Rock n Roll

On 2017-06-20 19:48, James wrote:
On 21/06/17 12:30, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2017 5:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-20 14:38, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]


... Certainly, I (and IIRC others) tried files
on chain pins and got the result I expected, which was slight damage to
the file, no discernible change in the chain pin.

Those with a knowledge of Rockwell hardness would have easily
understood
this.


Those with knowledge of how to do this stuff and in possession of
professional grade tools understand better.

Bull****, Joerg. There's no way you have as much time in a machine shop
as I have. There's no way you know as much about steel metallurgy,
hardness measurements or cutting tools as I do. There's no way your
files are better than my files. There's no way you have filed down
chain pins with any normal steel file.


Sorry, Frank, but I have some doubts about that by now.


Now you're asking us to believe you can use your super-speed to dab
lube
onto chain links at a rate of two per second, using your Q-tip, doing
the entire chain in under a minute. I still say it sounds very, very
unlikely.

And son of a gun! There was a guy posting on September 23, 2016 who
claimed that exact same procedure took not one minute, but instead, 10
minutes! You should track him down, because he was using your account
and pretending to be you!

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec....8/iOdTYV_FBAAJ



"Chain cleaning takes at least 20mins each bike. The MTB chain has
caked
brown dirt which comes off easy. The road chain bike is fairly clean
after lots of bike path riding but grimy soot-black after riding
lots of
road. Gives me goose bumps thinking that I also breath whatever causes
this. I found the disposable interdental brushes to work great for
cleaning. First used for my teeth, rinsed, dried, they go into a coin
envelope and that is used up in the garage. So they all work two jobs.

"Lubing takes 10mins because I carefully dab it onto each link via
Q-tip."

As happens so often, we're left with a problem: Which version of Joerg
to believe?


That should have been one min. The 20mins is nearly all taken up by
cleaning grime and sticky stuff.

I believe the Joerg who said the _cleaning_ takes 20 minutes, and the
_lubing_ takes 10 minutes. Or to generalize, I believe you do often
tell the truth when you've not backed yourself into a corner by making
silly statements.


Frank, ever heard about ... progress? As in process improvement?

I used to dip and dab every link individually, then wipe the bottom.
Yes, that took a long time. Over time I found the soak and
dab-dab-dab-...-dab method to be way faster and providing a chain lube
as good as the first Q-Tip method. Maybe such progress doesn't happen in
your world. In mine it does.


But I don't believe the 10 minute estimate was a typo. I don't believe
you can file a chain pin down with any normal steel file. I don't
believe that you really repair chains by finding steel nails along a
trail and smacking things with rocks. I don't believe that your area
drivers are far more dangerous than those in most areas of the U.S. I
don't believe that your life has been saved several times by disk brakes
stopping you just before wildlife collisions. And so on.

I _do_ believe you'll now say you never made those claims. And I don't
believe it's worth the the time to track them all down, as I did with
your Q-tip story.




I wrote this reply in the thread "Another IGH, competitor to Rohloff?"

To be fair to Joerg, I tried filing a chain pin yesterday afternoon. I
managed to take a little metal off the pin and damaged my metal file.
Thankfully the file wasn't in good condition to begin with, but the file
marks on the pin looked nothing like the picture Joerg posted. Joerg's
file must have had real teeth or lumps of diamond - or more likely he
used a grinder.


No, I did not use a grinder. There is a huge difference between files.
The ones bought at a hardware store they are likely of mediocre hardness
unless they came from their locked display cabinet. Worse are the ones
that come in kits such as "3 for $19.99". The worst are those in
impressively large "Best Gift for Father's Day" sets.

Mine are professional grade files inherited from my grandpa. Some of
which he inherited from great-grandpa. They have serious wear marks and
mostly because I sometimes use them "off label", such as for wallowing
out large holes for which I do not have a matching drill bit. Or on
stuff that is too hard.

