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  #41  
Old July 14th 19, 09:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Evans
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Posts: 44
Default Electronic Shifting

On 12/07/2019 22:01, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 10/07/2019 21:19, Tom Kunich wrote:

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.


Long term it will probably be cheaper than mechanical.

It simplifies quite a few things. Simpler shifters, no gear cables, no
need for frame additions to route gear cables. The electronic components
will be dirt cheap.


What is the different between internal routing of wires (that come with the group) and cables? Since the ratcheting mechanism is in the rear derailleur instead of the shifters it would be a little cheaper to maintain I imagine.


My expectation for the future would be no wiring. Each component having
its own battery and the using wireless communication. Cheap and simple.


Yesterday in Stage 7 you could see some guy grab a handful of brakes because he was about to touch a wheel. The hydraulic disk locked up and top-ended and threw him right on his face. Pretty ugly and EXACTLY what I did on my cyclocross bike.


My disk brake newbie/cross bike newbie failure was to lose the back
wheel braking and cornering in the wet. For some reason I thought disk
brakes and 40mm tyres could change the laws of physics, unfortunately not.
Ads
  #42  
Old July 14th 19, 11:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Electronic Shifting

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:54:22 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 5:52:39 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 1:41:42 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 10:19:22 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
This stuff is really expensive. But is it reliable? Looking in Craigslist shows a LOT of electronic groups for sale. Though they sure aren't going cheap.

The major question is: what need did they fulfill? Is there any cable failures at the pro-level? Any sticking gears or jumping gears that are attributable to the cables?

Well, on 11 speeds the rear derailleurs do have much better indexing. While the cable shifted groups index in the brifters, the electronic groups are indexed inside of the rear and front derailleurs. This makes it certainly more immediately available to the position.

But this would certainly be something that would work just as well with cable actuation and it would make the Brifters a whole hell of a lot cheaper though they would add the problem that like the electronic shifting you have to shift one gear at a time and with the cable units you can shift multiple gears at once with DuraAce or Record though not with SRAM.

With cables it would take two cables to operate in two directions or perhaps one cable pulled on both directions - sort of in a circle.

The advantage would be that you wouldn't have to plug the things in and as is usual, eventually this sort of stuff ends up on touring bikes that do not have the capability of charging anything.

My friend downloads European coverage off of the web and he says that he has watch many (not some) failures of these electronic groups. The one that I saw in person failed on the very first ride. He didn't tell me what he did but I haven't seen any failures since.

But even watching NBC Sports which pans away from failures, I watched two very obvious electronic shifting failures today alone. And on the other stages I have wondered why they were replacing bikes rather than a wheel without even looking at a flat.

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.

I think the advantage of electronic shifting is difficult to quantify.. Using it for 4 years on my crossbike and 2 years on one of my road bikes my opinion is:
- it is more convenient,
- it shifts quicker because of less travel of the switch/lever,
- it is more convenient in case of internal cable routing. Install it once and never worry about it afterwards,
- once adjusted never touch it again,
- FD shifts under load,
- the FD auto adjusts depending on the RD position,
- possibility of synchronized shifting.

Not for everyone this is reason enough to switch to electronic shifting. Choice is good like Andrew always says, but electronic shifting proved to be extremely reliable and battery life is no issue. Personally I charge my battery once per season.

Lou


Yeah. After my favourable experience with full auto cycling, which commuters and utility cyclists apparently didn't want though it was given a fair go by leading bicycle manufacturers, including Gaselle and Koga Miyata, I was surprised when roadies took up the cut-down version. But if it has the advantages you list, there should be a market among racers and serious riders, not just the tech-fashionistas (not a knock at anyone -- I'm one myself). But, if I were in that roadie market, I'd be disappointed that after several years the price hasn't come down through economies of scale.

Andre Jute
Old Smoothie


That isn't the sort of group that would have economy of scale since it would require precise machining of the components making it only the top end components. The electronics themselves would make up a very small part of the cost.


We're at cross-purposes here, Tom. You're thinking of derailleur automatic gears. I'm talking about automatic gears on a hub gearbox, which already contains the precision-machined gears, and has added to it a single reversible stepper motor, to move the gear change lever up or down, and some electronics, which needn't be expensive after the development cost is paid.

However, I have no idea what the profit margins are on these components and that could cause a reduction in price.


