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#91
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 05:17:38 +0700, John B.
wrote: On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 09:15:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 at 9:49:48 AM UTC-7, duane wrote: On 19/06/2019 10:25 a.m., jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 8:06:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2019 1:24 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint. What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up. Stiffness probably does not make a detectable difference, unless the frame is so flexible that things are scraping. Remember the discussion we had about the bike magazine's test of modern stiff CF frames vs. older, heavier steel frames? The test riders gushed about how the stiffness improved their climbing, but the math showed the speed difference was precisely what would be predicted by the weight difference. Weight matters when climbing. If getting to the top of the hill before your buddy is really, really important, a lighter bike will help by whatever the percent difference in total bike+rider weight. If a 160 pound rider changes his 20 pound bike for an 18 pound bike, he should be about 1% faster up a steep hill. Whoopee! Make that a 5lb weight difference. You need to borrow a well-fitting modern 15lb racing bike with an appropriate gear range and then do a long ride with lots of hills. It's not a subtle or imagined difference compared to a T1000 or old-school steel sport touring bike, particularly if you're trying to keep up with others. -- Jay Beattie. 5lbs? My Tarmac is probably closer to 12 lbs lighter than my cro moly Volpe. And no in reality it's not a subtle or imagined difference. And no, it's not just about weight unless everything else is exactly the same. I changed my Look pedals from CX 6 cyclocross pedals which are very easy to get into and put 206's on which were much lighter. Then since I had those 50 mm deep clinchers just sitting there I installed those The "out-the-door" weight was 21.7 lbs. for the Pinarello. I'm pulling my Basso apart to refinish it and I have another set of cheap Chinese tubeless wheels that I'll install when it get's back together. Also I think that my 44 mm bars are too wide so will reduce this to 42 mm. Chinese carbon bars as well. I think that I can keep a steel bike and have it about the same weight as the Colnago. Granted that the Colnago is not an ultra-light but my friend is touring Italy and he went to a bike factory and they advised him against buying carbon. They said that they support a racing team with these ultra-lights but that they are replaced every single race. They say that there's no way that you can get any reliability out of a piece of cloth that tears with resin on it that cracks. That last is a rather strange statement given that practically all modern recreation and work boats are made from a mixture of cloth and resin. Do you mean that my 15 year old, 40 ft sloop, that had sailed across the pacific ocean and that I sailed from Thailand to Australia and back was prone to crack? Or is this just another of your poorly thought out and wild eyed statements. As an addendum to the above I found a site that had tested a number of carbon composite samples. The average of 4 separate test samples was 982.5 MPa or 142,499psi. In comparison the ultimate tensile strength of "mild steel" (Aisi 1018) is 440 MPa or 63,816 psi. http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...92006000100016 https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6115 As an aside, the carbon composite samples appeared to show no elongation before fracturing during the tensile strength testing while the mild steel specifications show a 15% elongation before failure. Also the tensile strength necessary to produce elongation of the mild steel is 370 MPa. Which illustrates a major difference between carbon composite and steel. The steel bends or elongates prior to complete failure while the carbon just breaks. -- cheers, John B. |
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#92
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:56:21 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 6:17:42 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote: On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 09:15:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: Snipped Granted that the Colnago is not an ultra-light but my friend is touring Italy and he went to a bike factory and they advised him against buying carbon. They said that they support a racing team with these ultra-lights but that they are replaced every single race. They say that there's no way that you can get any reliability out of a piece of cloth that tears with resin on it that cracks. That last is a rather strange statement given that practically all modern recreation and work boats are made from a mixture of cloth and resin. Do you mean that my 15 year old, 40 ft sloop, that had sailed across the pacific ocean and that I sailed from Thailand to Australia and back was prone to crack? Or is this just another of your poorly thought out and wild eyed statements. Snipped John B. You got it John B. Canoes and kayaks and a lot of power boats are often made of a polyester cloth and/or polyester mat impregnated with polyester resin. Some of those boats are even made with a Kevlar fabric and epoxy resin. Cheers Do they use "polyester"? All the "glass" boats that I am familiar with used actual glass fiber whether layed up as a woven fabric or as random length chopped fibers usually called "mat". But yes, Polyester resin is the most commonly used for making the boat as it is something like 1/2 the cost of epoxy but if repairs are necessary epoxy if the favored resin as it is substantially stronger than polyester. -- cheers, John B. |
