Bicycle riders will get more respect once they start obeying the laws that govern them.

"Wayne Pein" wrote in message
...
me wrote:




Wayne thank you kindly for your response. Out of respect and
concern I must say the following.

The problem appears to be that you think (like some motorists) that
it is always the other guy that needs to watch out and work around
whatever you want to do. Obviously you have never pulled a 11,000lb
livestock truck over back country roads. I invite you to try out
here some nice Saturday in May.

Besides being risky for the valuable animals, you would find very
quickly there is no way to stop and still control the vehicle when
rounding a curve or coming over a hill an encountering two
bicyclists riding abreast. Believe me, there are many deer possums
and squirrels that have found this to be true during their last
moments on earth.

Dear Me,

What do you do if there is a car stopped in the road? Bash it? No,
you come to a controlled stop. That is your responsibility, and you
are required to drive slow enough and have your vehicle in control
to be able to do so. If it requires driving even slower, so be it.
It is NOT the responsibility of vehicle users, including bicyclists,
to watch out from behind.


OK Wayne,

I think you are intentionally being thick.

One last time, then I give up. A car stopped on the road is illegal.
If a car is stopped in the middle of the road out of the line of site
of oncoming traffic it is parked illegally. If I bash it while I am
within the posted speed limit and I cannot see it, the operator of
that vehicle is responsible and will be ticketed. However in you case
the ticket would be given to you heirs


Additionally, I am not required by law to risk my life avoiding
those thumbing their noses at Darwin, while I am within the posted
speed limits. (see the reasonable man statutes) so for your own
health and safety, I respectfully suggest that you do pay
attention.

Me,

Again, YOU must control your vehicle.

§20-141. Speed restrictions.
(a) No person shall drive a vehicle on a highway or in a public
vehicular area at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent
under the conditions then existing.

Bicycles riding two abrest are not reasonable and prudent and
therefore unexpected.

(m) The fact that the speed of a vehicle is lower than the foregoing
limits shall not relieve the operator of a vehicle from the duty to
decrease speed as may be necessary to avoid colliding with any
person, vehicle or other conveyance on or entering the highway, and
to avoid injury to any person or property.

Let me say it another way for you. All drivers must travel no faster
than sight distance and conditions allow them to slow or stop to
avoid colliding with other traffic moving slower or stopped in the
road ahead. The default safe speed in a traffic lane at a given
point is the speed of the slowest user, whether it is a bicycle,
farm tractor, transit bus, or any legally slow(ed) or stopped
vehicle or crossing pedestrian.


Nope you are wrong. There have been many fatalities of bicyclists that
have been ruled not the fault of the driver and you know it. I hope
you are never in that situation, but if you are, it will be your
fault.


See: http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm

Denning L.J. in Morton vs. Wheeler said
"if a reasonable man, taking such contingencies into account and
giving close attention to the state of affairs would say: 'I think
there is quite a chance that someone going along the road may be
injured if this stays as it is', then it is a danger; but if the
possibility of injury is so remote that he would dismiss it out of
hand saying: 'Of course it is possible but not in the least
probable' then it is not a danger"".

I would argue that this opinion applies equally to bicycles as well
as motorists.

I would argue that you are the type of person who tries to blame the
victim.

Wayne


I would argue that you are unreasonable in the face of reason and
intentionally argumentative. Good luck with that attitude in real
life.

Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote:

Wayne Pein wrote:


This statute applies to motor vehicles, not bicycle vehicles, and
clearly exempts those vehicles that have limited operating speeds due to
their design and use.



I won't be happy until roller skates, scooters, tricycles,
skate boards, and bicycles are prohibited on any roadway
with a speed limit greater than 35 mph.

There are no more dangerous roadhogs than a mob of (supposed)
adult bicyclists on a highway - particularly a rural one.

Let them obtain a parade permit for races, rallies, etc.


Your happiness is not my concern.

Why don't I have troubles with "dangerous roadhogs" when I'm driving my
car and encounter a group of cyclists? Oh I know, you and most other
motorists are incompetent and like to blame others.

Wayne

"Dweezil Dwarftosser" wrote in message
...
Wayne Pein wrote:


This statute applies to motor vehicles, not bicycle vehicles, and
clearly exempts those vehicles that have limited operating speeds
due to
their design and use.


I won't be happy until roller skates, scooters, tricycles,
skate boards, and bicycles are prohibited on any roadway
with a speed limit greater than 35 mph.

There are no more dangerous roadhogs than a mob of (supposed)
adult bicyclists on a highway - particularly a rural one.

Let them obtain a parade permit for races, rallies, etc.

Although I tend to agree, In general I think operators that behave as
if operating the vehicle is secondary to some other activity are by
far more dangerous than slow moving vehicles .

On Jun 4, 8:43 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
"Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote in as.earthlink.net...

Here - I'll tell it like it is - kiss my ass. As the driver of 3500 lbs of
steel moving at 40+ mph traffic laws are important and necessary. As the
rider on a 20 lb bicycle without a shred of protection some cocksucker
with a big mouth like yours ought to just say something like that to my
face so that I can kick your ass for sure.

