|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Austin to Evaluate Local Emergency Room Data to Determine Whether or Not to Implement an All-Ages Helmet Law
On 17 Oct 2006 13:01:28 -0700, "gds" wrote:
Motorcar drivers and passengers would be a good place. There are a large number of head injuries and deaths resulting from head injury amongst occupants of motocars; they can wear heavy helmets that are truly designed (unlike cycle helmets) to significantly reduce these injuries, and they can afford to purchase them. That we have pro-helmet and pro-MHL posters in this newgroup who are not (as far as we know) advocating for such more sensible laws might seem odd, except that they are the same ones that can't count, can't do sums, brag about ignoring the data, ceaselessly insult people who point out their errors, and in general show that pro-helmet zealots and pro-helmet-law zealots do their "cause" no good by their mere existance. And a Good Thing too. Just wondering what meds you are on. I can't remember a single person posting here who is in favor of MHL's. Google "I'd like one in your jurisdiction that was well and truly enforced" and check the posters in this htread. |
Ads |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Austin to Evaluate Local Emergency Room Data to Determine Whether or Not to Implement an All-Ages Helmet Law
On 17 Oct 2006 21:03:47 GMT, Helmut Springer
wrote: SMS wrote: Does it? I mean besides "ER people belive it would have made a significant difference"? The ER evidence is overwhelming in terms of how much better helmet wearers fare versus non-helmet wearers, in head-impact crashes. Care to provide a pointer to a scientific quantification? That debate is long over. Ah, I understand you are a strong believer... No one (at least no one that has a clue) disputes the fact that helmet wearers do better in head-impact crashes than non-helmet wearers. The question is "significant difference". "...the idea behind the helmet law being to preserve a brain whose judgment is so poor, it does not even try to avoid the cracking of the head it's in." Jerry Seinfeld. I wonder what he fed his brain to come up with the conclusion, if it was scientific evidence he should publish. "Jerry Seinfeld" is what passes in the United Sates of America for a comedian. Draw the obvious conclusion when a pro-helmet zealot uses such a satement as support for their position. |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Austin to Evaluate Local Emergency Room Data to Determine Whether or Not to Implement an All-Ages Helmet Law
Q: What's worse than a rabid Anti-helmet Psycho?
A: An Anti-helmet Psycho totally devoid of a sense of humor or the absurd. IOW, a Psychotic Anti-helmet Robot. Presenting "jtaylor": wrote: On 17 Oct 2006 21:03:47 GMT, Helmut Springer wrote: SMS wrote: Does it? I mean besides "ER people belive it would have made a significant difference"? The ER evidence is overwhelming in terms of how much better helmet wearers fare versus non-helmet wearers, in head-impact crashes. Care to provide a pointer to a scientific quantification? That debate is long over. Ah, I understand you are a strong believer... No one (at least no one that has a clue) disputes the fact that helmet wearers do better in head-impact crashes than non-helmet wearers. The question is "significant difference". "...the idea behind the helmet law being to preserve a brain whose judgment is so poor, it does not even try to avoid the cracking of the head it's in." Jerry Seinfeld. I wonder what he fed his brain to come up with the conclusion, if it was scientific evidence he should publish. "Jerry Seinfeld" is what passes in the United Sates of America for a comedian. Draw the obvious conclusion when a pro-helmet zealot uses such a satement as support for their position. |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Austin to Evaluate Local Emergency Room Data to Determine Whether or Not to Implement an All-Ages Helmet Law
|
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Austin to Evaluate Local Emergency Room Data to Determine Whether or Not to Implement an All-Ages Helmet Law