#93
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 7:29:10 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 05:17:38 +0700, John B. wrote: On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 09:15:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 at 9:49:48 AM UTC-7, duane wrote: On 19/06/2019 10:25 a.m., jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 8:06:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2019 1:24 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint. What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up. Stiffness probably does not make a detectable difference, unless the frame is so flexible that things are scraping. Remember the discussion we had about the bike magazine's test of modern stiff CF frames vs.. older, heavier steel frames? The test riders gushed about how the stiffness improved their climbing, but the math showed the speed difference was precisely what would be predicted by the weight difference. Weight matters when climbing. If getting to the top of the hill before your buddy is really, really important, a lighter bike will help by whatever the percent difference in total bike+rider weight. If a 160 pound rider changes his 20 pound bike for an 18 pound bike, he should be about 1% faster up a steep hill. Whoopee! Make that a 5lb weight difference. You need to borrow a well-fitting modern 15lb racing bike with an appropriate gear range and then do a long ride with lots of hills. It's not a subtle or imagined difference compared to a T1000 or old-school steel sport touring bike, particularly if you're trying to keep up with others. -- Jay Beattie. 5lbs? My Tarmac is probably closer to 12 lbs lighter than my cro moly Volpe. And no in reality it's not a subtle or imagined difference. And no, it's not just about weight unless everything else is exactly the same.. I changed my Look pedals from CX 6 cyclocross pedals which are very easy to get into and put 206's on which were much lighter. Then since I had those 50 mm deep clinchers just sitting there I installed those The "out-the-door" weight was 21.7 lbs. for the Pinarello. I'm pulling my Basso apart to refinish it and I have another set of cheap Chinese tubeless wheels that I'll install when it get's back together. Also I think that my 44 mm bars are too wide so will reduce this to 42 mm. Chinese carbon bars as well. I think that I can keep a steel bike and have it about the same weight as the Colnago. Granted that the Colnago is not an ultra-light but my friend is touring Italy and he went to a bike factory and they advised him against buying carbon. They said that they support a racing team with these ultra-lights but that they are replaced every single race. They say that there's no way that you can get any reliability out of a piece of cloth that tears with resin on it that cracks. That last is a rather strange statement given that practically all modern recreation and work boats are made from a mixture of cloth and resin. Do you mean that my 15 year old, 40 ft sloop, that had sailed across the pacific ocean and that I sailed from Thailand to Australia and back was prone to crack? Or is this just another of your poorly thought out and wild eyed statements. As an addendum to the above I found a site that had tested a number of carbon composite samples. The average of 4 separate test samples was 982.5 MPa or 142,499psi. In comparison the ultimate tensile strength of "mild steel" (Aisi 1018) is 440 MPa or 63,816 psi. http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...92006000100016 https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6115 As an aside, the carbon composite samples appeared to show no elongation before fracturing during the tensile strength testing while the mild steel specifications show a 15% elongation before failure. Also the tensile strength necessary to produce elongation of the mild steel is 370 MPa. Which illustrates a major difference between carbon composite and steel. The steel bends or elongates prior to complete failure while the carbon just breaks. -- cheers, John B. This is fascinating, but I think your first comment was correct -- Tom is either hallucinating or getting smoke blown up his a**. All my CF bikes have lifetime warranties, including an exceptionally light Emonda SLR. My brother flew CF Dreamliners and lived to retirement. The factory making disposable, one-race CF bikes is made-up by someone. -- Jay Beattie. |
#94
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:10:13 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote: On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 7:29:10 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 05:17:38 +0700, John B. wrote: On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 09:15:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 at 9:49:48 AM UTC-7, duane wrote: On 19/06/2019 10:25 a.m., jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 8:06:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2019 1:24 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint. What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up. Stiffness probably does not make a detectable difference, unless the frame is so flexible that things are scraping. Remember the discussion we had about the bike magazine's test of modern stiff CF frames vs. older, heavier steel frames? The test riders gushed about how the stiffness improved their climbing, but the math showed the speed difference was precisely what would be predicted by the weight difference. Weight matters when climbing. If getting to the top of the hill before your buddy is really, really important, a lighter bike will help by whatever the percent difference in total bike+rider weight. If a 160 pound rider changes his 20 pound bike for an 18 pound bike, he should be about 1% faster up a steep hill. Whoopee! Make that a 5lb weight difference. You need to borrow a well-fitting modern 15lb racing bike with an appropriate gear range and then do a long ride with lots of hills. It's not a subtle or imagined difference compared to a T1000 or old-school steel sport touring bike, particularly if you're trying to keep up with others. -- Jay Beattie. 