#111
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Senior Olympics
"Child" wrote in message ... "Edward Dolan" wrote in message ... the same could be said for all christians - religious jews are responsible for there being any christians in the world today! When the French are no longer Christian, there will still be a France and the French (if they are not overwhelmed by the Muslims). Christianity is not necessary for the French to survive because they forged a nation long ago. However, that is not true of the Jew until recently when they forged the nation of Israel. The Jew has survived down through the ages without a nation precisely because of their strong religion. Without their very peculiar religion (monotheism) the Jews would have passed into history long ago. the secular jews were instrumental in the forming of israel. we obviously believe its necessary too, although sometimes i am not so sure. That is correct, but the orthodox Jews will be the salvation of Israel. The Jews are the most remarkable people in the history of the world. They have survived down through the ages when all other ancient peoples have perished or been absorbed by other peoples and lost to history. And it was all due to their remarkable religion and to their being the people of the Book. Without those two vital elements, they would have gone the way of the ancient Philistines. It has to do with the values that jews have, as part of their religion, I think. Yes, but those values derive solely from their religion. And that religion is based on the written word. It is those written words regarded as sacred that is solely responsible for the Jews survival down to the 21st century. Otherwise, I can't think of any other reason why the Jews should have survied and all those other ancient peoples perished. All well and good. But you will never be able to abandon your religion. It would be suicidal to do so. There is a strong tribal element to being a Jew, but the religion is the key to it all. Its inter-related - the religion and the heritage. They aren't entirely seperatable. Agreed, but the religion is the key to it. Pat Buchanan has put forth the interesting idea that all culture (heritage) comes out of religion. I think he is right about that. We see this in the Muslim world today where most in that world are still religious and they do all seem to have a common culture. Indonesia has a lot in common with Morocco for instance. Religion is enormously important to mankind. Those shared values and the history of oppression will fade - as they already have for most American Jews. Abandon your religion at your peril. The orthodox Jew will save Judaism. I don't think thats so - the numbers of orthodox jews are small and our numbers are huge. Abandon your religion at your peril. Intermarriage is the beginning of the end for the Jew as it is for the Catholic. The religion will eventually be lost and so will the identification of being Jewish as intermarriage continues generation after generation. It will be an uphill struggle to maintain your identification as a Jew. Eventually, you or your children will be absorbed into the gentile world. It was ever thus. Not my children, I hope. They will be raised to embrace their culture. Chances are your children, being half gentile themselves, will marry gentiles and so your grandchildren will be one further step removed from you and your parents. Eventually a heritage that is not anchored in religion will be nothing but hollow observances - sort of like the Midwest Irish. We celebrate all the worse things about Ireland. It is all fake and phony-balony. St.Pat's Day - what an abomination! The secular Jew will become as American as any other ethnic group given enough time and lack of religion. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it means the Jew will finally pass into history (except for Israel of course). It is only Judaism that has kept the Jew peculiarly Jewish. -- Regards, Ed Dolan - Minnesota |
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#112
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Senior Olympics
"Floyd L. Davidson" wrote in message ... "Edward Dolan" wrote: "Child" wrote: "Edward Dolan" wrote: My parents did not get married until your age (36) because the Great Depression prevented it (nobody had any money). My mother had three children and so can you if that is what you want. You have lots of time and you will be a good parent because you have acquired maturity as had my mother. That makes all the difference. Your children will be lucky to have mature parents. I agree about maturity being a good thing for parenting - i would have made a horrible parent at 20. Although some of my late parent friends are the most overindulgent parents ever - rearing some spoiled brats from hell. I will not raise a brat It is almost impossible to over indulge a child, provided that you love the I *totally* agree with that statement. child and the child knows that he is loved. That makes all the difference. Did you know that are some cultures where the parents never discipline the child (certain Indian tribes and I believe the Eskimos). Of course there is never any separation of the child from the parents which might have a lot to do with it. But it is not true that children are never disciplined; rather there is *never* a reason to use physical violence. The point being made, in reference to Indian and Eskimo child rearing, is correct though and just misstated. I think this is a *very* important subject, which all parents should hopefully be taught. Indian and Eskimo children are taught to respect themselves and others in a way that is far more effective than using physical discipline. Peer pressure, which in American society is often a negative influence, is used to provide positive guidance. And while this is not