Quite. I don't know either because the only full-automatic with substantial uptake was the Shimano "Smover" Di2 group sold only to manufacturers, so we don't know even the nominal price per set, never mind what a power in the marketplace like Gazelle would have negotiated it down to.

We have to distinguish the HGB full auto from the cut-down derailleur version which isn't in fact automatic but merely electrically switched.

Andre Jute
Ride tall
  #43  
Old July 14th 19, 03:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Electronic Shifting

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 1:43:46 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 13/07/2019 20:49, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 11:59:31 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski

Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.

Lou


Shimano really does have brifters down to an artform. When I install them on a bike they always work until dirt or dust gets into the 10 or more speed versions. I never saw a set of 8-speed brifters fail.


I have had three Shimano brifters fail, two 8 speed.

The first was an 8 speed Sora which failed when the spring controlling
the rachet mechanism slipped out of place, this was fixable. My next 9
speed Sora failed in the same way, but by then Shimano had changed the
design so I couldn't dismantle it and repair it.

The second 8 speed failure was earlier this year, on the latest Claris.
Internally the Claris brifter works by wrapping the gear cable around a
plastic wheel. Over time the gear cable had cut into the wheel. This had
the effect of reducing the radius of the wheel and hence the cable pull.
My suspicion was that this was partially due to increased tension
required by tighter bends on internally routed cables.


The internal guides can be a problem, but depending on the shifter, they are one of the few parts that can be replaced -- assuming you can find a replacement. I broke a guide while installing a first generation Shimano hydraulic road lever and bought two spares from a shop in England. That was probably the entire stock of the Western world.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #44  
Old July 14th 19, 04:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default Electronic Shifting

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 4:44:40 AM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:

My expectation for the future would be no wiring. Each component having
its own battery and the using wireless communication. Cheap and simple.


But vulnerable to Russian hacking. If Putin gets up on the wrong side of the bed,
we could find all our bikes rapidly auto-shifting from high to low until our
batteries are dead.

All the bikes that are currently curing congestion in our cities will be
useless. The roads will immediately gridlock with all the extra cars. Western
commerce will grind to a halt!

Yep, electronic shifting is a communist plot.

- Frank Krygowski
  #45  
Old July 14th 19, 04:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Electronic Shifting

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 1:31:22 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 1:03:25 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 10:50:47 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 5:41:42 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 10:19:22 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
This stuff is really expensive. But is it reliable? Looking in Craigslist shows a LOT of electronic groups for sale. Though they sure aren't going cheap.

The major question is: what need did they fulfill? Is there any cable failures at the pro-level? Any sticking gears or jumping gears that are attributable to the cables?

Well, on 11 speeds the rear derailleurs do have much better indexing. While the cable shifted groups index in the brifters, the electronic groups are indexed inside of the rear and front derailleurs. This makes it certainly more immediately available to the position.

But this would certainly be something that would work just as well with cable actuation and it would make the Brifters a whole hell of a lot cheaper though they would add the problem that like the electronic shifting you have to shift one gear at a time and with the cable units you can shift multiple gears at once with DuraAce or Record though not with SRAM.

With cables it would take two cables to operate in two directions or perhaps one cable pulled on both directions - sort of in a circle.

The advantage would be that you wouldn't have to plug the things in and as is usual, eventually this sort of stuff ends up on touring bikes that do not have the capability of charging anything.

My friend downloads European coverage off of the web and he says that he has watch many (not some) failures of these electronic groups. The one that I saw in person failed on the very first ride. He didn't tell me what he did but I haven't seen any failures since.

But even watching NBC Sports which pans away from failures, I watched two very obvious electronic shifting failures today alone. And on the other stages I have wondered why they were replacing bikes rather than a wheel without even looking at a flat.

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.

I think the advantage of electronic shifting is difficult to quantify. Using it for 4 years on my crossbike and 2 years on one of my road bikes my opinion is:
- it is more convenient,
- it shifts quicker because of less travel of the switch/lever,
- it is more convenient in case of internal cable routing. Install it once and never worry about it afterwards,
- once adjusted never touch it again,
- FD shifts under load,
- the FD auto adjusts depending on the RD position,
- possibility of synchronized shifting.