5lbs? My Tarmac is probably closer to 12 lbs lighter than my cro moly Volpe. And no in reality it's not a subtle or imagined difference. And no, it's not just about weight unless everything else is exactly the same. I changed my Look pedals from CX 6 cyclocross pedals which are very easy to get into and put 206's on which were much lighter. Then since I had those 50 mm deep clinchers just sitting there I installed those The "out-the-door" weight was 21.7 lbs. for the Pinarello. I'm pulling my Basso apart to refinish it and I have another set of cheap Chinese tubeless wheels that I'll install when it get's back together. Also I think that my 44 mm bars are too wide so will reduce this to 42 mm. Chinese carbon bars as well. I think that I can keep a steel bike and have it about the same weight as the Colnago. Granted that the Colnago is not an ultra-light but my friend is touring Italy and he went to a bike factory and they advised him against buying carbon. They said that they support a racing team with these ultra-lights but that they are replaced every single race. They say that there's no way that you can get any reliability out of a piece of cloth that tears with resin on it that cracks. That last is a rather strange statement given that practically all modern recreation and work boats are made from a mixture of cloth and resin. Do you mean that my 15 year old, 40 ft sloop, that had sailed across the pacific ocean and that I sailed from Thailand to Australia and back was prone to crack? Or is this just another of your poorly thought out and wild eyed statements. As an addendum to the above I found a site that had tested a number of carbon composite samples. The average of 4 separate test samples was 982.5 MPa or 142,499psi. In comparison the ultimate tensile strength of "mild steel" (Aisi 1018) is 440 MPa or 63,816 psi. http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...92006000100016 https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6115 As an aside, the carbon composite samples appeared to show no elongation before fracturing during the tensile strength testing while the mild steel specifications show a 15% elongation before failure. Also the tensile strength necessary to produce elongation of the mild steel is 370 MPa. Which illustrates a major difference between carbon composite and steel. The steel bends or elongates prior to complete failure while the carbon just breaks. -- cheers, John B. This is fascinating, but I think your first comment was correct -- Tom is either hallucinating or getting smoke blown up his a**. All my CF bikes have lifetime warranties, including an exceptionally light Emonda SLR. My brother flew CF Dreamliners and lived to retirement. The factory making disposable, one-race CF bikes is made-up by someone. -- Jay Beattie. Well, if one has a preconceived notion, no matter how weird, there is a web site that will confirm your notion. Flat earth? No moon landing? President not a citizen? They are all there. But if the subject is light weight bicycles than fairwheel bikes has built a 6.16 lb bike see: http://blog.fairwheelbikes.com/2013/...ike-revisited/ Gad just took delivery of the new Carbon bike, super light, and than discover that it is really a heavy klunker :-) -- cheers, John B. |
#95
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:10:13 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote: On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 7:29:10 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 05:17:38 +0700, John B. wrote: On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 09:15:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 at 9:49:48 AM UTC-7, duane wrote: On 19/06/2019 10:25 a.m., jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 8:06:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2019 1:24 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint. What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up. Stiffness probably does not make a detectable difference, unless the frame is so flexible that things are scraping. Remember the discussion we had about the bike magazine's test of modern stiff CF frames vs. older, heavier steel frames? The test riders gushed about how the stiffness improved their climbing, but the math showed the speed difference was precisely what would be predicted by the weight difference. Weight matters when climbing. If getting to the top of the hill before your buddy is really, really important, a lighter bike will help by whatever the percent difference in total bike+rider weight. If a 160 pound rider changes his 20 pound bike for an 18 pound bike, he should be about 1% faster up a steep hill. Whoopee! Make that a 5lb weight difference. You need to borrow a well-fitting modern 15lb racing bike with an appropriate gear range and then do a long ride with lots of hills. It's not a subtle or imagined difference compared to a T1000 or old-school steel sport touring bike, particularly if you're trying to keep up with others. -- Jay Beattie. 