a case of there never being separation between the parent and child, it is the same mechanism on a much grander scale: no separation from a large extended family that equates to the entire community. Basically, if you live in a small village and you are related to most of the people to some degree, it just simply makes life *much* easier if you are a good kid than if you are not! Everyone knows everything you've done, and they tell you about it! Every old man knows every child by name, and knows what they've been doing lately. Obviously if a child gets positive feedback from every direction, it has a fantastic effect. Rather than celebrate events like birthdays, they celebrate milestones of accomplishment on an individual basis instead of in groups. When a child first accomplishes some specific thing, everyone makes a big deal out of it. Hence when a boy catches his first fish, or later his first seal, it is cause for something similar to a "birthday party". But there are some methods which are very different too, and very interesting. When a child is born they are said to take the place of a recent elder who has passed on. Western observers typically misunderstood this, and recorded that they believed in reincarnation. It's not. What is passed from the elder to the child is *respect*. That child becomes the object of the memories of love and respect that were previously directed at the elder. That allows memory of the elder to live on in everyone's memory, because they daily refer to the child by the same names, and remind the child of exactly that relationship. The child of course is taught to live up to that respect, because the child *is* that elder in the memories of everyone. Actually, there might be several relationships of that type developed during the formative years, and as a child most individuals have several "names", all of which refer to a relationship with someone else. Occasionally one of these names sticks, and is used throughout a person's life. It is a wonderful mechanism that creates very responsible children. One of the side effects, for example, is that sibling rivalry which results in fighting between children non-existent. Instead children learn to enjoy sharing, and develop a family bond that is really hard to describe to anyone who's never seen it. One example shows up in something which relates to the subject of this thread. It can best be seen at the World Indian Eskimo Olympics, though it shows up in just about any competition among Native peoples. Serious competitors do everything they can to *help* everyone do their best. Who is the best coach for any given event? The current first place competitor is the one who will be seen coaching the next challenger! ... Being carefree has its high points, Eddie! Only when you are young. As you grow older, being carefree pales and eventually palls. Life is a circle. Eventually being carefree is what makes old age fun, and keeps life worth living even in the face of an end. -- FloydL. Davidson http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) Many thanks for the wonderful and informative post Floyd. I think I knew some of what you said in your message about the Eskimos as I took several courses in cultural anthropology when I was in college. That is what I was relying on when I said what I did about the child rearing practices of some Indian and Eskimo cultures. But with the passage of time you only recollect imperfectly what you may have read 40 years ago. You are of course right in that the children are disciplined, but physical force is not used. There are some religious cults that seem to think that children need to be beaten, shamed and ridiculed in order to become God fearing - or whatever. We could learn a lot from the Eskimo about how to raise children. As much as I hate Hillary Clinton, she is right about it taking a village to raise a child. Back in the 40's we kids could never get away with anything because everyone in town knew everyone else and would report you to your parents if you were up to no good. That is the way it should be everywhere, but I am afraid society is breaking down rather badly in our large metros. Small towns and villages are ideal for not only raising a child, but for all men and women. Someday people are going to wake up and realize that the Midwest is a paradise. It is full of small towns which are ideal for living a humane and civilized life. -- Best Regards, Ed Dolan - Minnesota |
#113
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Senior Olympics
"Child" wrote in message ... "Edward Dolan" wrote in message ... [...] Only when you are young. As you grow older, being carefree pales and eventually palls. I hope that after the kids are grown i get to be carefree again. Quoth the raven, "Nevermore." And the raven, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door; And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming. And the lamplight o'er him streaming throws his shadow on the floor; And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor Shall be lifted---nevermore! -- Regards, Ed Dolan - Minnesota |
#114
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Senior Olympics
"Edward Dolan" wrote:
