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Gresham's Law



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 14th 19, 11:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Gresham's Law

On 11/14/2019 4:32 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 1:18:39 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/contine...arket-product/



From the link:
"Dandelion root extract makes up part of the formula, which it is hoped will revolutionise the tyre compound and lessen the reliance on polluting rubber."

Ladies and gentlmen, if you'll look out of the window, you'll notice we're now entering leprechaun land.

Andre Jute
Special Witch Doctor Kit with Optional Dandelion Root Extract now only $29.95 plus six offbrand cola tops


The National Socialist Germans worked with dandelion for a
rubber substitute/extender during the war. It's not
ridiculous although maybe not so cost effective.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Ads
  #12  
Old November 15th 19, 12:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Gresham's Law

On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:38:49 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, 14 November 2019 12:53:56 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/14/2019 11:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

We had a good non-currency example of this recently when PG&E turned
off the electric power for a few days to allegedly prevent starting
forest fires. The necessity and demand for generators immediately
rose. Literally, the first day, the better quality generators were
gone from the stores, while the low quality generators was all one
could find, usually at artificially high prices. Fortunately, it only
lasted about two weeks, as the stores were able to restock their
generators, at high prices, of course. Did they restock with high
quality generators? Nope. Most of what I saw for sale at the local
big box stores was bottom of the line models. It also produced a
supply of "broken" used generators for sale, some of which I've been
considering buying and reselling. Most of them were trashed by E10
ethanol fuel left sitting in the carburetor and are an easy fix.


Decades ago, I read of a proposal for home heating and home power
generation by using home generators powered by natural gas. The big
efficiency boost would come from utilization of waste heat from the
generator, first to heat home water, then space heating. I suppose a
dedicated hobbyist could give it a try by modifying a commercial
generator to run on NG.

Similarly, the idea of "co-generation" was floated, in which small local
plants could burn a variety of fuels - perhaps including trash - to
generate electricity for a community, and pipe waste heat into nearby
buildings.

If California had either of those systems running, PG&E problems would
have much less impact.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Wasn't there a city in Norway that built a garbage burning generating station that was so successful along with recycling that they had to import garbage from other areas in order to keep the generating plant running?

Ah yes. Oslo, Norway.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/30/w...to-energy.html

Cheers


That is interesting but I think it is likely that the Oslo plant must
be highly selective in the garbage that they burn as a number of
places in Asia have experimented in using garbage as fuel for a
electrical generation, Singapore comes to mind here, and the net
results is that it is not financially effective as natural gas or some
other fuel is needed to burn the garbage.

But it is possible that garbage in parts of Asia is actually different
from garbage in Europe. For example, we, here in Thailand, buy no
canned goods and almost no food stuffs packaged in plastic or paper.
Indonesia was similar and very probably Singapore and Malaysia are
also similar, and I suspect that China and Japan are similar.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #13  
Old November 15th 19, 12:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Gresham's Law

On 11/14/2019 5:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:38:49 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, 14 November 2019 12:53:56 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/14/2019 11:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

We had a good non-currency example of this recently when PG&E turned
off the electric power for a few days to allegedly prevent starting
forest fires. The necessity and demand for generators immediately
rose. Literally, the first day, the better quality generators were
gone from the stores, while the low quality generators was all one
could find, usually at artificially high prices. Fortunately, it only
lasted about two weeks, as the stores were able to restock their
generators, at high prices, of course. Did they restock with high
quality generators? Nope. Most of what I saw for sale at the local
big box stores was bottom of the line models. It also produced a
supply of "broken" used generators for sale, some of which I've been
considering buying and reselling. Most of them were trashed by E10
ethanol fuel left sitting in the carburetor and are an easy fix.

Decades ago, I read of a proposal for home heating and home power
generation by using home generators powered by natural gas. The big
efficiency boost would come from utilization of waste heat from the
generator, first to heat home water, then space heating. I suppose a
dedicated hobbyist could give it a try by modifying a commercial
generator to run on NG.

Similarly, the idea of "co-generation" was floated, in which small local
plants could burn a variety of fuels - perhaps including trash - to
generate electricity for a community, and pipe waste heat into nearby
buildings.

If California had either of those systems running, PG&E problems would
have much less impact.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Wasn't there a city in Norway that built a garbage burning generating station that was so successful along with recycling that they had to import garbage from other areas in order to keep the generating plant running?

Ah yes. Oslo, Norway.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/30/w...to-energy.html

Cheers


That is interesting but I think it is likely that the Oslo plant must
be highly selective in the garbage that they burn as a number of
places in Asia have experimented in using garbage as fuel for a
electrical generation, Singapore comes to mind here, and the net
results is that it is not financially effective as natural gas or some
other fuel is needed to burn the garbage.