5lbs? My Tarmac is probably closer to 12 lbs lighter than my cro moly Volpe. And no in reality it's not a subtle or imagined difference. And no, it's not just about weight unless everything else is exactly the same. I changed my Look pedals from CX 6 cyclocross pedals which are very easy to get into and put 206's on which were much lighter. Then since I had those 50 mm deep clinchers just sitting there I installed those The "out-the-door" weight was 21.7 lbs. for the Pinarello. I'm pulling my Basso apart to refinish it and I have another set of cheap Chinese tubeless wheels that I'll install when it get's back together. Also I think that my 44 mm bars are too wide so will reduce this to 42 mm. Chinese carbon bars as well. I think that I can keep a steel bike and have it about the same weight as the Colnago. Granted that the Colnago is not an ultra-light but my friend is touring Italy and he went to a bike factory and they advised him against buying carbon. They said that they support a racing team with these ultra-lights but that they are replaced every single race. They say that there's no way that you can get any reliability out of a piece of cloth that tears with resin on it that cracks. That last is a rather strange statement given that practically all modern recreation and work boats are made from a mixture of cloth and resin. Do you mean that my 15 year old, 40 ft sloop, that had sailed across the pacific ocean and that I sailed from Thailand to Australia and back was prone to crack? Or is this just another of your poorly thought out and wild eyed statements. As an addendum to the above I found a site that had tested a number of carbon composite samples. The average of 4 separate test samples was 982.5 MPa or 142,499psi. In comparison the ultimate tensile strength of "mild steel" (Aisi 1018) is 440 MPa or 63,816 psi. http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...92006000100016 https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6115 As an aside, the carbon composite samples appeared to show no elongation before fracturing during the tensile strength testing while the mild steel specifications show a 15% elongation before failure. Also the tensile strength necessary to produce elongation of the mild steel is 370 MPa. Which illustrates a major difference between carbon composite and steel. The steel bends or elongates prior to complete failure while the carbon just breaks. -- cheers, John B. This is fascinating, but I think your first comment was correct -- Tom is either hallucinating or getting smoke blown up his a**. All my CF bikes have lifetime warranties, including an exceptionally light Emonda SLR. My brother flew CF Dreamliners and lived to retirement. The factory making disposable, one-race CF bikes is made-up by someone. -- Jay Beattie. Your brother isn't the bloke that paid $34,000 for a ticket from Tokyo's Narita Airport to Hong Kong International Airport on October 26, 2011 ( the first commercial flight made by the 787) is he? -- cheers, John B. |
#96
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 5:10:16 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 7:29:10 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 05:17:38 +0700, John B. wrote: On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 09:15:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 at 9:49:48 AM UTC-7, duane wrote: On 19/06/2019 10:25 a.m., jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 8:06:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2019 1:24 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint. What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up. Stiffness probably does not make a detectable difference, unless the frame is so flexible that things are scraping. Remember the discussion we had about the bike magazine's test of modern stiff CF frames vs. older, heavier steel frames? The test riders gushed about how the stiffness improved their climbing, but the math showed the speed difference was precisely what would be predicted by the weight difference. Weight matters when climbing. If getting to the top of the hill before your buddy is really, really important, a lighter bike will help by whatever the percent difference in total bike+rider weight. If a 160 pound rider changes his 20 pound bike for an 18 pound bike, he should be about 1% faster up a steep hill. Whoopee! Make that a 5lb weight difference. You need to borrow a well-fitting modern 15lb racing bike with an appropriate gear range and then do a long ride with lots of hills. It's not a subtle or imagined difference compared to a T1000 or old-school steel sport touring bike, particularly if you're trying to keep up with others. -- Jay Beattie. 5lbs? My Tarmac is probably closer to 12 lbs lighter than my cro moly Volpe. And no in reality it's not a subtle or imagined difference. And no, it's not just about weight unless everything else is exactly the same. I changed my Look pedals from CX 6 cyclocross pedals which are very easy to get into and put 206's on which were much lighter. Then since I had those 50 mm deep clinchers just sitting there I installed those The "out-the-door" weight was 21.7 lbs. for the Pinarello. I'm pulling my Basso apart to refinish it and I have another set of cheap Chinese tubeless wheels that I'll install when it get's back together. Also I think that my 44 mm bars are too wide so will reduce this to 42 mm. Chinese carbon bars as well. I think that I can keep a steel bike and have it about the same weight as the Colnago. Granted that the Colnago is not an ultra-light but my friend is touring Italy and he went to a bike factory and they advised him against buying carbon. They said that they support a racing team with these ultra-lights but that they are replaced every single race. They say that there's no way that you can get any reliability out of a piece of cloth that tears with resin on it that cracks. That last is a rather strange statement given that practically all modern recreation and work boats are made from a mixture of cloth and resin. Do you mean that my 15 year old, 40 ft sloop, that