#21
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milling machine
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:52:33 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote: On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 10:53:04 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote: South Bend Lathe manual, 1914, inside back cover, "Before starting to work on a lathe, roll up your sleeves and remove your necktie." From back in the days when machinists wore neckties! They were classier back then. They probably didn't wear eye protection in 1914 either. Yep, googling yields https://www.umassd.edu/about/historyofumassdartmouth/ Things have gotten much safer since then, of course. Safety inflation is real, and obviously not bad up to a point. I taught an intro to machine shop lab (just bare basics) and would come down very hard on a student who omitted eye protection. But I know the full-time machinist in that lab sometimes worked without eye protection, just as I sometimes do on my basement lathe. It's a risk we take based on our judgment of the circumstances. OTOH, I don't think I've ever obeyed the "Never use without eye protection!" warnings that seem to come on things like Harbor Freight screwdrivers. That company probably puts warnings on its rubber erasers. Kind of like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gzDC-2ZO8I I put plastic hats in the same category. - Frank Krygowski Back when I was working at it I wore USAF supplied corrective glasses that were also classified as "safety glasses". When I was in High School I worked one summer in a shop that had machines similar to the photo in your UMass reference. The shop belonged to two old brothers and apparently was originally built by either their father or grandfather - my father remembered it being there when he was a boy. The first job that they gave me was making nuts... on a lathe that the cross slide was calibrated in 128ths of an inch. As an aside, one of the brothers had a Henderson four cylinder motorcycle that probably dated to the 1930's sometime that was in perfect like new condition. He would occasionally ride it to work if it didn't look like rain :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
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#22
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milling machine
On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 08:23:50 +0700, John B.
wrote: On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:21:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: My payment for doing the computers, electrical and motors is that I get to use the mill to make custom knives. Something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98ly5-1bhHU (0:00 to 4:30) I thought that you "knife guys" hand forged the blades. At least that was what Jesse Clift did when he made what was probably the original Bowie knife :-) Some do, but I don't. If you skim through the YouTube videos on knife making, there are different ways to make the blades: Blacksmith forging (heat it up and beat it into shape). Grind, belt sand, or file into shape. Grinding auto leaf springs, used saw blades, or other steel shapes into something resembling a blade. CNC mill or grind to shape. Cheat and buy a kit. I'm currently in the last category and sending my blades to a heat treating shop. The overwhelming majority of the YouTube videos I've watched deal with forging, grinding, or sanding the blade. That's great for making one unique knife, but not suitable for production volume, which is what I'm thinking of doing. Blade Steels: http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/steels.htm http://www.osograndeknives.com/catal...de-steels.html https://www.bladehq.com/cat--Steel-Types--332 Heat Treating: https://evenheat-kiln.com/?p=heat-treating-information Kits and supplies: Woodcraft Kits - https://www.woodcraft.com/categories/knife-kits Knife Kits - http://knifekits.com Texas Knifemakers Supply - http://texasknife.com USA Knife Maker - http://usaknifemaker.com Crazy Crow Trading Post - http://crazycrow.com K&G - http://knifeandgun.com Jantz Supply - http://knifemaking.com Atlanta Cutlery - http://atlantacutlery.com Incidentally, sharpening all my kitchen knives to an edge sharp enough for shaving was NOT a good idea. I'm cutting myself quite often and am slowly destroying my cutting boards and dishes. Paper plates no longer work as my knives cut through the paper. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#23
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milling machine
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:48:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 08:23:50 +0700, John B. wrote: On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:21:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: My payment for doing the computers, electrical and motors is that I get to use the mill to make custom knives. Something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98ly5-1bhHU (0:00 to 4:30) I thought that you "knife guys" hand forged the blades. At least that was what Jesse Clift did when he made what was probably the original Bowie knife :-) Some do, but I don't. If you skim through the YouTube videos on knife making, there are different ways to make the blades: Blacksmith forging (heat it up and beat it into shape). Grind, belt sand, or file into shape. Grinding auto leaf springs, used saw blades, or other steel shapes into something resembling a blade. CNC mill or grind to shape. Cheat and buy a kit. I'm currently in the last category and sending my blades to a heat treating shop. The overwhelming majority of the YouTube videos I've watched deal with forging, grinding, or sanding the blade. That's great for making one unique knife, but not suitable for production volume, which is what I'm thinking of doing. Blade Steels: http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/steels.htm http://www.osograndeknives.com/catal...de-steels.html https://www.bladehq.com/cat--Steel-Types--332 Heat Treating: https://evenheat-kiln.com/?p=heat-treating-information Kits and supplies: Woodcraft Kits - https://www.woodcraft.com/categories/knife-kits Knife Kits - http://knifekits.com Texas Knifemakers Supply - http://texasknife.com USA Knife Maker - http://usaknifemaker.com Crazy Crow Trading Post - http://crazycrow.com K&G - http://knifeandgun.com Jantz Supply - http://knifemaking.com Atlanta Cutlery - http://atlantacutlery.com Incidentally, sharpening all my kitchen knives to an edge sharp enough for shaving was NOT a good idea. I'm cutting myself quite often and am slowly destroying my cutting boards and dishes. Paper plates no longer work as my knives cut through the paper. I don't do kitchen work but periodically my wife hands me a bunch of kitchen knives and says "Sharpen them". Generally these are cheap stainless knives and I've found that simply making a pass across a grinding wheel on each side works pretty well. It produces a sharp edge which is not perfectly smooth, more like a very fine tooth saw which seems to cut better then a perfectly smooth blade. -- Cheers, John B. |
