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All's not fair in love and science



 
 
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  #51  
Old May 8th 17, 12:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andrew Chaplin
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Posts: 206
Default All's not fair in love and science

Andre Jute wrote in
:

It's no accident that of all the nations, the least distinguishable are
Australia, Canada and the US.


.... until we open our mouths.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
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  #52  
Old May 8th 17, 02:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default All's not fair in love and science

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 6:51:52 PM UTC-7, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 7 May 2017 15:34:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/7/2017 2:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 7 May 2017 11:53:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/6/2017 11:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


"23 Famous Dropouts Who Turned Out Just Fine"
https://www.buzzfeed.com/ashleyperez/23-famous-dropouts-who-turned-out-just-fine
"8 Hugely Successful People Who Didn't Graduate College"
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/249683

I believe very strongly that there are many people in college who should
not be there, either because they lack the intellectual horsepower, or
because there are other pursuits that would do them and us much more good.

Probably true. The problem is that it's not always obvious until
AFTER they have entered college, that they are unsuited for a college
education. Even if the student is academically deficient, there is
usually an attempt by relatives to "try it for a few semesters and see
if you like it" style of encouragement.

There's also a big problem of motivation. One might assume that
everyone in college is there "to get an education". Far from the case
and it was much worse in the 1960's when the draft was going full
blast. College was where one hid from the draft, found a husband,
fulfilled the expectations of the family, burned some government
program money for minorities, avoided having to go to work, etc...


Yet another problem is guidance counseling in American high schools. At
least around here, guidance counselors get big brownie points if a kid
they counseled gets into a prestige school, and some brownie points if a
kid gets into any college. They barely get a nod if a kid becomes a
machinist, welder, plumber, carpenter, heavy equipment operator. But we
need those guys (and girls). And they deserve more respect.

(For all I know, a counselor may get their salary docked if a kid
becomes an electronic repairman or a bike shop owner.)

So the guidance counselors try to push everyone into college. Needless
to say, the accountability stops there. If the kid flunks out and that
makes him get depressed, turn to drugs and alcohol and enter a life of
crime, the guidance counselor hears no flack.

When I was 17 or 18, I really had no idea what to do with my life. I
was considering fields as disparate as music, graphic arts, science and
more. So I took the initiative to go to the guidance counselor and say
"You've given me all those achievement and aptitude and attitude tests.
What do they show? What should I do?" The guy looked at my test
results and said "It doesn't matter. You'll do fine no matter what you
do," and pushed me out the door.

I'll concede, I did do fine. But I would have felt much better if I
were able to attack the career problem with some competent guidance.

I honestly think guiding young people into appropriate careers would be
one of the best things we could do for society. As it is, when most
people are asked how they like their job, the typical answer "Eh, it's OK."



I worked with a machinist in California who insisted that his son
learn a trade before he went to collage. His theory was that a guy
could always get a job working with his hands no matter how bad the
economy.

Anyway, the son "apprenticed" to a butcher and learned enough that he
(with his father's financing) opened a butcher shop that targeted
those that demanded only the very best and are prepared to pay for it.
He ended up making so much money that he never did go to collage :-)

But I also suspect that personality enters into the equation. After
all, there are people who can, literally, " sell iceboxes to Eskimos"
and others much happier lurking in some dim laboratory developing a
new brand of laundry soap :-)


The electronics business has always been cyclic. So between jobs I would take anything that came along from selling motorcycles to helping to ocean race sailboats to getting a job with a friend installing commercial telephone systems in San Francisco high rises.

I had just finished an interconnect board in the basement telephone room. These things were pretty large one a large tall business center. The telephone people did terrible work. Many of them were beginners without sufficient training. So after I finished the panel I was walking out and my toolbelt caught on a loose wire on another interconnect board and pulled a wire loose.