But it is possible that garbage in parts of Asia is actually different
from garbage in Europe. For example, we, here in Thailand, buy no
canned goods and almost no food stuffs packaged in plastic or paper.
Indonesia was similar and very probably Singapore and Malaysia are
also similar, and I suspect that China and Japan are similar.
--
cheers,

John B.


I don't know from Thailand or Singapore but the Japanese are
the absolute experts on municipal refuse incineration.

https://www.japan-talk.com/jt/new/yo...rning-in-Tokyo

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2018/ph240/park-h2/

https://www.japan.go.jp/tomodachi/20...echnology.html

I saw impressive municipal incinerator operations in
suburban Tokyo almost 40 years ago and if anything they're
even better at it now.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #14  
Old November 15th 19, 01:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default Gresham's Law

On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 10:52:53 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/14/2019 4:32 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 1:18:39 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/contine...arket-product/



From the link:
"Dandelion root extract makes up part of the formula, which it is hoped will revolutionise the tyre compound and lessen the reliance on polluting rubber."

Ladies and gentlmen, if you'll look out of the window, you'll notice we're now entering leprechaun land.

Andre Jute
Special Witch Doctor Kit with Optional Dandelion Root Extract now only $29.95 plus six offbrand cola tops


The National Socialist Germans worked with dandelion for a
rubber substitute/extender during the war. It's not
ridiculous although maybe not so cost effective.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Official on-topic news: HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU AREN'T WEARING DANDELION MILK? Dandelion milk contains latex, as does bicycle clothing.

Andre Jute
Buna
  #15  
Old November 15th 19, 01:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,131
Default Gresham's Law

On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 06:33:39 +0700, John B. wrote:


https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/30/w...lo-copes-with-

shortage-of-garbage-it-turns-into-energy.html

Cheers


That is interesting but I think it is likely that the Oslo plant must be
highly selective in the garbage that they burn as a number of places in
Asia have experimented in using garbage as fuel for a electrical
generation,


You have to be selective in the fuel that you pile into any burner idf
you want the fuel to output heat for other processes.

Singapore comes to mind here, and the net results is that it
is not financially effective as natural gas or some other fuel is needed
to burn the garbage.


Burning of garbage is an old method, but it doesn't mean that all garbage
can be used as fuel.


But it is possible that garbage in parts of Asia is actually different
from garbage in Europe.


Yes. different cultures produce different garbage.


and I suspect that China and Japan are similar.


Err, Japan has a culture of paper packaging. Australia has been selling
its forest to make such for many decades.

  #16  
Old November 15th 19, 01:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,131
Default Gresham's Law

On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 16:08:19 -0800, Andre Jute wrote:

On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 10:52:53 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/14/2019 4:32 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 1:18:39 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/contine...c-bike-market-

product/



From the link:
"Dandelion root extract makes up part of the formula, which it is
hoped will revolutionise the tyre compound and lessen the reliance on
polluting rubber."

Ladies and gentlmen, if you'll look out of the window, you'll notice
we're now entering leprechaun land.

Andre Jute Special Witch Doctor Kit with Optional Dandelion Root
Extract now only $29.95 plus six offbrand cola tops


The National Socialist Germans worked with dandelion for a rubber
substitute/extender during the war. It's not ridiculous although maybe
not so cost effective.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Official on-topic news: HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU AREN'T WEARING DANDELION
MILK? Dandelion milk contains latex, as does bicycle clothing.

Andre Jute Buna


Well, I do not wear latex, never have.
But I do drink a product from the root of the dandeloin plant.
Bicycle tyres made from dandeloin root will provide a great marketing
point for extreme bicyclist; they can eat their tyre to survive.

  #17  
Old November 15th 19, 02:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Gresham's Law

On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 16:52:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/14/2019 4:32 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 1:18:39 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/contine...arket-product/



From the link:
"Dandelion root extract makes up part of the formula, which it is hoped will revolutionise the tyre compound and lessen the reliance on polluting rubber."

Ladies and gentlmen, if you'll look out of the window, you'll notice we're now entering leprechaun land.

Andre Jute
Special Witch Doctor Kit with Optional Dandelion Root Extract now only $29.95 plus six offbrand cola tops


The National Socialist Germans worked with dandelion for a
rubber substitute/extender during the war. It's not
ridiculous although maybe not so cost effective.


