Campy rear derailleurs excessive dish and Ergo speed changes to freewheel/cassette

Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
site, but did not see any follow up information. I don't want any
predished campy built wheels either.

As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
freewheel only.

ddog wrote:
Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
site, but did not see any follow up information.

I'll presume you typed this incorrectly. If Rivendell really said dish
is attributable to the rear derailleur, they are as clueless as a rock
about bicycles. Rear derailleurs have nothing to do with wheel dish.
Campagnolo rear hubs have more dish than 9/8/7 speed Shimano hubs.
Cassette hubs. Due to bearing placement. I think Shimnao uses the
steel hub body itself to support the outermost bearing while with
Campagnolo the outermost bearing is in the hub shell itself. And the
Campagnolo aluminum hub body does not support the wheel. This is also
why Campagnolo 9/10 rear hubs are considerably lighter than Shimano 9
speed rear hubs. Aluminum compared to steel hub bodies.

But Shimano has adopted the Campagnolo bearing placement on their 10
speed hubs. 10 speed Dura Ace anyway. Not sure how the 10 speed
Ultegra hubs are made. 10 speed Dura Ace hubs have aluminum hub bodies
and the outermost bearing is inside the hub shell itself. And the Dura
Ace 10 speed rear hub is comparable in weight to the Campagnolo rear
hub.

Do a search on this forum and you can find entries about the Dura Ace
10 speed hubs to read about its bearing placement.

As for Campagnolo having excessive dish, I have several Campagnolo rear
wheels on Record and Chorus hubs that have held up just fine. Even
with more dish than Shimano, they can be built into very high quality
wheels. Maybe the difference in dish might make a difference on a 100
pound loaded touring bike. Or a tandem with heavy riders maybe. For
road riding, it makes no difference. Just something for the bike shops
pushing Shimano to talk about.



I don't want any
predished campy built wheels either.

As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
freewheel only.

Only way to change the spacing on Ergo shifters is to change the shift
disk. 9 or 10 speed disks fit in 1999 onwards shifters. I think 8 or
9 will go into pre 1999 Ergo shifters. Best to contact Peter at
Vecchios to see which disks fit in which Ergo models. Not sure there
ever was a 7 speed Ergo shifter. But maybe your freewheel spacing is
similar to an 8 speed Ergo movement and you would just end up with an
unused click. Similar to how some people use 10 speed Ergo with 9
speed Shimano cassettes.

On 2007-01-11, wrote:
ddog wrote:
Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
site, but did not see any follow up information.

I'll presume you typed this incorrectly. If Rivendell really said dish
is attributable to the rear derailleur, they are as clueless as a rock
about bicycles. Rear derailleurs have nothing to do with wheel dish.
Campagnolo rear hubs have more dish than 9/8/7 speed Shimano hubs.
Cassette hubs. Due to bearing placement. I think Shimnao uses the
steel hub body itself to support the outermost bearing while with
Campagnolo the outermost bearing is in the hub shell itself.

Campagnolo hubs do have bearings inside the freehub part. Two sets in
the freehub and two in the hub body.

The difference, as I understand it, is that on a Shimano hub, the
freehub and hub body are one-piece. On a Campag on they're just sort of
slotted together and it's all held there by nuts at the ends.

But I may still have this wrong. Hopefully someone will correct.

ddog wrote:
Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
site, but did not see any follow up information. I don't want any
predished campy built wheels either.

This makes no sense. Campag hubs are 1mm 'more dished' than most
others. The rear derailleur is no different as to throw of any rear
derailleur.


As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
freewheel only.

Any Campag Ergo, from 1991 till 1997 can be either 8s or 9s, with the
appropriate spacing. 1999 and later ERGO can be 8, 9 or 10, just by
switching the shift disc.

wrote:
ddog wrote:
Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
site, but did not see any follow up information.

I'll presume you typed this incorrectly. If Rivendell really said dish
is attributable to the rear derailleur, they are as clueless as a rock
about bicycles. Rear derailleurs have nothing to do with wheel dish.
Campagnolo rear hubs have more dish than 9/8/7 speed Shimano hubs.
Cassette hubs. Due to bearing placement. I think Shimnao uses the
steel hub body itself to support the outermost bearing while with
Campagnolo the outermost bearing is in the hub shell itself. And the
Campagnolo aluminum hub body does not support the wheel. This is also
why Campagnolo 9/10 rear hubs are considerably lighter than Shimano 9
speed rear hubs. Aluminum compared to steel hub bodies.