gds who? wrote: wrote: On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:35:32 GMT, Werehatrack wrote: Even more rational would be to look at the real number of incidents and then consider that in the light of the number of riders and miles travelled. Unless they're getting an awfully large number of ER visits involving head injuries, a helmet law seems like a poor place to start improving bike safety; the place to spend the money is where you can achieve a reduction in the number of incidents overall, not in trying to mitigate one type of injury in a group that's probably not very large to start with. Motorcar drivers and passengers would be a good place. There are a large number of head injuries and deaths resulting from head injury amongst occupants of motocars; they can wear heavy helmets that are truly designed (unlike cycle helmets) to significantly reduce these injuries, and they can afford to purchase them. That we have pro-helmet and pro-MHL posters in this newgroup who are not (as far as we know) advocating for such more sensible laws might seem odd, except that they are the same ones that can't count, can't do sums, brag about ignoring the data, ceaselessly insult people who point out their errors, and in general show that pro-helmet zealots and pro-helmet-law zealots do their "cause" no good by their mere existance. And a Good Thing too. Just wondering what meds you are on. I can't remember a single person posting here who is in favor of MHL's. Beyond that those who actively promote helmet use for others is also pretty small. If you read the threads you have a fair number of folks saying something like "using a helmet, especially in certain circumstances makes sense to me, so I'll choose to do so" That is hardly a zealot postion being staked out. It is also interesting, at least to me, that you can manage to sound so angry over this. Why is it so important? Why the hell should we let a bunch or know-nothing's force us to wear ineffective foam hats? Unless you believe in corporate welfare for helmet manufacturers, distributors and retailers, that is. -- Tom Sherman - Here, not there. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Austin to Evaluate Local Emergency Room Data to Determine Whether or Not to Implement an All-Ages Helmet Law
Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote: Why the hell should we let a bunch or know-nothing's force us to wear ineffective foam hats? If you don't want to wear a helmet, don't. Do you really think you will be jailed for flouting a bicycle helmet law? Unless you believe in corporate welfare for helmet manufacturers, distributors and retailers, that is. -- Tom Sherman - Here, not there. |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Austin to Evaluate Local Emergency Room Data to Determine Whether or Not to Implement an All-Ages Helmet Law
gds wrote: Why are you so quick to give such a big discount to the opinions of ER doctors? While I understand the problems of any group using anecdotal experience to "prove" a point; it is certainly the case that these "opinions" if widely held by a large number of ER docs have some importance in pointing us to the "truth." The last statement is vague enough to be true. That is, the opinions of a large number of ER docs might point us to the truth - which is that ER docs are competent at repairing damage, but not at evaluating the efficacy of preventive measures. FWIW, I know one ER doc very well. I won't destroy his privacy by giving his name, but he lives in a state that fairly recently instituted a MHL for kids. His judgement, based on ER presentations he's seen? The MHL made no noticeable difference. He dismisses it as worthless. I'll also remind readers that, a few years ago, we had one poster who crashed, was taken to an ER, and was asked by the attending physician "Were you wearing a helmet?" The cyclist said "Yes," and the physician said "It's a good thing. It probably saved your life." But the cyclist had lied. He just didn't want an obnoxious lecture. The ER doc was so swayed by pro-helmet propaganda that it completely distorted his judgement. Doctors tend to be pretty intelligent, of course. But they are not necessarily competent outside their specialty. If you want to determine the efficacy of helmets, ask someone who understands numbers, and has spent time actually studying the data. - Frank Krygowski |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Austin to Evaluate Local Emergency Room Data to Determine Whether or Not to Implement an All-Ages Helmet Law
Frank "Limp Willy" Krygowski, a notorious Anti-helmet Psycho, makes a
limp argument: wrote: gds wrote: Why are you so quick to give such a big discount to the opinions of ER doctors? While I understand the problems of any group using anecdotal experience to "prove" a point; it is certainly the case that these "opinions" if widely held by a large number of ER docs have some importance in pointing us to the "truth." The last statement is vague enough to be true. That is, the opinions of a large number of ER docs might point us to the truth - which is that ER docs are competent at repairing damage, but not at evaluating the efficacy of preventive measures. FWIW, I know one ER doc very well. I won't destroy his privacy by giving his name, but he lives in a state that fairly recently instituted a MHL for kids. His judgement, based on ER presentations he's seen? The MHL made no noticeable difference. He dismisses it as worthless. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Unsubstantiated Bull****. What else would one expect from a notorious Anti-helmet Psycho? |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Austin to Evaluate Local Emergency Room Data to Determine Whether or Not to Implement an All-Ages Helmet Law