"Floyd L. Davidson" wrote: Many thanks for the wonderful and informative post Floyd. I think I knew And thank you for the kind words. some of what you said in your message about the Eskimos as I took several courses in cultural anthropology when I was in college. That is what I was relying on when I said what I did about the child rearing practices of some Indian and Eskimo cultures. But with the passage of time you only recollect imperfectly what you may have read 40 years ago. You are of course right in that the children are disciplined, but physical force is not used. There are some religious cults that seem to think that children need to be beaten, shamed and ridiculed in order to become God fearing - or whatever. We could learn a lot from the Eskimo about how to raise children. As much as I hate Hillary Clinton, she is right about it taking a village to raise a child. Back in the 40's we kids could never get away with anything because everyone in town knew everyone else and would report you to your parents if you were up to no good. That is the way it should be everywhere, but I am afraid society is breaking down rather badly in our large metros. Small towns and villages are ideal for not only raising a child, but for all men and women. Someday people are going to wake up and realize that the Midwest is a paradise. It is full of small towns which are ideal for living a humane and civilized life. Except that I think Hillary Clinton should would make the best President we could imagine, I agree totally on all of the above. I merely take it a few steps farther because I don't think those Midwest towns are tight enough! I've got a neat story about that... My eldest son followed a young lady home to her village when he was about 19 years old. Nice young lady. She lived in the village where his maternal Grandparents were born, so he was related to better than half the people there. He stayed a couple days and got on a plane and left. He told me with a chuckle, "Too damned tight!" Of course, she really was a very nice young lady, so he went back again. And again! And when things didn't work out with that young lady he discovered another one! Actually, apparently he discovered a *lot* of nice young ladies because he'd call his mother and mention a name to her, but invariably she would say, "Oh, that's your second cousin, she's the daughter of...". I guess life was rough, but once he'd gotten used to Kipnuk, a village of about 600-700 people, he just never left. He married a local girl and now has a teenager of his own. He just loves how tight that little village is. It's a great place to raise kids. And as you say, it's also a great place for adults! -- FloydL. Davidson http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) |
#115
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Senior Olympics
"Floyd L. Davidson" wrote in message ... [...] I guess life was rough, but once he'd gotten used to Kipnuk, a village of about 600-700 people, he just never left. He married a local girl and now has a teenager of his own. He just loves how tight that little village is. It's a great place to raise kids. And as you say, it's also a great place for adults! It always greatly amuses me to hear others tell of how great their cities are in which they live. They obviously know nothing of where man came from in terms of his evolution. We are designed to live in quite small human groupings. Even that village you describe above is quite large in terms of what our evolution has prepared us for. Everything began to go haywire with the advent of agriculture some few thousands of years ago (a mere blink in time compared to our total existence on the earth). Well, there is no going back, but those fortunate enough to be able to live in small towns and villages will more closely realize their humanity. We humans need "tightness". The anonymity of the large city is an abomination. There are lots of very small villages scattered about here in southwest Minnesota. I am amazed when I go to these small places how everyone seems to know everyone else and all about them too. Not everyone necessarily likes everyone else, but there is a civility that prevails in those small places because you are going to run into that person over and over in the course of your life there. These are not small minded people at all. I find them to be quite broad minded about most everything and very tolerant of differences and failings. Sometimes I think Sinclair Lewis did not know what the hell he was writing about. About New York City where I lived for many years - it's a great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there! -- Regards, Ed Dolan - Minnesota |
#116
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Senior Olympics
"Edward Dolan" wrote in message ... "Tom Sherman" wrote in message ... Child wrote: ... Cursing is part of my heritage that I embrace. I learned it from my family. We are proud, talented cursers.... But anyone who replies to an Usenet post with the response, "No ****" does not deserve the privilege of posting to Usenet. -- Tom Sherman - Quad City Area I do not think "AN Usenet post" can be correct. It does not sound right. Whereas "A Usenet post" does sound right. Normally "an" before a word that starts with a vowel is right, but I wonder if there aren't some exceptions to that rule. What do you think? Apparently "a" vs "an" has to do with the SOUND of the starting letter, not the letter itself. Because "usenet" is pronounced "yewsnet" it needs an "a" instead of an "an" |
#117
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Senior Olympics
"Edward Dolan" wrote in message ... There are lots of very small villages scattered about here in southwest Minnesota. I am amazed when I go to these small places how everyone seems to know everyone else and all about them too. Not everyone necessarily likes everyone else, but there is a civility that prevails in those small places because you are going to run into that person over and over in the course of your life there. These are not small minded people at all. I find them to be quite broad minded about most everything and very tolerant of differences and failings. Sometimes I think Sinclair Lewis did not know what the hell he was writing about. i just got back from a work related visit to Nome, Alaska, a town of 3,000. Probably half native and half other. It was a lovely experience - everyone was so friendly, and genuinely nice, but there appear to be no secrets! I now want to move to Nome. Boytoy says he won't make it through the winter.....Ah well. |