But Shimano has adopted the Campagnolo bearing placement on their 10
speed hubs. 10 speed Dura Ace anyway. Not sure how the 10 speed
Ultegra hubs are made.


Just like the so called '9s' hubs. A little fatter hub body but 'guts'
the same as 6500.

10 speed Dura Ace hubs have aluminum hub bodies
and the outermost bearing is inside the hub shell itself. And the Dura
Ace 10 speed rear hub is comparable in weight to the Campagnolo rear
hub.

Do a search on this forum and you can find entries about the Dura Ace
10 speed hubs to read about its bearing placement.

As for Campagnolo having excessive dish, I have several Campagnolo rear
wheels on Record and Chorus hubs that have held up just fine. Even
with more dish than Shimano, they can be built into very high quality
wheels. Maybe the difference in dish might make a difference on a 100
pound loaded touring bike. Or a tandem with heavy riders maybe. For
road riding, it makes no difference. Just something for the bike shops
pushing Shimano to talk about.



I don't want any
predished campy built wheels either.

As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
freewheel only.

Only way to change the spacing on Ergo shifters is to change the shift
disk. 9 or 10 speed disks fit in 1999 onwards shifters. I think 8 or
9 will go into pre 1999 Ergo shifters. Best to contact Peter at
Vecchios to see which disks fit in which Ergo models. Not sure there
ever was a 7 speed Ergo shifter. But maybe your freewheel spacing is
similar to an 8 speed Ergo movement and you would just end up with an
unused click. Similar to how some people use 10 speed Ergo with 9
speed Shimano cassettes.

Thanks Guys! That makes sense.

I hope I didn't slander Rivendell, because it was only a sentence that
was not understood properly. Whoops. They seem to be a fine company
with some unique products.

The bottom line is I was trying to calculate if the Campy rear
derailleur (and what models possible - 1999 and on of all models-?)
could be used for the ergo 8 with an IRD 7 sp freewheel which would be
5mm center to center sprockets, just like Campy 8 speed.

So the rear fork spacing was a question if it required for some reason
a large wheel dish, but I won't be using Campy wheels anyway with IRD
(5, 6, 7) or Shimano (7) freewheel.

I assumethe same sprocket center to center 5.0mm before and after 1999
for Campy 8 sp from my sprocket spacing Bible index on Sheldon's site
(Sproket Spacing table near bottom of link's page).

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html

Ergo would just be an option I could do later, as I like their better
water resistance brake hood design, rebuildable parts, and now I just
found out can switch speeds with disc parts. But I don't need ergo now,
but would like to have that option if I need it later.


Thanks Again!

Ben C wrote:
On 2007-01-11, wrote:
ddog wrote:
Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
site, but did not see any follow up information.

I'll presume you typed this incorrectly. If Rivendell really said dish
is attributable to the rear derailleur, they are as clueless as a rock
about bicycles. Rear derailleurs have nothing to do with wheel dish.
Campagnolo rear hubs have more dish than 9/8/7 speed Shimano hubs.
Cassette hubs. Due to bearing placement. I think Shimnao uses the
steel hub body itself to support the outermost bearing while with
Campagnolo the outermost bearing is in the hub shell itself.

Campagnolo hubs do have bearings inside the freehub part. Two sets in
the freehub and two in the hub body.

Yes. But the bearings in the hub body are just to allow it to turn
when coasting. They are not weight bearing bearings like the ones
inside the hub shell.



The difference, as I understand it, is that on a Shimano hub, the
freehub and hub body are one-piece.

No. You can easily take the steel Shimano hub body off the hub shell
with a 10mm Allen wrench. Just take the axle, cones, spacers, grease,
grease guard out and you can see the 6 sided opening for the 10mm Allen
wrench to fit into. The inside of the steel Shimano hub body is
actually the cup for the outer most bearings on the Shimano rear hub.
The Shimano hub body fits over splines forged into the hub shell. A
thin washer goes between the steel hub body and the aluminum hub shell.




On a Campag on they're just sort of
slotted together and it's all held there by nuts at the ends.

But I may still have this wrong. Hopefully someone will correct.

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:28:42 -0800, ddog wrote:

Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
site, but did not see any follow up information. I don't want any
predished campy built wheels either.

As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
freewheel only.

This whole thing is disingenuous. What do they mean by excessive? Does
it mean that you can't build a reliable wheel with Campy spacing? That is
evidently false; there are thousands of reliable wheels out there,
including mine. There is a large dose of retro-grouchiness in anything
from Rivendell; take their advice with a pinch of salt.