had sailed across the pacific ocean and that I sailed from Thailand to Australia and back was prone to crack? Or is this just another of your poorly thought out and wild eyed statements. As an addendum to the above I found a site that had tested a number of carbon composite samples. The average of 4 separate test samples was 982.5 MPa or 142,499psi. In comparison the ultimate tensile strength of "mild steel" (Aisi 1018) is 440 MPa or 63,816 psi. http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...92006000100016 https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6115 As an aside, the carbon composite samples appeared to show no elongation before fracturing during the tensile strength testing while the mild steel specifications show a 15% elongation before failure. Also the tensile strength necessary to produce elongation of the mild steel is 370 MPa. Which illustrates a major difference between carbon composite and steel. The steel bends or elongates prior to complete failure while the carbon just breaks. -- cheers, John B. This is fascinating, but I think your first comment was correct -- Tom is either hallucinating or getting smoke blown up his a**. All my CF bikes have lifetime warranties, including an exceptionally light Emonda SLR. My brother flew CF Dreamliners and lived to retirement. The factory making disposable, one-race CF bikes is made-up by someone. -- Jay Beattie. I also have a hard time following Tom's reasoning. Without judging I find it at best inconsistent. Go for a sunday's ride on my fast, very comfartable CF aerobike. It is spectacular weather. Lou Lou |
#97
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On 23/06/2019 03.29, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 05:17:38 +0700, John B. wrote: On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 09:15:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 at 9:49:48 AM UTC-7, duane wrote: On 19/06/2019 10:25 a.m., jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 8:06:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2019 1:24 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint. What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up. Stiffness probably does not make a detectable difference, unless the frame is so flexible that things are scraping. Remember the discussion we had about the bike magazine's test of modern stiff CF frames vs. older, heavier steel frames? The test riders gushed about how the stiffness improved their climbing, but the math showed the speed difference was precisely what would be predicted by the weight difference. Weight matters when climbing. If getting to the top of the hill before your buddy is really, really important, a lighter bike will help by whatever the percent difference in total bike+rider weight. If a 160 pound rider changes his 20 pound bike for an 18 pound bike, he should be about 1% faster up a steep hill. Whoopee! Make that a 5lb weight difference. You need to borrow a well-fitting modern 15lb racing bike with an appropriate gear range and then do a long ride with lots of hills. It's not a subtle or imagined difference compared to a T1000 or old-school steel sport touring bike, particularly if you're trying to keep up with others. -- Jay Beattie. 5lbs? My Tarmac is probably closer to 12 lbs lighter than my cro moly Volpe. And no in reality it's not a subtle or imagined difference. And no, it's not just about weight unless everything else is exactly the same. I changed my Look pedals from CX 6 cyclocross pedals which are very easy to get into and put 206's on which were much lighter. Then since I had those 50 mm deep clinchers just sitting there I installed those The "out-the-door" weight was 21.7 lbs. for the Pinarello. I'm pulling my Basso apart to refinish it and I have another set of cheap Chinese tubeless wheels that I'll install when it get's back together. Also I think that my 44 mm bars are too wide so will reduce this to 42 mm. Chinese carbon bars as well. I think that I can keep a steel bike and have it about the same weight as the Colnago. Granted that the Colnago is not an ultra-light but my friend is touring Italy and he went to a bike factory and they advised him against buying carbon. They said that they support a racing team with these ultra-lights but that they are replaced every single race. They say that there's no way that you can get any reliability out of a piece of cloth that tears with resin on it that cracks. That last is a rather strange statement given that practically all modern recreation and work boats are made from a mixture of cloth and resin. Do you mean that my 15 year old, 40 ft sloop, that had sailed across the pacific ocean and that I sailed from Thailand to Australia and back was prone to crack? Or is this just another of your poorly thought out and wild eyed statements. As an addendum to the above I found a site that had tested a number of carbon composite samples. The average of 4 separate test samples was 982.5 MPa or 142,499psi. In comparison the ultimate tensile strength of "mild steel" (Aisi 1018) is 440 MPa or 63,816 psi. http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...92006000100016 https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6115 As an aside, the carbon composite samples appeared to show no elongation before fracturing during the tensile strength testing while the mild steel specifications show a 15% elongation before failure. Also the tensile strength necessary to produce elongation of the mild steel is 370 MPa. Which illustrates a major difference between carbon composite and steel. The steel bends or elongates prior to complete failure while the carbon just breaks. Which is what makes CF frames incredibly rigid. They are fun to ride because you feel that every erg on the pedal converts to KE without loss. I've never owned one so can't comment on the 'rough ride' criticism, but I could believe it. |