#24
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milling machine
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 20:29:45 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/19/2018 8:09 PM, John B. wrote: On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:43:45 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:47:27 +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote: Jeff Liebermann wrote: What do you think guys, maybe this one is a good choice? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jML8nVSntuE A good choice for doing what? In another thread was the question, I don't read every thread. how do they cut aluminium tubes so that they fit together before welding, e.g. the top and down tube to the head tube? And the answer is a milling machine (and not a press drill). It's called "mitering": https://www.google.com/search?q=mitering+bicycle+tubes A mill with an tiltable head is probably the easiest way to do it. I've watched the process, but have never done it myself. It can also be done with a lathe. I don't know if a drill press will work, probably not. Forget about using a tubing notcher. If the metal is soft enough for a notcher to work, then it's not strong enough to ride. I'm sure the Luna is a good choice for "doing it" only the person who has to pay for it might disagree I don't know anything about Luna mills. Mitering bicycle tubes does not require fabulous precision. A Chinese benchtop mill could be used if you're cheap or desperate. The accuracy is mostly in the jigs and fixtures. A file is accurate enough :-) +1 Since I'm in the 'no two alike' frame repair business, I can miter a top tube at both ends to length with a file faster than the setup on a general purpose mill. http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth8.jpg If you're making a lot of frames to the same geometry, a Marchetti & Lange machine is what you want, but that is not Mr Berg. Way back when machinists did a lot of filing to fit. While it was probably slower then a modern CNC machine it was sure cheaper and you could keep everything in your toolbox :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#25
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milling machine
On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 10:59:44 +0700, John B.
wrote: On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:48:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: Incidentally, sharpening all my kitchen knives to an edge sharp enough for shaving was NOT a good idea. I'm cutting myself quite often and am slowly destroying my cutting boards and dishes. Paper plates no longer work as my knives cut through the paper. I don't do kitchen work but periodically my wife hands me a bunch of kitchen knives and says "Sharpen them". Generally these are cheap stainless knives and I've found that simply making a pass across a grinding wheel on each side works pretty well. It produces a sharp edge which is not perfectly smooth, more like a very fine tooth saw which seems to cut better then a perfectly smooth blade. Disclaimer: I am a beginner on knife making but am learning fast. It depends one what and how you're using the knife to cut. If you draw the knife as if you were sawing through the food, a rough edge is quite superior to a razor sharp edge. However, if you're pushing your way through the food with the knife, the razor edge works better. What I did was buy about 15 assorted knives at a local outdoor flea market and 10 more at a local thrift shop. I used these for practice to learn how to sharpen them and how to modify the shape of the blade. Most were stainless but I also found a few 1095 high carbon steel "Old Hickory" knives. https://www.knivesplus.com/OLD-HICKORY-KNIVES.HTML I bought a Harbor Freight 1x30 belt sander and belt assortment from 80 grit to 800 grit: https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/sanders/1-in-x-30-in-belt-sander-60543.html an angle guide: https://www.amazon.com/Knife-Sharpening-Angle-Guide-Sharpen/dp/B01HVXFP80 and a collection of whetstones: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Whetstone-Knife-Grit-1000-8000-Sharpener-Sharpening-Water-Stone-Stand/222660726466 I also setup a binocular microscope so I could see what I was doing to the edge: http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/microscopes/Olympus%20SZ30/slides/SZ30-01.html After a few frustrating failures, I determined that I could produce a usable but rough edge with the belt sander, and then refine it to a razor sharp edge with the water stones. The sanding might only take a few minutes on the belt sander, but the water stone polishing can easily take hours. I can easily see the difference with the microscope. I have 6" grinder, but I would not use it to sharpen knives. It takes off too much metal too quickly to maintain control. When I tried it, the result was a rather "wavy" edge. Even a belt sander takes off too much metal if you use a rough (80 or 120 grit) belt. If you have a belt sander, try starting with 120 grit to remove the dings and chips. Then use increasingly finer belts until you get to 400 or 800 grit. You can probably just quit there, or if you want a smooth edge, use a succession of water stones (1000 to 3000) to improve on the edge. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#26
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milling machine