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain pin is no
match. The filing exercise in the photo took just a few strokes and not
a lot of pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

This is the kind of chain I run on my road bike. Until very recently I
did not own a chain breaker yet have replaced and shortened dozens of
chains. To me they are a nice to have tool but not an essential one.

I have ruined many files over my life in a very short amount of time and
those were always cheap ones. Other than watch maker's files I have none
left that have a plastic handle. All remaining ones are the old style
with large wooden handles. They last and last.


While I confess I've not spent hours each week riding offroad, I have
done a fair bit over the decades, and never broken or bent a chain.


Depends on the turf. We have a lot of loose rocks laying on trails and
occasionally one gets into the works. It is an awful sound. Chains don't
usually break completely but they bend and one link side pops. Most
chains I helped "kludge back together" were from other riders.

Some guys are hardcore. Weeks later I noticed the bike of one rider
still didn't have a front derailer which had gotten shredded during his
chain-pretzeling event. "Is that still the same old chain?" ... "Yup!".
He used the redneck shifter, a piece of Manzanita stuck in with his
water bottle to nudge the chain over to the other chain ring. Making
sure never to get too close to large-large because his chain was now too
short.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain pin is no
match. The filing exercise in the photo took just a few strokes and not
a lot of pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain pins. I think you'll
find (as James and I did) that no steel file will put significant cuts
in the pin. Abrasives (e.g. aluminum oxide sandpaper, grinding wheels,
diamond "files") will cut the pin; but unless motorized, they'll cut it
pretty slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a rough description
of practical hardness commonly used in machine shops. Steel that is
"file hard" is too hard to be cut with a file. It's even in
dictionaries: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a chain pin. There may
be some exotic and rare files out there that I'm not familiar with. But
having worked in three machine shops for various lengths of time, I can
say that any normal "professional grade" steel file attacking a chain
pin will give you scratches in the file and no significant change in the
chain pin.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-06-21 08:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain pin is no
match. The filing exercise in the photo took just a few strokes and
not a lot of pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain pins. I think you'll
find (as James and I did) that no steel file will put significant cuts
in the pin. Abrasives (e.g. aluminum oxide sandpaper, grinding wheels,
diamond "files") will cut the pin; but unless motorized, they'll cut it
pretty slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a rough description
of practical hardness commonly used in machine shops. Steel that is
"file hard" is too hard to be cut with a file. It's even in
dictionaries: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a chain pin. There may
be some exotic and rare files out there that I'm not familiar with. But
having worked in three machine shops for various lengths of time, I can
say that any normal "professional grade" steel file attacking a chain
pin will give you scratches in the file and no significant change in the
chain pin.


I suggest to all readers to do this with a decent file. Professional
brand-name products from companies like this and not some generic
hardware store file:

https://www.pferdusa.com/products/201j/

My tool cabinet contains about 20 files which are mostly Pferd and Black
Diamond. If you buy new you need to be prepared to shell out $30-$50 per
file plus handle.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-06-21 11:01, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-21 08:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain pin is no
match. The filing exercise in the photo took just a few strokes and
not a lot of pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain pins. I think you'll
find (as James and I did) that no steel file will put significant cuts
in the pin. Abrasives (e.g. aluminum oxide sandpaper, grinding wheels,
diamond "files") will cut the pin; but unless motorized, they'll cut it
pretty slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a rough description
of practical hardness commonly used in machine shops. Steel that is
"file hard" is too hard to be cut with a file. It's even in
dictionaries: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a chain pin. There may
be some exotic and rare files out there that I'm not familiar with. But
having worked in three machine shops for various lengths of time, I can
say that any normal "professional grade" steel file attacking a chain
pin will give you scratches in the file and no significant change in the
chain pin.


I suggest to all readers to do this with a decent file. Professional
brand-name products from companies like this and not some generic
hardware store file:

https://www.pferdusa.com/products/201j/

My tool cabinet contains about 20 files which are mostly Pferd and Black
Diamond. If you buy new you need to be prepared to shell out $30-$50 per
file plus handle.