Not for everyone this is reason enough to switch to electronic shifting. Choice is good like Andrew always says, but electronic shifting proved to be extremely reliable and battery life is no issue. Personally I charge my battery once per season.

Lou

The rear derailleur in an electronic shifting bike has the ratcheting mechanism in the derailleur. This is both a positive and a negative. It would seem to me that high quality stainless cables designed in a circular pattern would work as well if not better than an electronic design and would essentially last forever with internal routing.


Possible. The shifter of the Rohloff hub has a circular cable.

As you probably saw in Stage 7, as one rider crossed the line he attempted to shift the front derailleur under load and it got caught in some intermedia position and he had to mess with it a second to get it into some gear so that he could cross the line under his own power. Looked to me like he lost a couple of seconds there.


Yes that looked very strange. I don't know what he was doing but as far as I know he dropped his chain and was trying to get it on the chainwheel again, but because it was so steep there and he had almost no speed it took a whil. He lost no time though because he front wheel was already past the finish line.


I don't think that battery life is really a problem but it sure as hell isn't "2-3 years". And you do have to admit that it is a source for a possible failure more likely than a cable.


2-3 years seems a long time to me also. I'm not afraid of a possible failure and don't suffer from 'black box' syndrome. If I rent a bike when I am on cycling holiday and cannot bring my own bike I choose one with Di2 if that is possible. I think Di2 is about convenience. Not a game changer but nice.


I charge my 7970 battery once every 2 or 3 years. And then its just because I remember to do it, not because the battery is actually dead. The 7970 battery is a big deck of cards size battery that mounts on the downtube. Unfortunately I don't ride the bike every day or even a lot of miles. And don't really shift a lot either since its flat where I live. And basically do almost all of my shifting with the rear derailleur, not the energy using shifts of the front derailleur.





The auto-adjusting feature is a new one on me and that sounds clever.


What I meant was auto trimming. One feature I do use is the adjustment while riding. I have two wheel I use and they require a different adjustment. I get the system in adjustment mode by pressing a button while riding. I see my current adjustment on the display of my Garmin and I know that one wheel need an adjustment of +2 and the other -1. Like I said convenience.

Lou


If you ride where you don't shift and you don't ride all that much, WHY were you willing to pay some exorbitant amount for some comparatively useless electronic shifters?
  #46  
Old July 14th 19, 04:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Electronic Shifting

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 1:43:46 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 13/07/2019 20:49, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 11:59:31 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski

Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.

Lou


Shimano really does have brifters down to an artform. When I install them on a bike they always work until dirt or dust gets into the 10 or more speed versions. I never saw a set of 8-speed brifters fail.


I have had three Shimano brifters fail, two 8 speed.

The first was an 8 speed Sora which failed when the spring controlling
the rachet mechanism slipped out of place, this was fixable. My next 9
speed Sora failed in the same way, but by then Shimano had changed the
design so I couldn't dismantle it and repair it.

The second 8 speed failure was earlier this year, on the latest Claris.
Internally the Claris brifter works by wrapping the gear cable around a
plastic wheel. Over time the gear cable had cut into the wheel. This had
the effect of reducing the radius of the wheel and hence the cable pull.
My suspicion was that this was partially due to increased tension
required by tighter bends on internally routed cables.



Tom, I was speaking of 105 or higher level Shimano that is made in Japan. The lower level stuff is made in China for the cheapest possible price. So I really wouldn't classify that new-version 8 or 9 speed stuff in the same category as an older 600 setup.
  #47  
Old July 14th 19, 04:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Electronic Shifting

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 1:44:40 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 22:01, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 10/07/2019 21:19, Tom Kunich wrote:

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.

Long term it will probably be cheaper than mechanical.

It simplifies quite a few things. Simpler shifters, no gear cables, no
need for frame additions to route gear cables. The electronic components
will be dirt cheap.


What is the different between internal routing of wires (that come with the group) and cables? Since the ratcheting mechanism is in the rear derailleur instead of the shifters it would be a little cheaper to maintain I imagine.


My expectation for the future would be no wiring. Each component having
its own battery and the using wireless communication. Cheap and simple.


Yesterday in Stage 7 you could see some guy grab a handful of brakes because he was about to touch a wheel. The hydraulic disk locked up and top-ended and threw him right on his face. Pretty ugly and EXACTLY what I did on my cyclocross bike.