If you _want_ to stick with 7-speed, then perhaps Shimano would be better,
but IIRC those wheels had 126mm spacing; if the frame is newish, it would
have 130mm spacing. Not a problem with steel, may be with other
materials. But I don't get why you would prefer 7-speed over 9. 10-speed
parts are still more expensive than they should be, but 9-speed offers
you, well, 9 speeds, and the components are essentially the same price as
7-speed stuff. I just don't see the downside.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
_`\(,_ | conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw
(_)/ (_) |

David L. Johnson wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:28:42 -0800, ddog wrote:

Campy rear derailleurs require excessive dish according to Rivendell's
site, but did not see any follow up information. I don't want any
predished campy built wheels either.

As well, can ergo's be adjusted to different freewheel/cassette center
to center width for different speeds or is that better left to
freewheel/cassette spacers. Spacer availability may be a problem with
IRD freewheel and point towards Shimano, if considering 7 speed
freewheel only.

This whole thing is disingenuous. What do they mean by excessive? Does
it mean that you can't build a reliable wheel with Campy spacing? That is
evidently false; there are thousands of reliable wheels out there,
including mine. There is a large dose of retro-grouchiness in anything
from Rivendell; take their advice with a pinch of salt.

If you _want_ to stick with 7-speed, then perhaps Shimano would be better,
but IIRC those wheels had 126mm spacing; if the frame is newish, it would
have 130mm spacing. Not a problem with steel, may be with other
materials. But I don't get why you would prefer 7-speed over 9. 10-speed
parts are still more expensive than they should be, but 9-speed offers
you, well, 9 speeds, and the components are essentially the same price as
7-speed stuff. I just don't see the downside.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
_`\(,_ | conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw
(_)/ (_) |

David,

I don't think they are disingenuis. It was one sentence I didn't
understand and may have miscommunicated the intent. Sorry.

The reason 5, 6, 7 sp IRD or 7 sp Shimano freewheel? Get 1/2 price Phil
Woods hubs when get new wheels as an option if don't get Harris $99 -
27" set specials.

I only need 5 speed freewheel, and depending on center to center
sprockets on 5 and 6 speed, I want to also have the ability to use ergo
8 speed 1999 up: only 7 sp IRD or shimano is known 5mm center to center
currently for hyperglide freewheels.

So my main goal is to add each system at one time so I know exactly
what effects what. Its running great now, and I don't want to get
caught up in Shimano/Campy marketing upgrade whirlwinds. I don't need a
button shifter now, but prefer the ergo over STI; and now finding out
how to make it fit a campy rd. But you get so much in Shimano for
money, that is an initial attractive option as well.

Except for Sheldon's site, this stuff is pretty well hidden in vendor
sites, so all I have is questions. I can see the main thing from
getting my 1971 Raleigh started is to have as many options for the
future, and use as many features I already have from the present 531
triangle frame and chromed forks: wheel size and brakes. Its not easy
though since there's always one part, screw, or bracket missing that
wastes most of my time searching and money in shipping screws, shims
(one at a time), or brackets to make work. So I'm going slow until I
figure this maze out.

I'm held up now because using Syntace aerobar lifter on Profile Century
aerobar. I found exact screw needed on another Profile aerobar M6x48
(4ea), but the tech won't send it to me because I don't have that
aerobar. He said liability, but its bs marketing if you ask me.


:-0

ddog wrote:
Thanks Guys! That makes sense.

I hope I didn't slander Rivendell, because it was only a sentence that
was not understood properly. Whoops. They seem to be a fine company
with some unique products.

The bottom line is I was trying to calculate if the Campy rear
derailleur (and what models possible - 1999 and on of all models-?)
could be used for the ergo 8 with an IRD 7 sp freewheel which would be
5mm center to center sprockets, just like Campy 8 speed.

If you have a Campag 8s shifter, either DT or ERGO, use any RD and it
will shift that 7s freewheel just fine.

So the rear fork spacing was a question if it required for some reason
a large wheel dish, but I won't be using Campy wheels anyway with IRD
(5, 6, 7) or Shimano (7) freewheel.

I assumethe same sprocket center to center 5.0mm before and after 1999
for Campy 8 sp from my sprocket spacing Bible index on Sheldon's site
(Sproket Spacing table near bottom of link's page).

5mm for Campag 8s...hasn't changed.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html

Ergo would just be an option I could do later, as I like their better
water resistance brake hood design, rebuildable parts, and now I just
found out can switch speeds with disc parts. But I don't need ergo now,
but would like to have that option if I need it later.


Thanks Again!