So I was disgusted with that installation and was straightening some of it up so at least it wasn't a hazard when the door opened and a telephone company instructor walked in with a whole group of trainees. As he passed me he sort of sniffed and said to his group, "That's the kind of work these commercial installers do". Then he took them all over to my installation and holding his hand up to it proclaimed, "Now THIS is the sort of work the telephone company does." Holding back a laugh I crept quietly out. I told my partner upstairs and we both had a good laugh. The difference in those installations were noticeable to a bum off of the street but it was important that the trainees learned the correct way to do it and not for me to make their work look shoddy.
  #53  
Old May 8th 17, 02:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default All's not fair in love and science

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 6:51:54 PM UTC-7, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 07 May 2017 10:47:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 07 May 2017 18:37:05 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote:

On Sat, 06 May 2017 20:47:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 06 May 2017 07:37:23 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

p.s. Here's a pithy analysis I enjoyed greatly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8utmmWoBSBY

The problem is why people go to college. Conventional wisdom suggests
that it's to obtain a diploma, which is considered a guarantee of
success in future employment. This is totally wrong. College was
original where the upper classes sent their sons to receive
instruction in how to act like a proper gentlemen and member of the
upper class. That meant a classical education:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_classical_studies
which included proficiency in ancient Greek and Latin. There were
also classes in history, from the perspective of the elite. Etiquette,
propriety, dueling, dance, proper dress, etc were taught so that they
would know how to act at social events. Overall, such an education
worked well for the intended purpose.

Things started to go astray when members of the GUM (great unwashed
masses) noticed that wealthy children were going to college. They
logically deduced that if they also went to college, they too would
become wealthy. Interchanging cause and effect is a problem among the
GUM.

So, they attended college, paid dearly for the privilege, and were
predictably disappointed with the expected wealth did not magically
materialize upon graduation. Not wishing to admit that they had
screwed up and did not achieve their expected goals, they perpetuated
the myth to other members of the GUM, who promptly repeated the
original logic error. The mistake would have been easily discovered
were it not for the substantial number of sons and daughters of the
wealthy, who continue to attend college.


Given that of the 56 signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence
some 29 had attended collage and 27 had not. So apparently starting a
rebellion doesn't necessarily require a collage education.


Emigration to the colonies was primarily by those who were not doing
very well in European society. If they had the right connections,
joined the proper church, and were popular with the aristocracy, they
stayed in Europe. What the colonies go were the misfits, maladjusted,
greedy, and hot headed day dreamers. Little wonder the colonists were
considered "rabble".


From the Wiki:
The total number of European immigrants to all 13 colonies before 1775
was about 500,000; of these 55,000 were involuntary prisoners. Of the
450,000 or so European arrivals who came voluntarily, Tomlins
estimates that 48% were indentured. About 75% of these were under the
age of 25. The age of adulthood for men was 24 years (not 21); those
over 24 generally came on contracts lasting about 3 years.

It might also be pointed out that California was settled by those who
heeded the cry, "Go West, young man" and reached "the end of the
line".


It is apparent that in the world of Real Politics collage is not
necessarily an advantage :-)


I haven't checked, but I suspect that the sons of the great men of the
American revolution attended college or at least had well placed
tutors.


Probably correct but that didn't effect the fact that "great men"
quite often are great on their own merits not because they went to
collage.

Benjamin Franklin's formal education ended when he was 10 years old.
He went on to become one of the Founding Fathers of the United States.
Franklin was a renowned polymath and a leading author, printer,
political theorist, politician, freemason, postmaster, scientist,
inventor, civic activist, statesman, and diplomat. As a scientist, he
was a major figure in the American Enlightenment and the history of
physics for his discoveries and theories regarding electricity. As an
inventor, he is known for the lightning rod, bifocals, and the
Franklin stove, among other inventions

But I believe that you have missed a significant point in the great
Gentry - GUM debate. One attends a collage, just as one dresses for
dinner, not as a matter of education, but rather because that is
simply what a gentleman does.


