those who have jobs), more vacation, smoking, strikes,
and more government benefits. I have a cousin there who works 32 hours
per week and complains about it. Her husband is an EMT who works two
12-hour shifts per week. Everyone in my family in France retires at
55.

France is a lovely country but is not about hard work. It's not in the
culture. It's not an environment that is conducive to producing the
hard, hard men that win the TDF. Armstrong is a damn tough SOB who
deserved to win because he worked harder than his competition.


I think it's also that they don't have to work two jobs and scramble to
pay doctor bills, as health care is universal. That may sound like a
little thing, but i see how many americans scramble to pay bills when
someone gets sick. God help you if you have some low paying minimum wage
job.

That aside, it's kind of funny that the toughest one day race takes
place in france- Paris Roubaix, the most grueling, torturous race in the
most horrendous conditions!

Marlene Blanshay wrote:

I think it's also that they don't have to work two jobs and scramble to
pay doctor bills, as health care is universal. That may sound like a
little thing, but i see how many americans scramble to pay bills when
someone gets sick. God help you if you have some low paying minimum wage
job.

By contrast, Amerikans work twice as hard and pay comparable taxes with
none of that stuff cradle-to-grave stuff. But we've got this great big
cool army, so we don't get ****ed on like France and other socialist
euros. Instead, we get ****ed off.

Choices & priorities. Frankly, as the years go by those euro-pussies are
looking a hell of a lot more comfortable than I.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall

Conservative dictionary:
Judicial Activist: n. A judge who tends to rule against your wishes.

On 10/28/2005 06:58 PM, in article
et, "Tom Kunich"
wrote:

"benjo maso" wrote in message
...

I've rode several times in France and I have always met French cylists
everywhere. And by the way, how is het possible that thousands of cyclists
are riding around Lake Geneva without passing through France?

I was in Lausanne. Americans use the term "around" to mean the same as
"about". You have to much English in your English.


Which makes even less sense, because who says "I saw thousands of riders
cycling about Lake Geneva"?

In this context, this American would use the term "around" to mean the same
as "near", not "about".

You have too little English in your English.



--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [foreword] slash

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:15:38 -0400, Marlene Blanshay
wrote:

Tom Kunich wrote:
"MyakkaMike" wrote in message
...

On 28 Oct 2005 19:41:31 -0700, wrote:


Carl Sundquist wrote:

Tom Kunich wrote:

Wrong Jonathan - France for all it's size relative to other European
countries isn't that big a place and the athletic talent pool is
necessarily limited.

And being football crazy it pays the average athletically inclined
Frenchman to follow a career path in Football and not Cycling.


So how does that account for 2 different winners in a sport that is a
red-headed stepchild in the USA?

easy. the americans just "wanted it more"
I think one explanation, that I've read, for the reason for
American (and Irish too with Roche) tour winners is this:
if you are bad ass enough to move to a strange foreign country,
and pursue a sport with little national financial investment,
then you are the tough resilient kinda rider that can succeed in the
sport.
The French just kinda "end up" pros, because they are good, it wasn't a

"rough road" so to speak, so = they are lazy.
The french have had some stylish riders with panache, which is all that
matters - Durand, Dojwa, Lino, Virenque, LeBlanc, all good riders.

snip

I was born in France and have been traveling there my whole life. My
mother was born and raised there before coming to the US at age 25. My
whole maternal family lives in France. My mother agrees with me on the
following: France is all about 2 hour lunches, how to knock another
hour off of their grueling 35 hour work week, near-guaranteed
employment (for those who have jobs), more vacation, smoking, strikes,
and more government benefits. I have a cousin there who works 32 hours
per week and complains about it. Her husband is an EMT who works two
12-hour shifts per week. Everyone in my family in France retires at
55.

France is a lovely country but is not about hard work. It's not in the
culture. It's not an environment that is conducive to producing the
hard, hard men that win the TDF. Armstrong is a damn tough SOB who
deserved to win because he worked harder than his competition.


I think it's also that they don't have to work two jobs and scramble to
pay doctor bills, as health care is universal. That may sound like a
little thing, but i see how many americans scramble to pay bills when
someone gets sick. God help you if you have some low paying minimum wage
job.

Talk about a non-sequitur! The French haven't won the TDF for 20 years
because of the U.S.'s health care system? So Lance (and LeMond) won 10
TDFs in 20 years because they had to work two jobs and scramble to pay
doctor bills? This is silly.

I don't work two jobs to scramble to pay medical bills. My job (as do
most jobs in the U.S.) includes health insurance. And no, I'm not just
lucky; I worked for it. Anyone can. I had a co-worker who hired into
the company. He was a machinist. After about a year he quit to go to a
company which didn't offer insurance because the work would be easier.
He walked away from health coverage for himself and his family because
he wanted an easier job. Another young co-worker recently hired in,
fresh out of engineering school. He didn't want health insurance, he
wanted to trade it in for more money in his paycheck.

Lack of health insurance doesn't mean one has no coverage. I know a
woman who decided years ago never to work again. She has been playing
the system ever since with disability claims for 'stress' and
'depression'. She recently had a 4-way coronary bypass operation with
an extended recovery in a nursing home (she's not a senior) and didn't
pay one penny. She had no insurance but still got care.

It's not "God help you", it's YOU help you.Some people have ambition
and drive, and others just want it handed to them.

BTW, most minimum wage earners are teenagers living at home. They're
basically earning CD and gas money.

At least one can get a job here if one wants to. The unemployment rate
in the U.S. is 5%. In France it is about 10%, and for people 25 and
under, about 25%.

I think the French system stifles initiative. Why work harder, the
government will just tax it away anyway. I think the U.S. system
rewards initiative much more. People risk their lives to get to the
U.S. to have the opportunity to make something of themselves. I doubt
that France can say the same thing.

I suppose if you think about it, it would be plain. Europeans have won a
great deal more of the Tours than Americans. And Europe on the whole has a
much greater group of cyclists to chose from than the USA.

a country's success in a sport like cycling has everything to do with
how athletes are developed.

that's why a small country like australia can have so many top riders
compared to other counties, they made the investment in the development
of riders.

canada did that in speedskating, even though there are very few people
here who speedskate.

even if cycling isn't a huge sport in the US there's a pretty good
development system in place compared to other countries.