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 22:43:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 10:59:44 +0700, John B. wrote: On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:48:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: Incidentally, sharpening all my kitchen knives to an edge sharp enough for shaving was NOT a good idea. I'm cutting myself quite often and am slowly destroying my cutting boards and dishes. Paper plates no longer work as my knives cut through the paper. I don't do kitchen work but periodically my wife hands me a bunch of kitchen knives and says "Sharpen them". Generally these are cheap stainless knives and I've found that simply making a pass across a grinding wheel on each side works pretty well. It produces a sharp edge which is not perfectly smooth, more like a very fine tooth saw which seems to cut better then a perfectly smooth blade. Disclaimer: I am a beginner on knife making but am learning fast. It depends one what and how you're using the knife to cut. If you draw the knife as if you were sawing through the food, a rough edge is quite superior to a razor sharp edge. However, if you're pushing your way through the food with the knife, the razor edge works better. What I did was buy about 15 assorted knives at a local outdoor flea market and 10 more at a local thrift shop. I used these for practice to learn how to sharpen them and how to modify the shape of the blade. Most were stainless but I also found a few 1095 high carbon steel "Old Hickory" knives. https://www.knivesplus.com/OLD-HICKORY-KNIVES.HTML I bought a Harbor Freight 1x30 belt sander and belt assortment from 80 grit to 800 grit: https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/sanders/1-in-x-30-in-belt-sander-60543.html an angle guide: https://www.amazon.com/Knife-Sharpening-Angle-Guide-Sharpen/dp/B01HVXFP80 and a collection of whetstones: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Whetstone-Knife-Grit-1000-8000-Sharpener-Sharpening-Water-Stone-Stand/222660726466 I also setup a binocular microscope so I could see what I was doing to the edge: http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/microscopes/Olympus%20SZ30/slides/SZ30-01.html After a few frustrating failures, I determined that I could produce a usable but rough edge with the belt sander, and then refine it to a razor sharp edge with the water stones. The sanding might only take a few minutes on the belt sander, but the water stone polishing can easily take hours. I can easily see the difference with the microscope. I have 6" grinder, but I would not use it to sharpen knives. It takes off too much metal too quickly to maintain control. When I tried it, the result was a rather "wavy" edge. Even a belt sander takes off too much metal if you use a rough (80 or 120 grit) belt. If you have a belt sander, try starting with 120 grit to remove the dings and chips. Then use increasingly finer belts until you get to 400 or 800 grit. You can probably just quit there, or if you want a smooth edge, use a succession of water stones (1000 to 3000) to improve on the edge. Somewhere around the Net is a site that talks about super sharp, or deadly sharp, or some other fancy name. That guy used plain old emery paper on a flat block to sharpen a knife. I've tried it and it works pretty well except that if you move the blade forward - leading with the sharp edge - it scrapes the abrasive off the paper :-) But it does work pretty well if you pull the blade "backward" with the sharp edge trailing. I usually have a couple pf wood blocks with emery paper glued to one side laying around the bench. If you are cutting something like glass cloth a couple of swipes across the blocks every cut or so keeps a pretty good edge on the knife. I made several "work knives" - sort of a substitute for a folding pocket knife, after I broke mine - out of "All Hard" power hacksaw blades. The edge holds up pretty well to abuse but doesn't "take an edge" as well as say old files. There is a Usenet group "rec.knives" that used to be pretty active but I haven't been there for quite a while. -- Cheers, John B. |
#27
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milling machine
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I don't read every thread. Who does? It's called "mitering": https://www.google.com/search?q=mitering+bicycle+tubes A mill with an tiltable head is probably the easiest way to do it. I've watched the process, but have never done it myself. It can also be done with a lathe. I do have a lathe, only I don't know if it works. Maybe I can repair it. Getting the pipes in place are probably easier with a mill, right? I don't know if a drill press will work, probably not. Forget about using a tubing notcher. If the metal is soft enough for a notcher to work, then it's not strong enough to ride. OK. Mitering bicycle tubes does not require fabulous precision. A Chinese benchtop mill could be used OK, what brands are they? -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#28
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milling machine
AMuzi wrote:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth8.jpg Right, but are the tubes typically that thin? If so I see the point. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#29
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milling machine
AMuzi wrote:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth8.jpg Also, how does one know how much to file away? Like if you have one tube that has diameter A, and another has diameter B, and A B, and you want the second tube to be at an angle X from the first? If we return to the lathe guys they have a small thing with rods that can be pushed back and forth to form a pattern, perhaps something like that can be used to do a template if it is difficult to compute? -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#30
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milling machine
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I don't know if a drill press will work, probably not. What's the problem with a drill press? If the tubes are as thin as in AMuzi's photo, I don't see power being a problem assuming the tubes can be fixed robustly which one has to do anyway with a milling machine? -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
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