Sorry. I thought that this was obvious in my rant and did not need to
be mentioned. At least among Jewish families, college was a
requirement, and failing to graduate was a serious disgrace. We
"value an education" includes having it shoved down one's throat, even
if marginally qualified and rebellious. In my case, I was perfectly
happy to continue working as a mobile radio technician, had it not
been for a combination of family pressure and a draft for the war in
Vietnam. While my self destructive tendencies tended to prefer not
going to college, I was perfectly willing to compromise my principles
in order to stay alive and be disowned by the family. While not the
best reason for going to college, it was sufficient.


I believe that an "education" is/was a much admired trait amongst
certain racial (for want of a better word) groups. The Jewish and
Chinese particularly come to mind. But of course, "My son the
dentist" also makes a very nice living :-)

Just as one does not formally introduce
one's mistress to one's wife.


Yes, that can be a problem. Arranging a menage a trois is best done
in private. However, I don't recall learning that in college, or
having a class on the topic.


They was my point, obscure as it might have been. There are certain
things that one just doesn't learn in collage :-)


The Brits, exiled to foreign lands or not, were still Brits and at one time there were more Irish indentured people in the USA then citizens of Ireland. I don't know if there were upper class families in Ireland that had anything to do with that or not but my grandmother could be traced back to one of those indentured servants. Because an indenture only lasted 3 or 5 years these Irish were commonly worked literally to death. The indenture was in many ways much worse than slavery.

Of the Continental Congress about half of them were uneducated in the British idea of education. They could read, write and think. That was never apparent to the British way of thinking and unless you could speak Latin and speak of Ptolemy you weren't educated.
  #54  
Old May 8th 17, 02:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Default All's not fair in love and science

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 6:49:52 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 7 May 2017 14:02:37 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

Doctors are ethically prohibited from treating immediate
family members, subject to certain exceptions.
http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/...oet1-1205.html
So your friend's daughter at least has an excuse for not
treating her father.


This was not about treating her father. It was about discussing a
medical situation, doing a sanity check, or asking for suggestions as
to what to do next. I can see why treating family members is a bad
idea, but this was a total blackout of any communications involving
medical issues.

My sister is an accountant (among other things), and she does pro
bono tax returns for poor people, which always seemed odd --
endless 1040 EZ forms? But, as it turns out, she does a lot of
returns for illegal immigrants in Sonoma County (grape pickers,
among others), and they have odd issues -- like paying into
our Social Security system. They get a special "look the
other way" number, and just like a roach motel, the money
goes in, but it doesn't come out -- except to current citizen
retirees. And now that Trump is cracking the whip on illegal
immigration, the grape growers are have trouble getting their
grapes picked. The legals won't pick grapes for $16/hr.
https://www.marketplace.org/2017/03/...-farm-wages-go


Employers are required to collect withholding and unemployment
insurance from employees. For illegals, they pay into the system, but
without a social security number and history, they can't pay taxes or
collect benefits. My father owned a lingerie factory in Smog Angeles
and had similar problems. It was common to have 5 or more employees
using the same social security number. I have no idea if they
actually were able to collect on this scheme, or how the various
government agencies managed to untangle the mess.
"IRS Admits It Encourages Illegals To Steal Social Security Numbers
For Taxes"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2016/04/13/irs-admits-it-encourages-illegals-to-steal-social-security-numbers-for-taxes/

An aquaintence runs a local landscaping business. He was criticized
in the papers for not hiring anglo workers or students to do the grunt
work. He wrote a reply, which was printed, indicating that he had
tried to hire anglos and students, but nobody would work for the wages
offered. That was about 10 years ago, long before the current
administration.

A friends son is doing his masters thesis on modeling the US economy
if everything was produced and manufacturered domestically using
domestic labor. It's not done, but the preliminary scribblings I've
read sounded like my worst economic nightmare.