Disclaimer: I shall not be responsible if you ruin your file.

Don't try this with one that is sub-par.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:01:40 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-21 08:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain pin is no
match. The filing exercise in the photo took just a few strokes and
not a lot of pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain pins. I think you'll
find (as James and I did) that no steel file will put significant cuts
in the pin. Abrasives (e.g. aluminum oxide sandpaper, grinding wheels,
diamond "files") will cut the pin; but unless motorized, they'll cut it
pretty slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a rough description
of practical hardness commonly used in machine shops. Steel that is
"file hard" is too hard to be cut with a file. It's even in
dictionaries: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a chain pin. There may
be some exotic and rare files out there that I'm not familiar with. But
having worked in three machine shops for various lengths of time, I can
say that any normal "professional grade" steel file attacking a chain
pin will give you scratches in the file and no significant change in the
chain pin.


I suggest to all readers to do this with a decent file. Professional
brand-name products from companies like this and not some generic
hardware store file:

https://www.pferdusa.com/products/201j/

My tool cabinet contains about 20 files which are mostly Pferd and Black
Diamond. If you buy new you need to be prepared to shell out $30-$50 per
file plus handle.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

In other words you want bicyclists to buy a file that costs more than the chain they're trying to fix.

You have more excusess for stuff than what Caerter's had little liver pills. Also, the images you showed are indicative ofthe results of a GRNDER and not a file.

Cheers

On 21/06/17 08:16, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 3:02:33 PM UTC-7, James wrote:


Cooking in a hot wax/oil bath is much more effective.

What is your formula, exactly. I'll be the tester. Just like with my dynamo.


I cannot be exact because I didn't measure what I used.

I started with a very large candle. I warmed it up in a pot on the
stove to liquify it, and added about 30-40% EP gear oil.

There is a recipe on the internet that uses paraffin wax and clear
paraffin oil in a 50/50 ratio. A mate uses that and it works fine and
is less smelly than the EP oil.

--
JS

On 22/06/17 01:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain pin is no
match. The filing exercise in the photo took just a few strokes and
not a lot of pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain pins. I think you'll
find (as James and I did) that no steel file will put significant cuts
in the pin. Abrasives (e.g. aluminum oxide sandpaper, grinding wheels,
diamond "files") will cut the pin; but unless motorized, they'll cut it
pretty slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a rough description
of practical hardness commonly used in machine shops. Steel that is
"file hard" is too hard to be cut with a file. It's even in
dictionaries: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a chain pin. There may
be some exotic and rare files out there that I'm not familiar with. But
having worked in three machine shops for various lengths of time, I can
say that any normal "professional grade" steel file attacking a chain
pin will give you scratches in the file and no significant change in the
chain pin.


But Joerg's files are "professional grade files inherited from my
grandpa. Some of which he inherited from great-grandpa."

They made steel much harder back then don't you know?

--
JS

On 6/22/2017 12:26 AM, James wrote:
On 22/06/17 01:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain
pin is no
match. The filing exercise in the photo took just a few
strokes and
not a lot of pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain pins. I
think you'll
find (as James and I did) that no steel file will put
significant cuts
in the pin. Abrasives (e.g. aluminum oxide sandpaper,
grinding wheels,
diamond "files") will cut the pin; but unless motorized,
they'll cut it
pretty slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a
rough description
of practical hardness commonly used in machine shops.
Steel that is
"file hard" is too hard to be cut with a file. It's even in
dictionaries:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a chain
pin. There may
be some exotic and rare files out there that I'm not
familiar with. But
having worked in three machine shops for various lengths
of time, I can
say that any normal "professional grade" steel file
attacking a chain
pin will give you scratches in the file and no significant
change in the
chain pin.


But Joerg's files are "professional grade files inherited
from my grandpa. Some of which he inherited from
great-grandpa."