My disk brake newbie/cross bike newbie failure was to lose the back
wheel braking and cornering in the wet. For some reason I thought disk
brakes and 40mm tyres could change the laws of physics, unfortunately not..


They had the camera directly on one of the bikes in the Tour as he took a near miss and slammed on the disk. The effect was exactly the same that I had on my cyclocross bike coming down a steep off-road hill - The bike turned directly over the front wheel. On flat road that is one thing but going down that steep hill was another thing altogether since I must have fallen at least 10 feet and more likely 12. But that also gave me time to turn and land on my side. And the ground was soft enough not to break bones.
  #48  
Old July 14th 19, 05:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Electronic Shifting

On Sunday, July 14, 2019 at 3:20:10 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:54:22 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 5:52:39 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 1:41:42 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 10:19:22 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
This stuff is really expensive. But is it reliable? Looking in Craigslist shows a LOT of electronic groups for sale. Though they sure aren't going cheap.

The major question is: what need did they fulfill? Is there any cable failures at the pro-level? Any sticking gears or jumping gears that are attributable to the cables?

Well, on 11 speeds the rear derailleurs do have much better indexing. While the cable shifted groups index in the brifters, the electronic groups are indexed inside of the rear and front derailleurs. This makes it certainly more immediately available to the position.

But this would certainly be something that would work just as well with cable actuation and it would make the Brifters a whole hell of a lot cheaper though they would add the problem that like the electronic shifting you have to shift one gear at a time and with the cable units you can shift multiple gears at once with DuraAce or Record though not with SRAM.

With cables it would take two cables to operate in two directions or perhaps one cable pulled on both directions - sort of in a circle.

The advantage would be that you wouldn't have to plug the things in and as is usual, eventually this sort of stuff ends up on touring bikes that do not have the capability of charging anything.

My friend downloads European coverage off of the web and he says that he has watch many (not some) failures of these electronic groups. The one that I saw in person failed on the very first ride. He didn't tell me what he did but I haven't seen any failures since.

But even watching NBC Sports which pans away from failures, I watched two very obvious electronic shifting failures today alone. And on the other stages I have wondered why they were replacing bikes rather than a wheel without even looking at a flat.

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.

I think the advantage of electronic shifting is difficult to quantify. Using it for 4 years on my crossbike and 2 years on one of my road bikes my opinion is:
- it is more convenient,
- it shifts quicker because of less travel of the switch/lever,
- it is more convenient in case of internal cable routing. Install it once and never worry about it afterwards,
- once adjusted never touch it again,
- FD shifts under load,
- the FD auto adjusts depending on the RD position,
- possibility of synchronized shifting.

Not for everyone this is reason enough to switch to electronic shifting. Choice is good like Andrew always says, but electronic shifting proved to be extremely reliable and battery life is no issue. Personally I charge my battery once per season.

Lou

Yeah. After my favourable experience with full auto cycling, which commuters and utility cyclists apparently didn't want though it was given a fair go by leading bicycle manufacturers, including Gaselle and Koga Miyata, I was surprised when roadies took up the cut-down version. But if it has the advantages you list, there should be a market among racers and serious riders, not just the tech-fashionistas (not a knock at anyone -- I'm one myself). But, if I were in that roadie market, I'd be disappointed that after several years the price hasn't come down through economies of scale.

Andre Jute
Old Smoothie


That isn't the sort of group that would have economy of scale since it would require precise machining of the components making it only the top end components. The electronics themselves would make up a very small part of the cost.


We're at cross-purposes here, Tom. You're thinking of derailleur automatic gears. I'm talking about automatic gears on a hub gearbox, which already contains the precision-machined gears, and has added to it a single reversible stepper motor, to move the gear change lever up or down, and some electronics, which needn't be expensive after the development cost is paid.

However, I have no idea what the profit margins are on these components and that could cause a reduction in price.


Quite. I don't know either because the only full-automatic with substantial uptake was the Shimano "Smover" Di2 group sold only to manufacturers, so we don't know even the nominal price per set, never mind what a power in the marketplace like Gazelle would have negotiated it down to.

We have to distinguish the HGB full auto from the cut-down derailleur version which isn't in fact automatic but merely electrically switched.