Does your sister do taxes for the rest of the family? I'm just
curious. I know one accountant who refuses to do taxes for his two
sons. His logic is that it's something the kids need to learn while
the dollar amounts are still small, so that they will understand how
taxes work when they begin making more money. My father gave me the
same "advice". I think it worked.


No, she doesn't do returns for the family, and I don't think any of us asked. She did manage my father's finances as he became more demented before his death, but she turned his taxes over to an accountant that she uses. She knows taxes, but she wasn't a tax accountant. I think she did a draft of his last return and then turned it over to her guy to review and final. I do recall that she was horrified by the work that had been done by my Dad's usual accountant, a guy in Los Gatos he had been using for 40-50 years -- and who was a regular at my Dad's poker parties, fellow Rotarian and friend of the family. He was probably getting addled, too, and I kind of wonder why he was still doing tax returns at his age.

I've been doing my son's returns, but that's because his return affects mine because of his meager college fund -- the kiddie tax and all. Next year he's on his own.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #55  
Old May 8th 17, 02:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 4:03:58 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 5:10:24 PM UTC+1, wrote:

There are actually students in UC Berkeley that had to take remedial reading.


This isn't a new problem. Forty years and more ago at a university where I spent a sabbatical from business supposedly teaching economics, what I actually taught was remedial English, and not to poor immigrants, to the children of the anglophone middle classes. The socialists had removed English and math as compulsory subjects from the school curriculum, supposedly because it disadvantaged the children of immigrants, so the state schools sent to the universities children who were horrendously unprepared to understand what one told them or what they read -- when they weren't outright illiterate and innumerate.

Andre Jute
Are we surfing today?


Well, unfortunately I live near where I was born in Oakland and have worked upon occasion on the Berkeley reserve. What I've seen is that they take blacks into college to be on their football team or some other sport who cannot read or write even at a grade school level. This is the Oakland white liberal's way of "helping" blacks. These people live in the foothills while the flats are (or were before the influx if illegal aliens) completely black.. Many blacks who need and deserve to go to college are ignored with the white liberal's intentions of "helping the poor blacks".

Today it is even more important as the latest study shows that UC Berkeley is only accepting some 20% of applicants and even on a scholarship it costs $30,000/yr to feed, cloth and house a student.

From my high school class the majority of blacks were successful while the whites weren't. Today you simply cannot believe the conditions they live under. In order to protect themselves from the black criminals EVERY SINGLE HOME in my old neighborhood has steel bar fences 7-9 feet high with arrowheads on the top of the bars. These fences TOTALLY surround the homes even when the house next door has its own fence. These people can no longer afford the cost of heating and you can see old people sitting in sunshine outside in the mornings if the wind isn't blowing trying to get warm because the only heating they could afford was another blanket. But of course Black Lives Matter can hold protest marches about a cop shooting someone that was shooting at them while 1400 blacks are killed by other blacks for every one of those.

And the liberal whites continue to help those poor black people that cannot lead themselves. I cannot remember one single black mayor of Oakland. And Oakland has some of the most intelligent and moral blacks in the country. But the liberals are working to turn it into another Chicago.
  #56  
Old May 8th 17, 03:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default All's not fair in love and science

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 4:16:12 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 3:51:36 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:

One word: accounting. It's the future.


+1

Another subject that gets you a job anywhere is Human Resources, personnel management.

Andre Jute
Not everyone is a natural for PPE and the Treasury


Only if you're an Indian here on an H-2 visa.
  #57  
Old May 8th 17, 04:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default All's not fair in love and science

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 9:51:51 PM UTC-4, John B Slocomb wrote:

Snip
But note the difference is in the term "formal". Dr. Stone, who had a
doctorate in library sciences, may have been an ace at the Dewey
Decimal System but the other guy, who was what is called a "Dirt
Stiff" had gone to work driving a bulldozer when he was 14 years old
and I've sat in meeting with him and a potential client and he'd be
scratching on the back of a used envelope and finally he'd sit up
straight and say something like, "We can do that job for $3,296.50 a
day and it will take us 37 days to complete it, not including mob and
de-mob. And he'd be right.


