29"er animosity?

Being a roadie but having bought a 29"er for my wife i've got to ask,
because
I see no Ice Spiker Pro in 28xTheFatterTheBetter
and the 29"er Specialized i've got seems to have received the loveless
treatment from the company:
mechanical disk brakes, some junk crank etc:
Is there some animosity from bike makers towards 29"ers?

Are any mtb pro teams using 29"ers or that is purely an amateur
movement?

On Dec 3, 11:27*am, Anton Success wrote:
Being a roadie but having bought a 29"er for my wife i've got to ask,
because
I see no Ice Spiker Pro in 28xTheFatterTheBetter
and the 29"er Specialized i've got seems to have received the loveless
treatment from the company:
mechanical disk brakes, some junk crank etc:
Is there some animosity from bike makers towards 29"ers?

Are any mtb pro teams using 29"ers or that is purely an amateur
movement?

There are some good 29ers out there. I have a 29er with specially
developed Columbus double butted tubes, special lugs, lovely paint,
coachlining, specially developed rims, specially developed spokes,
hydraulic rim brakes, hub gears, hub dynamo, really powerful automatic
lights front and rear, mudguards, rack, superb Cane Creek headset,
super adjustable stem, same bottom bracket as fitted by all the top
Euro bikes, etc. It even came with a toolkit with a specially designed
multitool.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/Andre%20Jute's%20Utopia%20Kranich.pdf
An alternative is to build up your own 29er on a bare frame. One I
looked into that takes balloons is the Karate Monkey, and Pete
Cresswell described his buildup on another frame a couple of months
ago. -- Andre Jute

Anton Success wrote:

Being a roadie but having bought a 29"er for my wife i've got to ask,
because I see no Ice Spiker Pro in 28xTheFatterTheBetter

You choose to live in hell and you complain of the inconveniences?
Try hardiness zone 8b and see how much you crave ice tires. If you
must stay in the frozen wasteland, try to develop some of the
legendary tight-lipped stoicism of subarctic peoples.

and the 29"er Specialized i've got seems to have received the loveless
treatment from the company: mechanical disk brakes, some junk crank etc:
Is there some animosity from bike makers towards 29"ers?

It's called "profit motive". Cheap bikes are cheaply made, regardless
of wheel diameter. Some are more intelligent than others, but all are
compromised to fit the price. If you must have better value, seek out
a manufacturer that does not spend quite so much on marketing.

Cable-operated disks are the only ones that make good sense for
bicycles-- unless you think carrying oil, a syringe, spare hose and
compression fittings is reasonable for routine riding. Bicycle brake
lines are not nearly as robust or as well-protected as those of motor
vehicles. Hydraulic brakes, like sewup tires, amount to a declaration
that a bike is a toy (and only a toy).

Chalo

Per Chalo:
Cable-operated disks are the only ones that make good sense for
bicycles-- unless you think carrying oil, a syringe, spare hose and
compression fittings is reasonable for routine riding.

+1.

I put Hope Hydraulics on my first FS... and still have them
(spread across two bikes now).

The Hopes are definitely a superior brake and I *think* I can
detect slightly better modulation when using the Hopes.

The pad retention system is classy too: magnetic with cotter pin
backup. This means that when the wheel is inserted in the field
(as in a flat tire) there is no concern about snagging/bending
the spring clip used on my mechs.

The only ride-related downsides I find to the (open system)
hydros are heating on a very steep descent on a hot day
(sometimes the fluid will expand to where the brakes lock up and
one has to dismount and sit it out until it cools) and the
contingent liability of something/someone happening to the bleed
valve. AFIK the expansion thing does not manifest with
closed-system hydros and the bleed valve is probably a figment of
my basic paranoia.

Having said that, the Avid mechs I have are 100% adequate and, if
I had to buy more brakes I'd buy mechs.

--
PeteCresswell

On Dec 4, 9:32*am, Chalo wrote:

Cable-operated disks are the only ones that make good sense for
bicycles-- unless you think carrying oil, a syringe, spare hose and
compression fittings is reasonable for routine riding. *Bicycle brake
lines are not nearly as robust or as well-protected as those of motor
vehicles. *Hydraulic brakes, like sewup tires, amount to a declaration
that a bike is a toy (and only a toy).