#118
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Senior Olympics
"Child" wrote in message ... "Edward Dolan" wrote in message ... "Tom Sherman" wrote in message ... Child wrote: ... Cursing is part of my heritage that I embrace. I learned it from my family. We are proud, talented cursers.... But anyone who replies to an Usenet post with the response, "No ****" does not deserve the privilege of posting to Usenet. -- Tom Sherman - Quad City Area I do not think "AN Usenet post" can be correct. It does not sound right. Whereas "A Usenet post" does sound right. Normally "an" before a word that starts with a vowel is right, but I wonder if there aren't some exceptions to that rule. What do you think? Apparently "a" vs "an" has to do with the SOUND of the starting letter, not the letter itself. Because "usenet" is pronounced "yewsnet" it needs an "a" instead of an "an" Yes, I think you are right about that. That is why it is important sometimes to sound out the words. I could pull out my old college English composition grammar book and I am sure that that is the explanation we would find there. Now if only you would have put a period at the end of your second sentence, you would have been perfect. But note how Mr. Tom is out to lunch whenever he gets called on a mistake. This is so typical of those who are not secure about themselves. I own up to my mistakes easily because I KNOW that everyone is making mistakes all the time. It is part of the human condition. The best professors I ever had at college admitted that they were ignorant about many things, even in their own fields of expertise. The worst professors I ever had would never admit to not knowing all there was to know about something. I always thought those types were ridiculous. -- Regards, Ed Dolan - Minnesota |
#119
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Senior Olympics
"Child" wrote in message ... "Edward Dolan" wrote in message ... There are lots of very small villages scattered about here in southwest Minnesota. I am amazed when I go to these small places how everyone seems to know everyone else and all about them too. Not everyone necessarily likes everyone else, but there is a civility that prevails in those small places because you are going to run into that person over and over in the course of your life there. These are not small minded people at all. I find them to be quite broad minded about most everything and very tolerant of differences and failings. Sometimes I think Sinclair Lewis did not know what the hell he was writing about. i just got back from a work related visit to Nome, Alaska, a town of 3,000. Probably half native and half other. It was a lovely experience - everyone was so friendly, and genuinely nice, but there appear to be no secrets! I now want to move to Nome. Boytoy says he won't make it through the winter.....Ah well. The problem with Alaska and all far northern places is that you are living on the fringes of where humans can live. Please take note of the fact that there are no great numbers of people living on the continent of Antarctica - and for good reason. You need to start thinking about "going south". That "going north" business is strictly for the Eskimo and the polar bear. As Scott lay dying of starvation and exposure in his tent in the Antarctic cold, he wrote in his journal ... My God! This is a horrible place! I think that just about says it all. Do not even THINK about moving to Nome. Seattle is your true home, not the frozen tundra of the North. -- Regards, Ed Dolan - Minnesota |
#120
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Senior Olympics
"Edward Dolan" wrote:
"Child" wrote: i just got back from a work related visit to Nome, Alaska, a town of 3,000. Probably half native and half other. It was a lovely experience - everyone was so friendly, and genuinely nice, but there appear to be no secrets! I now want to move to Nome. Boytoy says he won't make it through the winter.....Ah well. The problem with Alaska and all far northern places is that you are living on the fringes of where humans can live. Please take note of the fact that there are no great numbers of people living on the continent of Antarctica - and for good reason. You need to start thinking about "going south". That "going north" business is strictly for the Eskimo and the polar bear. What? You think Eskimos aren't humans? Her big problem was with the selection of locations! First, she lives in Los Anchorage, where they grow palm trees and Texans. (The Texans make up for a lack of coconuts on the palm trees.) It's just *not* suitable for human habitation! Second, she visits Nome of all places. She clearly waited too long (folks don't do anything in Nome that doesn't lead to divorce), and should have visited there *before* she got hitched. Nome's a nice place to visit, but really... it's just another Whiteman's town. As Scott lay dying of starvation and exposure in his tent in the Antarctic cold, he wrote in his journal ... My God! This is a horrible place! I think Visit Bethel, Kotzebue or Barrow. Get farther away from the Alaska State Legislature! Go to places where people actually know how to live in the Arctic. Where they say, "My GOD, this is a *wonderful* place!" that just about says it all. Do not even THINK about moving to Nome. Seattle is your true home, not the frozen tundra of the North. You realize that it *rains* in Seattle???? Yech! Plus, and Beth probably won't understand this one yet, but the fact is that south of the Alaska Range, the snow isn't crunchy. If the snow don't crunch when you walk on it, go NORTH! -- FloydL. Davidson http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) |
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