I worked with a few people like that. They were all sergeants-major from Atlantic Canada or from First Nations, and few had got past the 10th grade.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
  #58  
Old May 9th 17, 02:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default All's not fair in love and science

On 5/8/2017 9:35 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, May 7, 2017 at 6:51:52 PM UTC-7, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 7 May 2017 15:34:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/7/2017 2:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 7 May 2017 11:53:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/6/2017 11:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


"23 Famous Dropouts Who Turned Out Just Fine"
https://www.buzzfeed.com/ashleyperez/23-famous-dropouts-who-turned-out-just-fine
"8 Hugely Successful People Who Didn't Graduate College"
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/249683

I believe very strongly that there are many people in college who should
not be there, either because they lack the intellectual horsepower, or
because there are other pursuits that would do them and us much more good.

Probably true. The problem is that it's not always obvious until
AFTER they have entered college, that they are unsuited for a college
education. Even if the student is academically deficient, there is
usually an attempt by relatives to "try it for a few semesters and see
if you like it" style of encouragement.

There's also a big problem of motivation. One might assume that
everyone in college is there "to get an education". Far from the case
and it was much worse in the 1960's when the draft was going full
blast. College was where one hid from the draft, found a husband,
fulfilled the expectations of the family, burned some government
program money for minorities, avoided having to go to work, etc...

Yet another problem is guidance counseling in American high schools. At
least around here, guidance counselors get big brownie points if a kid
they counseled gets into a prestige school, and some brownie points if a
kid gets into any college. They barely get a nod if a kid becomes a
machinist, welder, plumber, carpenter, heavy equipment operator. But we
need those guys (and girls). And they deserve more respect.

(For all I know, a counselor may get their salary docked if a kid
becomes an electronic repairman or a bike shop owner.)

So the guidance counselors try to push everyone into college. Needless
to say, the accountability stops there. If the kid flunks out and that
makes him get depressed, turn to drugs and alcohol and enter a life of
crime, the guidance counselor hears no flack.

When I was 17 or 18, I really had no idea what to do with my life. I
was considering fields as disparate as music, graphic arts, science and
more. So I took the initiative to go to the guidance counselor and say
"You've given me all those achievement and aptitude and attitude tests.
What do they show? What should I do?" The guy looked at my test
results and said "It doesn't matter. You'll do fine no matter what you
do," and pushed me out the door.

I'll concede, I did do fine. But I would have felt much better if I
were able to attack the career problem with some competent guidance.

I honestly think guiding young people into appropriate careers would be
one of the best things we could do for society. As it is, when most
people are asked how they like their job, the typical answer "Eh, it's OK."



I worked with a machinist in California who insisted that his son
learn a trade before he went to collage. His theory was that a guy
could always get a job working with his hands no matter how bad the
economy.

Anyway, the son "apprenticed" to a butcher and learned enough that he
(with his father's financing) opened a butcher shop that targeted
those that demanded only the very best and are prepared to pay for it.
He ended up making so much money that he never did go to collage :-)

But I also suspect that personality enters into the equation. After
all, there are people who can, literally, " sell iceboxes to Eskimos"
and others much happier lurking in some dim laboratory developing a
new brand of laundry soap :-)


The electronics business has always been cyclic. So between jobs I would take anything that came along from selling motorcycles to helping to ocean race sailboats to getting a job with a friend installing commercial telephone systems in San Francisco high rises.

I had just finished an interconnect board in the basement telephone room. These things were pretty large one a large tall business center. The telephone people did terrible work. Many of them were beginners without sufficient training. So after I finished the panel I was walking out and my toolbelt caught on a loose wire on another interconnect board and pulled a wire loose.