I like the hydraulic rim brakes on my Kranich. A lot. They're superior
in controllability to the Shimano rollers I preferred before, and
those are much superior to disc brakes for everyday use. (I've never
had really good standard rim brakes, but hated the ones I did have.)

Down to the rim I don't see that a hydraulic line is all that exposed
in normal use or or even offroad use.

I'll admit though that the one time a branch ripped a disc brake
cable, though I took a startling fall -- I fell into a ditch full of
hedge cuttings, so I was scratched more than bruised even, everything
worked fine and I later told my family a hydraulic line would have
been ripped out and stranded me with only a rear brake with the major
downhills still between me and home.

Andre Jute
Visit Andre's Gazelle Toulouse at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20Bauhaus.html

fiultra5 wrote:

Chalo wrote:

Cable-operated disks are the only ones that make good sense for
bicycles-- unless you think carrying oil, a syringe, spare hose and
compression fittings is reasonable for routine riding. *Bicycle brake
lines are not nearly as robust or as well-protected as those of motor
vehicles. *Hydraulic brakes, like sewup tires, amount to a declaration
that a bike is a toy (and only a toy).

I like the hydraulic rim brakes on my Kranich. A lot. They're superior
in controllability to the Shimano rollers I preferred before, and
those are much superior to disc brakes for everyday use. (I've never
had really good standard rim brakes, but hated the ones I did have.)

Hydraulics feel great, which really isn't the point. Rabbit fur
saddles would also feel great, but would impose unnecessary upkeep and
expense... like hydraulic anything on a bike. It's technical overkill
on a machine that is otherwise an expression of minimalist
perfection.

Chalo

Chalo wrote:
fiultra5 wrote:
Chalo wrote:
Cable-operated disks are the only ones that make good sense for
bicycles-- unless you think carrying oil, a syringe, spare hose and
compression fittings is reasonable for routine riding. Bicycle brake
lines are not nearly as robust or as well-protected as those of motor
vehicles. Hydraulic brakes, like sewup tires, amount to a declaration
that a bike is a toy (and only a toy).
I like the hydraulic rim brakes on my Kranich. A lot. They're superior
in controllability to the Shimano rollers I preferred before, and
those are much superior to disc brakes for everyday use. (I've never
had really good standard rim brakes, but hated the ones I did have.)

Hydraulics feel great, which really isn't the point. Rabbit fur
saddles would also feel great, but would impose unnecessary upkeep and
expense... like hydraulic anything on a bike. It's technical overkill
on a machine that is otherwise an expression of minimalist
perfection.

Chalo

Yeah but one might kill and skin a rabbit in less time than
some notable hydraulic bicycle brake rebuilds.
Cars and motorcycle brake service is simple by comparison.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Dec 4, 9:24*pm, Chalo wrote:
fiultra5 wrote:

Chalo wrote:

Cable-operated disks are the only ones that make good sense for
bicycles-- unless you think carrying oil, a syringe, spare hose and
compression fittings is reasonable for routine riding. *Bicycle brake
lines are not nearly as robust or as well-protected as those of motor
vehicles. *Hydraulic brakes, like sewup tires, amount to a declaration
that a bike is a toy (and only a toy).

I like the hydraulic rim brakes on my Kranich. A lot. They're superior
in controllability to the Shimano rollers I preferred before, and
those are much superior to disc brakes for everyday use. (I've never
had really good standard rim brakes, but hated the ones I did have.)

Hydraulics feel great, which really isn't the point. *Rabbit fur
saddles would also feel great, but would impose unnecessary upkeep and
expense... like hydraulic anything on a bike. *It's technical overkill
on a machine that is otherwise an expression of minimalist
perfection.

Chalo

One can take minimalism in the name of efficiency too far. I thrill to
technical overkill on my bike. Among other things I don't really need
a stainless steel rack, the hefty Cane Creek headset, the sealed
bearings on my previous VP-191 pedals, the SON hub dynamo, and the
Sapim spokes with the specially angled heads to suit the Rohloff hub
better. But I'm not so sure I'd give any of them up for the approval
of the Bauhaus Bikers.

As for hydraulic rim brakes, okay, I agree, overkill. But so are the
Shimano 70/75 series roller brakes and better. At the margin you will
always find those willing to pay the price (including inconvenient
breakages, if you're right) for technical perfection and some who
claim in the name the Bauhaus that it is a perfection too far. But I
just don't see any conceivable circumstance in my present or
foreseeable use in which my hydraulic rim brakes will be damaged, and
if the lines perish from age or UV exposure or whatever, then I fit
new lines, big deal.