Andre Jute
Ride tall


Those sorts of automatic transmissions don't require any electronics. Of course if you were to be riding it hard the power loss through the hydraulic mechanism would be significant though for a commuter I don't think it would be noticeable.
  #49  
Old July 14th 19, 05:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Electronic Shifting

On 7/13/2019 3:44 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 10:56:43 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 2:59:31 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski

Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.


Ah, same as my shifters, then!

No, I take that back. There was a problem with a three speed trigger shifter...

But I have had friends who had STI failures, who called me to come help get them
going. One was on a brand new bike, bought two days before a week long bike tour.
Another was a bike that had been in storage for maybe a year. A third was my
daughter's bike on our longest tour, that consistently missed shifts onto the
largest cog. I was once asked to help with a broken cable, too (inside the mechanism)
but I wasn't able to straighten that out before having to leave for home.

I know they work fine for most people, and I think they've gotten more reliable
over the decades. But your preference is almost always for more technology. Mine
is almost always for more simplicity and repairability. I doubt either of us
will change.

- Frank Krygowski


I remember back in the day when downtube shifters were about the only game in town for 10-speeds or more gears. I also remember that those shifters would often miss a shift or auto-shift to a heavier gear when the washers in them wore out or if the fixing bolt came loose which many of them did.

Cheers


Not wear, dirt. For nearly all friction shifters, a
cleaning, then a film of oil on the mating surfaces makes
them like new.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #50  
Old July 14th 19, 05:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Electronic Shifting

On 7/13/2019 4:07 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 9:53:19 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 1:34:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:56:43 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 2:59:31 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski

Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.

Ah, same as my shifters, then!

No, I take that back. There was a problem with a three speed trigger shifter...

But I have had friends who had STI failures, who called me to come help get them
going. One was on a brand new bike, bought two days before a week long bike tour.
Another was a bike that had been in storage for maybe a year. A third was my
daughter's bike on our longest tour, that consistently missed shifts onto the
largest cog. I was once asked to help with a broken cable, too (inside the mechanism)
but I wasn't able to straighten that out before having to leave for home.

I know they work fine for most people, and I think they've gotten more reliable
over the decades. But your preference is almost always for more technology. Mine
is almost always for more simplicity and repairability. I doubt either of us
will change.

- Frank Krygowski

It is clear that we live in a different cycling universe and I have little hope that I get you out of the eighties of last the century. That is OK. What I am trying to say to other people was that reliability can't be the reason to deny themselves the ease of use of brifters and even electronic shifting. Fortunately 99.9% of the people figured that out by themselves.


I _very_ much doubt that 99.9% of bicyclists always use brifters or electronic shifting.


With brifters and/or electronic shifting we are talking about road bikes. Well in that case on this side of the pond more than 99.9% uses them.

In fact, I doubt that 99.9% of rec.bicycles.tech readers always use
brifters or electronic shifting.


Again I am talking about road bikes but I have to admit that the people here would make a very odd subset of the road bike users on this side of the pond. Hell most of the utility bikes users here can shift without taken their hands from the brake position what is the essence of brifters.

There are many types of bicyclists and many types of bicyclists - AKA many
different cycling universes. That is way better than OK. Don't imagine your
personal riding style and equipment choices are the only legitimate ones, nor
the "best" ones.


Never said there aren't more than one cycling universes and I never said mine is the only or the best one. I only share my experiences with new/modern (training)equipment. Unlike you I prepared to 'gamble' once in a while with the chance to make a mistake and waste some money. My loss and I blame nobody. By doing that I have experience with all kinds of frame materials (steel, aluminum, titanium, CF). I have experience with brifters; Shimano and Campagnolo for many years. I have experience with an aero bike and wheels. Use training aids like heart rate monitor and power meters. I have experience with electronic shifting for 5 years now. Heck I ride a utility bike my whole life. When these subjects come around I now what I'm talking about and not only from heresay. If Sturmey Archer 3 speed hubs come around I shut up and leave it to the people who still uses them and I know nothing about touring and touring bikes. For the record I gave up on ATB's because of the ridiculous technic

al developments, GoreTex clothing is bull**** and 1x11/12 drivetrains is beyond me. Have a nice day.

Lou


My current bikes include derailleur gearing, an SA gearbox
and fixed gear. Each is perfect for what I do with it, none
is better than another overall.

Ditto for material on those Ti, steel and carbon machines.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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