So I was disgusted with that installation and was straightening some of it up so at least it wasn't a hazard when the door opened and a telephone company instructor walked in with a whole group of trainees. As he passed me he sort of sniffed and said to his group, "That's the kind of work these commercial installers do". Then he took them all over to my installation and holding his hand up to it proclaimed, "Now THIS is the sort of work the telephone company does." Holding back a laugh I crept quietly out. I told my partner upstairs and we both had a good laugh.


I'm astounded you didn't say "Excuse me, but you're looking at my
work... " etc. I would have.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #59  
Old May 9th 17, 03:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 3,345
Default All's not fair in love and science

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 6:37:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/8/2017 9:35 AM, wrote:

The electronics business has always been cyclic. So between jobs I would take anything that came along from selling motorcycles to helping to ocean race sailboats to getting a job with a friend installing commercial telephone systems in San Francisco high rises.

I had just finished an interconnect board in the basement telephone room. These things were pretty large one a large tall business center. The telephone people did terrible work. Many of them were beginners without sufficient training. So after I finished the panel I was walking out and my toolbelt caught on a loose wire on another interconnect board and pulled a wire loose.

So I was disgusted with that installation and was straightening some of it up so at least it wasn't a hazard when the door opened and a telephone company instructor walked in with a whole group of trainees. As he passed me he sort of sniffed and said to his group, "That's the kind of work these commercial installers do". Then he took them all over to my installation and holding his hand up to it proclaimed, "Now THIS is the sort of work the telephone company does." Holding back a laugh I crept quietly out. I told my partner upstairs and we both had a good laugh.


I'm astounded you didn't say "Excuse me, but you're looking at my
work... " etc. I would have.


Since I was department manager and project leader and the sort, I've always accepted other people's managing techniques as their own. I don't for a second think that guy could have thought for one second that was done by a telephone company employee. All you had to do was look around the rest of the Interconnect room.

It most certainly wasn't for me to cast any shadows on his training seminar..
  #60  
Old May 9th 17, 03:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 4,018
Default All's not fair in love and science

On Mon, 8 May 2017 06:35:54 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I had just finished an interconnect board in the basement telephone
room. These things were pretty large one a large tall business
center. The telephone people did terrible work. Many of them were
beginners without sufficient training.


Befo
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/Phone%20Room%20Before.html
After:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/Phone%20Room%20After.html

Most of the mess was created by multiple Pachell/SBC/AT&T installers
over about a 15 year period. None could be bothered to disconnect and
remove unused connections, document their work, tag the lines, or
sweep the floor. It took me about a week to clean it up. I've done
better cleanups, but the owners didn't give me permission to show off
the work.

Here's my office building phone room after removing about 3 trash
barrels of wires, and two ancient Merlin systems, only to have Comcast
cram in a huge box for nothing more than a single 8 way splitter. I
seem to have misplaced the before picture. The job is half done.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/150%20Felker%20St.html

I recently helped move an office. The phone room was the result of
one former telecom installer making the same mistake a few hundred
times. Apparently, nobody informed him of the benefits of leaving a
service loop at both ends of a cable run. Multiply that by several
hundred cable runs, where everything is point to point. If I moved a
line, I had to add a splice. My guess is that there were about 50
splices hanging from a mix of Type 66 and Type 110 blocks.

The difference in those installations were noticeable to a bum off
of the street but it was important that the trainees learned the
correct way to do it and not for me to make their work look shoddy.


True. It might be obvious to the average bum, but not to someone
allegedly versed in the art of telco installations. I've shown the
above photos to various experienced installers and was occasionally
asked "what's wrong with the before installation". I didn't cry, but
I wanted to.

Incidentally, one of my biggest problems with AT&T is getting the
provisioning, documentation, and installation to agree. Initially,
Comcast was fairly diligent about getting everything to agree, but has
slowly followed the AT&T road to sloppiness.


--
Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 




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