Continental actually has/does make tires out of the stuff. see
https://tinyurl.com/yemacsq5

One site I read seemed to imply that rubber made from dandelions was
lighter in weight than those made from tree sap.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #18  
Old November 15th 19, 02:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Gresham's Law

On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 17:52:47 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/14/2019 5:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:38:49 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, 14 November 2019 12:53:56 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/14/2019 11:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

We had a good non-currency example of this recently when PG&E turned
off the electric power for a few days to allegedly prevent starting
forest fires. The necessity and demand for generators immediately
rose. Literally, the first day, the better quality generators were
gone from the stores, while the low quality generators was all one
could find, usually at artificially high prices. Fortunately, it only
lasted about two weeks, as the stores were able to restock their
generators, at high prices, of course. Did they restock with high
quality generators? Nope. Most of what I saw for sale at the local
big box stores was bottom of the line models. It also produced a
supply of "broken" used generators for sale, some of which I've been
considering buying and reselling. Most of them were trashed by E10
ethanol fuel left sitting in the carburetor and are an easy fix.

Decades ago, I read of a proposal for home heating and home power
generation by using home generators powered by natural gas. The big
efficiency boost would come from utilization of waste heat from the
generator, first to heat home water, then space heating. I suppose a
dedicated hobbyist could give it a try by modifying a commercial
generator to run on NG.

Similarly, the idea of "co-generation" was floated, in which small local
plants could burn a variety of fuels - perhaps including trash - to
generate electricity for a community, and pipe waste heat into nearby
buildings.

If California had either of those systems running, PG&E problems would
have much less impact.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Wasn't there a city in Norway that built a garbage burning generating station that was so successful along with recycling that they had to import garbage from other areas in order to keep the generating plant running?

Ah yes. Oslo, Norway.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/30/w...to-energy.html

Cheers


That is interesting but I think it is likely that the Oslo plant must
be highly selective in the garbage that they burn as a number of
places in Asia have experimented in using garbage as fuel for a
electrical generation, Singapore comes to mind here, and the net
results is that it is not financially effective as natural gas or some
other fuel is needed to burn the garbage.

But it is possible that garbage in parts of Asia is actually different
from garbage in Europe. For example, we, here in Thailand, buy no
canned goods and almost no food stuffs packaged in plastic or paper.
Indonesia was similar and very probably Singapore and Malaysia are
also similar, and I suspect that China and Japan are similar.
--
cheers,

John B.


I don't know from Thailand or Singapore but the Japanese are
the absolute experts on municipal refuse incineration.

https://www.japan-talk.com/jt/new/yo...rning-in-Tokyo

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2018/ph240/park-h2/

https://www.japan.go.jp/tomodachi/20...echnology.html

I saw impressive municipal incinerator operations in
suburban Tokyo almost 40 years ago and if anything they're
even better at it now.


But no mention of generating electricity from the incinerators.

Singapore, a small island, built an incinerator attached to their
electrical generating plant and found it necessary to add gas fuel - I
don't know LPG, LNG, whatever - to get the stuff to burn.

As I mentioned, Asian garbage is different. Nearly all "wet" garbage,
i.e., table and cooking scraps, and very little else. Another point,
in most of the poorer Asian nations the garbage is gleaned. People
actually pick over the garbage and sort out everything that can be
sold - scrap paper, plastic bottles, tin cans, etc. so the "garbage"
contains very little that will burn well.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #19  
Old November 15th 19, 02:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Gresham's Law

On 11/14/2019 6:52 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/14/2019 5:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:38:49 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, 14 November 2019 12:53:56 UTC-5, Frank KrygowskiÂ* wrote:
On 11/14/2019 11:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

We had a good non-currency example of this recently when PG&E turned
off the electric power for a few days to allegedly prevent starting
forest fires.Â* The necessity and demand for generators immediately
rose.Â* Literally, the first day, the better quality generators were
gone from the stores, while the low quality generators was all one
could find, usually at artificially high prices.Â* Fortunately, it only
lasted about two weeks, as the stores were able to restock their
generators, at high prices, of course.Â* Did they restock with high
quality generators?Â* Nope.Â* Most of what I saw for sale at the local
big box stores was bottom of the line models.Â* It also produced a
supply of "broken" used generators for sale, some of which I've been
considering buying and reselling.Â* Most of them were trashed by E10
ethanol fuel left sitting in the carburetor and are an easy fix.

Decades ago, I read of a proposal for home heating and home power
generation by using home generators powered by natural gas. The big
efficiency boost would come from utilization of waste heat from the
generator, first to heat home water, then space heating. I suppose a
dedicated hobbyist could give it a try by modifying a commercial
generator to run on NG.

Similarly, the idea of "co-generation" was floated, in which small
local
plants could burn a variety of fuels - perhaps including trash - to
generate electricity for a community, and pipe waste heat into nearby
buildings.

If California had either of those systems running, PG&E problems would
have much less impact.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Wasn't there a city in Norway that built a garbage burning generating
station that was so successful along with recycling that they had to
import garbage from other areas in order to keep the generating plant
running?