SMS wrote: "http://keyetv.com/topstories/local_story_284175358.html" For anyone new, here's what to expect from such a study. I'll illustrate with several data points: Cyclist #1 is a fairly well-off, middle-class person. He's bought the propaganda (that cycling head injuries are common and severe) and bought a helmet. He transported his bike to the bike trail, and rode off the edge of the pavement. When he fell, he bumped his helmet lightly on the ground. (If he hadn't worn it, his head would have actually missed the ground.) Because he's worried about head injury, he'll drive to the ER "just in case." After all, his job provides insurance coverage, and his policy pays for 100% ER visits. He'll show up, the staff will find no signs of head injury, they'll scrub out his slight road rash on his knee and send him home. And they'll check the boxes "Helmet" and "No head injury." Cyclist #2 is a low income person who works at two menial jobs. He rides his bike to and from the jobs. He rode facing traffic, as usual, and got surprised by a car pulling out from a driveway. To avoid collision, he swerved, hit the curb with his tire, flipped, and caught himself with his hands. His head lightly touched his head on the pavement, about the same as #1's helmet touch. He's got a little scrape on his head. But he hasn't had time or inclination to read the scare stories about head injuries. And he's got no insurance, so if he goes to the ER, he pays the full bill. He says "Hell, I've had worse bumps on the basketball court." He washes his scrape when he gets to work and works the full 8 hours. His little scab falls off in ten days. And he's not recorded at all. Cyclist #3 is another low income guy. He rode like #2, but he wasn't so lucky. He got hit by that car. Fortunately, he was going slow and so was the car, but he took a pretty good hit to the head. He walks his bent bike back to the housing project and calls in sick, because he's feeling kind of dazed, and his cut is still bleeding a bit. His significant other says "I know you don't have insurance, but you better get to the hospital. You're bleeding, and that cut needs stitches. Don't be a fool." He doesn't want to go, because it will cost a fortune. He'd ignore her, but she's scared, and he doesn't want another fight, so he goes in. They call it a mild concussion, they stitch his cut, and they charge him hundreds of bucks that he can't afford. He thinks "Damn - if it were just a little bit less messy, I'd have saved myself weeks of pay." And they check "No helmet, head injury." Do these three data points show that helmets prevent serious head injury? No, sorry. They show that people who are prosperous enough to buy helmets are likely prosperous enough to go to the ER "just to be sure," even though they would have had no serious head injury without the helmet. They show that people who can't afford helmets will present to an ER only if they really do have some significant injury. They show that helmets can be a marker of prosperity, and prosperous people behave differently than poor people. And they show that voluntary choice of helmets introduces sampling bias into case-control studies. Of course, most people will not understand such factors. Helmet promoters who do understand them will ignore such factors. They'll pretend that everybody has the same inclination to rush to the ER, and that all prosperous fraidy-cats would have been dead if they'd not had 3/4" styrofoam to save their lives. They might even post here, saying "The ER evidence is overwhelming." - Frank Krygowski |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
An experiment to prove the helmet law proponants RIGHT (or wrong) | David | Recumbent Biking | 65 | December 21st 04 06:42 AM |
Rec.Bicycles Frequently Asked Questions Posting Part 1/5 | Mike Iglesias | General | 4 | October 29th 04 07:11 AM |
First Helmet : jury is out. | Walter Mitty | General | 125 | June 26th 04 02:00 AM |
Reports from Sweden | Garry Jones | General | 17 | October 14th 03 05:23 PM |
Reports from Sweden | Garry Jones | Social Issues | 14 | October 14th 03 05:23 PM |