They made steel much harder back then don't you know?


I wondered about that too.
I wear out a first rate American made file in 4 to 6 months
of frame repair and nothing I work on is hardened.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2017-06-21 12:58, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 2:01:40 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-06-21 08:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain pin
is no match. The filing exercise in the photo took just a few
strokes and not a lot of pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain pins. I think
you'll find (as James and I did) that no steel file will put
significant cuts in the pin. Abrasives (e.g. aluminum oxide
sandpaper, grinding wheels, diamond "files") will cut the pin;
but unless motorized, they'll cut it pretty slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a rough
description of practical hardness commonly used in machine shops.
Steel that is "file hard" is too hard to be cut with a file.
It's even in dictionaries:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a chain pin.
There may be some exotic and rare files out there that I'm not
familiar with. But having worked in three machine shops for
various lengths of time, I can say that any normal "professional
grade" steel file attacking a chain pin will give you scratches
in the file and no significant change in the chain pin.


I suggest to all readers to do this with a decent file.
Professional brand-name products from companies like this and not
some generic hardware store file:

https://www.pferdusa.com/products/201j/

My tool cabinet contains about 20 files which are mostly Pferd and
Black Diamond. If you buy new you need to be prepared to shell out
$30-$50 per file plus handle.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

In other words you want bicyclists to buy a file that costs more
than the chain they're trying to fix.

You have more excusess for stuff than what Caerter's had little liver
pills. Also, the images you showed are indicative ofthe results of a
GRNDER and not a file.


No. The orgininal discussion was whether a link pin can be filed down.
My statement was simply that if you have a decent file it can be done.
If you do not have a decent file buy a chain tool. It's cheaper.

What I meant was that someone who is equipped with the proper high
quality tools can do this job. Those who have cheap hobby tools can't.

If was no done with a grinder. If you accuse me of lying then further
discussion is meaningless.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-06-22 05:45, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/22/2017 12:26 AM, James wrote:
On 22/06/17 01:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain
pin is no
match. The filing exercise in the photo took just a few
strokes and
not a lot of pressu

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain pins. I
think you'll
find (as James and I did) that no steel file will put
significant cuts
in the pin. Abrasives (e.g. aluminum oxide sandpaper,
grinding wheels,
diamond "files") will cut the pin; but unless motorized,
they'll cut it
pretty slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a
rough description
of practical hardness commonly used in machine shops.
Steel that is
"file hard" is too hard to be cut with a file. It's even in
dictionaries:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a chain
pin. There may
be some exotic and rare files out there that I'm not
familiar with. But
having worked in three machine shops for various lengths
of time, I can
say that any normal "professional grade" steel file
attacking a chain
pin will give you scratches in the file and no significant
change in the
chain pin.


But Joerg's files are "professional grade files inherited
from my grandpa. Some of which he inherited from
great-grandpa."

They made steel much harder back then don't you know?


I wondered about that too.
I wear out a first rate American made file in 4 to 6 months of frame
repair and nothing I work on is hardened.


They made excellent files in the olden days. The ones I have are quite
worn. That is because grandpa was a steam locomotive engineer and he
bought tools that the railroad shop kicked out as too worn. He also
bought new ones but then only the best just like the railroad shop did.

Until recently I had no chain tool and over my lifetime have swapped out
dozens of chains via this method:

1. Lay down the bike.

2. File down a pin so the punch or hardened nail would not slip (which
could result in a major ouch situation).

3. Place link on a large metal block, anvil, whatever. Place steel nut
underneath link. Nut must be larger than pin.

4. Drive out pin with punch and hammer or hardened nail and hammer.

5. Do same with new chain to bring to required length. Mount chain, push
in the last pin, "caress" it with the hammer so it is firmly holding but
not too tight.

The only bikes that had removable links back in the old days in Europe
were single-gear classic ones. Road bikes usually didn't and that was my
favorite kind of bike (until mountain bikes appeared).

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/