Ah yes. Oslo, Norway.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/30/w...to-energy.html


Cheers


That is interesting but I think it is likely that the Oslo plant must
be highly selective in the garbage that they burn as a number of
places in Asia have experimented in using garbage as fuel for a
electrical generation, Singapore comes to mind here, and the net
results is that it is not financially effective as natural gas or some
other fuel is needed to burn the garbage.

But it is possible that garbage in parts of Asia is actually different
from garbage in Europe. For example, we, here in Thailand, buy no
canned goods and almost no food stuffs packaged in plastic or paper.
Indonesia was similar and very probably Singapore and Malaysia are
also similar, and I suspect that China and Japan are similar.
--
cheers,

John B.


I don't know from Thailand or Singapore but the Japanese are the
absolute experts on municipal refuse incineration.

https://www.japan-talk.com/jt/new/yo...rning-in-Tokyo


http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2018/ph240/park-h2/

https://www.japan.go.jp/tomodachi/20...echnology.html


I saw impressive municipal incinerator operations in suburban Tokyo
almost 40 years ago and if anything they're even better at it now.


And regarding Joerg's worries (else-thread) about air pollution, the
Japanese have close to the world's highest life expectancy.



--
- Frank Krygowski
  #20  
Old November 15th 19, 03:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Gresham's Law

On 11/14/2019 7:27 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 17:52:47 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/14/2019 5:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:38:49 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, 14 November 2019 12:53:56 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/14/2019 11:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

We had a good non-currency example of this recently when PG&E turned
off the electric power for a few days to allegedly prevent starting
forest fires. The necessity and demand for generators immediately
rose. Literally, the first day, the better quality generators were
gone from the stores, while the low quality generators was all one
could find, usually at artificially high prices. Fortunately, it only
lasted about two weeks, as the stores were able to restock their
generators, at high prices, of course. Did they restock with high
quality generators? Nope. Most of what I saw for sale at the local
big box stores was bottom of the line models. It also produced a
supply of "broken" used generators for sale, some of which I've been
considering buying and reselling. Most of them were trashed by E10
ethanol fuel left sitting in the carburetor and are an easy fix.

Decades ago, I read of a proposal for home heating and home power
generation by using home generators powered by natural gas. The big
efficiency boost would come from utilization of waste heat from the
generator, first to heat home water, then space heating. I suppose a
dedicated hobbyist could give it a try by modifying a commercial
generator to run on NG.

Similarly, the idea of "co-generation" was floated, in which small local
plants could burn a variety of fuels - perhaps including trash - to
generate electricity for a community, and pipe waste heat into nearby
buildings.

If California had either of those systems running, PG&E problems would
have much less impact.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Wasn't there a city in Norway that built a garbage burning generating station that was so successful along with recycling that they had to import garbage from other areas in order to keep the generating plant running?

Ah yes. Oslo, Norway.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/30/w...to-energy.html

Cheers

That is interesting but I think it is likely that the Oslo plant must
be highly selective in the garbage that they burn as a number of
places in Asia have experimented in using garbage as fuel for a
electrical generation, Singapore comes to mind here, and the net
results is that it is not financially effective as natural gas or some
other fuel is needed to burn the garbage.

But it is possible that garbage in parts of Asia is actually different
from garbage in Europe. For example, we, here in Thailand, buy no
canned goods and almost no food stuffs packaged in plastic or paper.
Indonesia was similar and very probably Singapore and Malaysia are
also similar, and I suspect that China and Japan are similar.
--
cheers,

John B.


I don't know from Thailand or Singapore but the Japanese are
the absolute experts on municipal refuse incineration.

https://www.japan-talk.com/jt/new/yo...rning-in-Tokyo

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2018/ph240/park-h2/

https://www.japan.go.jp/tomodachi/20...echnology.html

I saw impressive municipal incinerator operations in
suburban Tokyo almost 40 years ago and if anything they're
even better at it now.


But no mention of generating electricity from the incinerators.

Singapore, a small island, built an incinerator attached to their
electrical generating plant and found it necessary to add gas fuel - I
don't know LPG, LNG, whatever - to get the stuff to burn.

As I mentioned, Asian garbage is different. Nearly all "wet" garbage,
i.e., table and cooking scraps, and very little else. Another point,
in most of the poorer Asian nations the garbage is gleaned. People
actually pick over the garbage and sort out everything that can be
sold - scrap paper, plastic bottles, tin cans, etc. so the "garbage"
contains very little that will burn well.
--
cheers,

John B.


China distinguishes between 'wet' and 'burnable' refuse
under the standard 'anything a pig can eat' and sorts
accordingly with typical Chinese penalties for errors of
taxonomy by consumers. Wet gets composted and spread on
fields when not actually fed to pigs.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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