This is symtomatic of the psychological side effects of those in this sport
who take testosterone injections to improve their performance. Suggest you
lay off the juice for a while, bro.

While I may have been a bit over the top you need to understand what
it's like riding a bicycle on the street. Surely there are people who
do not give motor vehicles their proper right of way when it is
demanded by law. But most cyclists respect other's rights regardless
they run lights or stop signs when no other traffic is present.

Here's some of the experiences I've seen or had:

I approached a light heading east. Two other cyclists pull into the
middle lane coming in the opposite direction since the right lane was
a right turn only lane. A truck pulled up behind them intending to
turn left and started screaming names at them and shouted "If you
don't get out of in front of me I'll KILL YOU!" The light was still
red, the truck couldn't proceed and the bicyclists could accelerate
faster than the truck. I was standing directly next to a cop parked on
the sidewalk in full view of the stupid truck driver. His window was
open. I asked, "What are you going to do about that?" He replied,
"Nothing," started his car, pulled off the sidewalk, turned right and
drove away before the light changed. Luckily as he turned the dumbass
truck driver spotted him and toned down and as the light changed the
cyclists were long gone before he could even put the truck in gear.

A couple of months ago I was riding on a street in Concord that is
almost a freeway early in the morning. There was no traffic at all on
the road. This road has two lanes in each direction. I was on the
shoulder of the road and there was a turn off into a housing area at
that point so there was a right turn lane divided from the main road
by 40 feet of cross-hatch striped divider. (This is termed an "island"
and it is illegal to drive on them.) A vehicle traveling well over the
maximum speed limit crossed from the fast lane all the way across the
other lane, the island and the right turn lane and came within inches
of me and then swerved out into the fast lane again.

I could add another dozen experiences to these stories - but the point
is that if you haven't the slightest clue about what cyclists have to
content with you ought to keep your comments to yourself of expect
more than a disproportionate response.

abby now wrote:

"Wayne Pein" wrote in message
...
Bicyclists need not pay attention to passing motorists. It is the
responsibility of those wishing to pass to pay attention and to pass
safely.

This is why motorists hate bicyclists!

It's time for proposing a law here that has been in use in
Germany for at least a number of decades:
"It is a violation of law for the operator of any vehicle
to insist upon his right of way".

On Jun 5, 10:43 am, Wayne Pein wrote:
me wrote:
I do not object to bicycles on the roads, nor do I want to
unintentionally (or even intentionally) harm or kill anyone.

It occurs to me that some of the riders around here ride closer to
each other than three feet apart. Often times they are leisurely
riding two abreast down the road having a conversation when they are
approached from behind (if I am driving, going below the posted speed)
by a 4-6 ton truck towing a trailer. They probably do not realize that
in some cases a truck like this does not slow from 50 to 5 mph quickly
enough to not hit them. The only alternative then is to pass. If I am
pulling around a pair of bicyclists with a trailer and oncoming car or
truck (often going to fast) appears suddenly, guess who gets squeezed?
To me, these bicyclists are the equivalent of drivers whose priority
is a cell phone conversation.

Alternatively there are serious riders that stay right, move at a good
clip, are generally respectful and aware of the traffic and do not
have priorities other than riding. These people generally do not
become speed bumps.

I think if both parties (drivers and bicyclists) use their heads and
*pay attention* on the road, giving respect to the other person, most
times things work out. However it does not take a rocket surgeon to
know that riding a bicycle on the same road with 2-10 ton vehicle (and
some of the nut cases driving them) is *dangerous*. I suggest that if
you are out for a leisurely ride to chat and not pay particular
attention to what you are doing, there are approximately 7000 acres
(an area 8 miles long and 2 miles wide) in the center of the triangle
that has paved roads and is almost empty on the weekends, it is called
the RTP. IMO this is a *much* safer alternative for most of the
recreational bicycle riders I see on the county roads.

There should never be the *need* to pass rather than slow. All vehicle
drivers should be able to come to a complete stop in time to avoid
hitting a stationary object, like a vehicle stopped at a traffic signal.
A moving bicyclist creates significant margin for error.

Bicyclists need not pay attention to passing motorists. It is the
responsibility of those wishing to pass to pay attention and to pass
safely.

And it's more than time that those who believe that they have the
right to pass anywhere and at any time because their vehicle is
capable of greater speeds than yours to be arrested and taken directly
to jail.

This will happen as the price of gas goes up and it becomes more
apparent to the citizens of this country that the superiority complex
assumed by drivers is a mental problem that can be reduced only with
penal penalty.

On Jun 5, 11:10 am, "geoff" wrote:

So, the guy who wants to kick ass, please call the Cary police and let them
know you will be kicking their ass. I am sure they will have a reply for
you.

I see that you still don't seem to have a grasp on the difference
between a MOTOR vehicle and a vehicle. Moreover, you don't seem to
understand what "self propelled" means in the context of law.