#98
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On 6/22/2019 8:10 PM, jbeattie wrote:
snip All my CF bikes have lifetime warranties, including an exceptionally light Emonda SLR. It would be a mistake to judge the durability of a frame (of any material), or any product for that matter, based on the presence of a lifetime warranty. Even Harbor Freight has a lifetime warranty on its hand tools. |
#99
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 10:35:04 AM UTC+2, Tosspot wrote:
On 23/06/2019 03.29, John B. wrote: On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 05:17:38 +0700, John B. wrote: On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 09:15:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 at 9:49:48 AM UTC-7, duane wrote: On 19/06/2019 10:25 a.m., jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 8:06:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2019 1:24 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint. What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up. Stiffness probably does not make a detectable difference, unless the frame is so flexible that things are scraping. Remember the discussion we had about the bike magazine's test of modern stiff CF frames vs. older, heavier steel frames? The test riders gushed about how the stiffness improved their climbing, but the math showed the speed difference was precisely what would be predicted by the weight difference. Weight matters when climbing. If getting to the top of the hill before your buddy is really, really important, a lighter bike will help by whatever the percent difference in total bike+rider weight. If a 160 pound rider changes his 20 pound bike for an 18 pound bike, he should be about 1% faster up a steep hill. Whoopee! Make that a 5lb weight difference. You need to borrow a well-fitting modern 15lb racing bike with an appropriate gear range and then do a long ride with lots of hills. It's not a subtle or imagined difference compared to a T1000 or old-school steel sport touring bike, particularly if you're trying to keep up with others. -- Jay Beattie. 5lbs? My Tarmac is probably closer to 12 lbs lighter than my cro moly Volpe. And no in reality it's not a subtle or imagined difference. And no, it's not just about weight unless everything else is exactly the same. I changed my Look pedals from CX 6 cyclocross pedals which are very easy to get into and put 206's on which were much lighter. Then since I had those 50 mm deep clinchers just sitting there I installed those The "out-the-door" weight was 21.7 lbs. for the Pinarello. I'm pulling my Basso apart to refinish it and I have another set of cheap Chinese tubeless wheels that I'll install when it get's back together. Also I think that my 44 mm bars are too wide so will reduce this to 42 mm. Chinese carbon bars as well. I think that I can keep a steel bike and have it about the same weight as the Colnago. Granted that the Colnago is not an ultra-light but my friend is touring Italy and he went to a bike factory and they advised him against buying carbon. They said that they support a racing team with these ultra-lights but that they are replaced every single race. They say that there's no way that you can get any reliability out of a piece of cloth that tears with resin on it that cracks. That last is a rather strange statement given that practically all modern recreation and work boats are made from a mixture of cloth and resin. Do you mean that my 15 year old, 40 ft sloop, that had sailed across the pacific ocean and that I sailed from Thailand to Australia and back was prone to crack? Or is this just another of your poorly thought out and wild eyed statements. As an addendum to the above I found a site that had tested a number of carbon composite samples. The average of 4 separate test samples was 982.5 MPa or 142,499psi. In comparison the ultimate tensile strength of "mild steel" (Aisi 1018) is 440 MPa or 63,816 psi. http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...92006000100016 https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6115 As an aside, the carbon composite samples appeared to show no elongation before fracturing during the tensile strength testing while the mild steel specifications show a 15% elongation before failure. Also the tensile strength necessary to produce elongation of the mild steel is 370 MPa. Which illustrates a major difference between carbon composite and steel. The steel bends or elongates prior to complete failure while the carbon just breaks. Which is what makes CF frames incredibly rigid. They are fun to ride because you feel that every erg on the pedal converts to KE without loss. I've never owned one so can't comment on the 'rough ride' criticism, but I could believe it. When do the old farts learn to understand that the properties of CF depends on the direction. Today CF frames are one of most comfortable frames. Lou |
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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter
On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 11:04:11 AM UTC+2, sms wrote:
On 6/22/2019 8:10 PM, jbeattie wrote: snip All my CF bikes have lifetime warranties, including an exceptionally light Emonda SLR. It would be a mistake to judge the durability of a frame (of any material), or any product for that matter, based on the presence of a lifetime warranty. Even Harbor Freight has a lifetime warranty on its hand tools. Sold my first CF bike (Scott CR1) to a friend a couple of years ago. Bike is almost 12 years old now and it looks like new despite ridden hard and under all circumstances. Lou |
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