Andre Jute
From Our House to the Bauhaus -- title of a very funny book by Tom
Wolfe

On 05/12/2010 03:21, Phil W Lee wrote:
considered Sat, 04 Dec 2010 10:24:02
-0500 the perfect time to write:

Per Chalo:
Cable-operated disks are the only ones that make good sense for
bicycles-- unless you think carrying oil, a syringe, spare hose and
compression fittings is reasonable for routine riding.

+1.

I put Hope Hydraulics on my first FS... and still have them
(spread across two bikes now).

The Hopes are definitely a superior brake and I *think* I can
detect slightly better modulation when using the Hopes.

The pad retention system is classy too: magnetic with cotter pin
backup. This means that when the wheel is inserted in the field
(as in a flat tire) there is no concern about snagging/bending
the spring clip used on my mechs.

The only ride-related downsides I find to the (open system)
hydros are heating on a very steep descent on a hot day
(sometimes the fluid will expand to where the brakes lock up and
one has to dismount and sit it out until it cools) and the
contingent liability of something/someone happening to the bleed
valve. AFIK the expansion thing does not manifest with
closed-system hydros and the bleed valve is probably a figment of
my basic paranoia.

Having said that, the Avid mechs I have are 100% adequate and, if
I had to buy more brakes I'd buy mechs.

I'm pretty sure you've got your definitions of open and closed
hydraulic systems crossed.
Closed systems (because they are closed) have no way to vent any fluid
as it expands, and can lock the brake through overheating.
Open systems avoid this by having a vent, but in doing so become
orientation sensitive (they only work properly if the vent is at the
top).
Because it is important to keep open systems somewhere near upright
(or at least not completely upside down), closed systems are more
common on bicycles, while open systems are more common on roadgoing
motor vehicles (if they get inverted, air in the brake line is likely
to be the least of your problems).

I think he's got it backwards too. However I thought on disks, open
systems were more common - but they're not completely open, but instead
have a diaphragm im the reservoir to allow expansion without air getting in.

Magura rim brakes are of course closed, which led to an amusing
conversation with Jim Beam a couple of years ago :-)

(I tried a tandem with some hope C2s - closed disks. Far too easy to get
hot enough to bind).

Op 5-12-2010 4:21, Phil W Lee schreef:
considered Sat, 04 Dec 2010 10:24:02
-0500 the perfect time to write:

Per Chalo:
Cable-operated disks are the only ones that make good sense for
bicycles-- unless you think carrying oil, a syringe, spare hose and
compression fittings is reasonable for routine riding.

+1.

I put Hope Hydraulics on my first FS... and still have them
(spread across two bikes now).

The Hopes are definitely a superior brake and I *think* I can
detect slightly better modulation when using the Hopes.

The pad retention system is classy too: magnetic with cotter pin
backup. This means that when the wheel is inserted in the field
(as in a flat tire) there is no concern about snagging/bending
the spring clip used on my mechs.

The only ride-related downsides I find to the (open system)
hydros are heating on a very steep descent on a hot day
(sometimes the fluid will expand to where the brakes lock up and
one has to dismount and sit it out until it cools) and the
contingent liability of something/someone happening to the bleed
valve. AFIK the expansion thing does not manifest with
closed-system hydros and the bleed valve is probably a figment of
my basic paranoia.

Having said that, the Avid mechs I have are 100% adequate and, if
I had to buy more brakes I'd buy mechs.

I'm pretty sure you've got your definitions of open and closed
hydraulic systems crossed.
Closed systems (because they are closed) have no way to vent any fluid
as it expands, and can lock the brake through overheating.
Open systems avoid this by having a vent, but in doing so become
orientation sensitive (they only work properly if the vent is at the
top).
Because it is important to keep open systems somewhere near upright
(or at least not completely upside down), closed systems are more
common on bicycles, while open systems are more common on roadgoing
motor vehicles (if they get inverted, air in the brake line is likely
to be the least of your problems).

Close systems are not common on bicycles (anymore). Alle the hydraulic
disk brakes are self adjusting these day, so the are open systems. The
Magura hydro rimbrakes are a closed system.

Lou