That's OK though, I'm sure that a police officer will be more than
happy to explain it to you as he is writing you up when you fail to
give a cyclist sufficient room when passing.

On Jun 5, 11:23 am, "me" wrote:

Additionally, I am not required by law to risk my life avoiding those
thumbing their noses at Darwin, while I am within the posted speed
limits. (see the reasonable man statutes) so for your own health and
safety, I respectfully suggest that you do pay attention.

In case you're unaware of it, ALL OPERATORS OF MOTOR VEHICLE ARE
RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAFE OPERATION OF THEIR VEHICLES.

You see you ARE required by law to never injure another person on the
road whether or not he is breaking the law. Overtaking vehicles are
ALWAYS required to operate at a speed at which they can stop
regardless of any other circumstances.

I know that's difficult for drivers to understand that they should be
severely penalized for unsafe operation of thousands of pounds of self-
propelled vehicles but in a sane society you would be jailed the
second you took a single chance with someone else's life.

me wrote:


OK Wayne,

I think you are intentionally being thick.

One last time, then I give up. A car stopped on the road is illegal.

No Me, it is not illegal.

If a car is stopped in the middle of the road out of the line of site
of oncoming traffic it is parked illegally.

Don't be a buffoon. If a car is stopped in the middle of the road it may
be doing so because of a legitimate reason such as a flagman, an
accident, a crossing deer, congestion, etc. Quit victim blaming. And
learn the rules.

If I bash it while I am
within the posted speed limit and I cannot see it, the operator of
that vehicle is responsible and will be ticketed. However in you case
the ticket would be given to you heirs

Hehehehe. You're a hoot. Further, bicyclists don't stop in the middle of
the road. You are clearly displeased with bicycle drivers driving along
the road at less than the posted speed limit. Well, get used to it. Farm
tractors, front loaders, stopped busses and delivery vehicles, etc. are
all slow, and you are required to adjust. Sorry.


Bicycles riding two abrest are not reasonable and prudent and
therefore unexpected.


Yes, they are. Farm tractors are as slow as bicycles, and they are
reasonable and prudent aren't they. Further, it is reasonable and
prudent for a single bicyclist to use the full lane, ie ride in the left
tire track.

The NCDOT Driver’s Manual provides the useful guidance, “Bicyclists
usually ride on the right side of the lane, but are entitled to the use
of a full lane....When passing a bicyclist, always remember the
bicyclist is entitled to the use of the full lane.”

Again, you are trying to rationalize your own short comings as a motor
vehicle operator, and transfer the blame to others. You try to couch
your argument as being concerned for bicyclist safety, but you really
are concerned with your own convenience.




(m) The fact that the speed of a vehicle is lower than the foregoing
limits shall not relieve the operator of a vehicle from the duty to
decrease speed as may be necessary to avoid colliding with any
person, vehicle or other conveyance on or entering the highway, and
to avoid injury to any person or property.

Let me say it another way for you. All drivers must travel no faster
than sight distance and conditions allow them to slow or stop to
avoid colliding with other traffic moving slower or stopped in the
road ahead. The default safe speed in a traffic lane at a given
point is the speed of the slowest user, whether it is a bicycle,
farm tractor, transit bus, or any legally slow(ed) or stopped
vehicle or crossing pedestrian.


Nope you are wrong. There have been many fatalities of bicyclists that
have been ruled not the fault of the driver and you know it. I hope
you are never in that situation, but if you are, it will be your
fault.

Victim blaming. You don't have a clue as to bicyclist-motor vehicle
collision causality or fault statistics, so don't try to fake it.
I think you need to read (m) again.


I would argue that you are unreasonable in the face of reason and
intentionally argumentative. Good luck with that attitude in real
life.

It's served me well for 44 years of bicycle riding so I think I'll stick
with it.

Wayne

me wrote:
Besides being risky for the valuable animals, you would find very
quickly there is no way to stop and still control the vehicle when
rounding a curve or coming over a hill an encountering two bicyclists
riding abreast. Believe me, there are many deer possums and squirrels
that have found this to be true during their last moments on earth.

Additionally, I am not required by law to risk my life avoiding those
thumbing their noses at Darwin, while I am within the posted speed
limits. (see the reasonable man statutes) so for your own health and
safety, I respectfully suggest that you do pay attention.

You, sir, are in denial. "I'm driving a big heavy truck, I'm plunging
along out of control and y'all better clear the road." If you are not
able to respond to changing conditions in the road ahead, then you are
driving recklessly. The fact that you are hauling a large, heavy
trailer adds to your level of responsibility - it does not pass it on to
everyone else.

There could be any number of obstructions in the road around a "blind"
curve - not just a bicyclist. A cop writing a ticket. A fallen tree.
A farmer's tractor. A stalled driver. Someone walking across to their
mailbox. I've seen all of these in the past couple of months. If you
plow into something or someone out of your own carelessness, you take
the chance of having a manslaughter charge and jail time as a result.

-dreq