Minnesota Winters

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:03:05 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 01:33:32 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

[...]
Translation - I do not read with an anti-Jobst agenda. YAWN

it's not anti-jobst, it's anti made-up bull**** - that's where you're
making your huge mistake. i'll dish it out to /anyone/ that pollutes
the knowledge pool with misinformation and underinformed guesswork.
just like we saw with nate, it's the lies and bullying that keep people
with real information away. and that's just plain WRONG.
YAWN

hmmm, the seeker of truth and purity when it comes to andre jute affects
disinterest when it comes to correcting the mistakes of his flawed hero.
how perverse. and lightweight.

Zzzzzzzzzz...

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

Tom Sherman wrote:
"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:03:05 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 01:33:32 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

[...]
Translation - I do not read with an anti-Jobst agenda. YAWN

it's not anti-jobst, it's anti made-up bull**** - that's where you're
making your huge mistake. i'll dish it out to /anyone/ that pollutes
the knowledge pool with misinformation and underinformed guesswork.
just like we saw with nate, it's the lies and bullying that keep people
with real information away. and that's just plain WRONG.
YAWN

hmmm, the seeker of truth and purity when it comes to andre jute
affects disinterest when it comes to correcting the mistakes of his
flawed hero. how perverse. and lightweight.

Zzzzzzzzzz...


penny still not dropped i see... lightweight.

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:05:04 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 02:45:46 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

Tom Keats wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman writes:

Press fits are designed to have things crammed together with high
force and deformation of the parts involved. Would you ride a square
taper crank that you could push onto the spindle by hand?
That's a way different matter from swaging, and you know it!

Press fitting a cotter is not swaging in primary intent either.
you don't have experience of cotter pins then - they come out deformed.
What part of "primary intent" do you not understand?

what part of "not intended to be deformed" do /you/ not understand?
lightweight.

No deformation, even elastic, in a press fit?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:00:09 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:05:04 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 02:45:46 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

Tom Keats wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman writes:

Press fits are designed to have things crammed together with high
force and deformation of the parts involved. Would you ride a
square taper crank that you could push onto the spindle by hand?
That's a way different matter from swaging, and you know it!

Press fitting a cotter is not swaging in primary intent either.
you don't have experience of cotter pins then - they come out
deformed.
What part of "primary intent" do you not understand?

what part of "not intended to be deformed" do /you/ not understand?
lightweight.

No deformation, even elastic, in a press fit?

ok, let's play this little game, lightweight: what kind of deformation do /
you/ think the cotter pin should experience? be specific to the spindle
interface. [be careful though - you might find yourself talking tech.]

"jim beam" wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:00:09 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:05:04 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 02:45:46 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

Tom Keats wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman writes:

Press fits are designed to have things crammed together with high
force and deformation of the parts involved. Would you ride a
square taper crank that you could push onto the spindle by hand?
That's a way different matter from swaging, and you know it!

Press fitting a cotter is not swaging in primary intent either.
you don't have experience of cotter pins then - they come out
deformed.
What part of "primary intent" do you not understand?
what part of "not intended to be deformed" do /you/ not understand?
lightweight.
No deformation, even elastic, in a press fit?

ok, let's play this little game, lightweight: what kind of deformation do /
you/ think the cotter pin should experience? be specific to the spindle
interface. [be careful though - you might find yourself talking tech.]

Keep changing the subject to duck the question. yawn

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

Tom Sherman wrote:
"jim beam" wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:00:09 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:05:04 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 02:45:46 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

Tom Keats wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman writes:

Press fits are designed to have things crammed together with high
force and deformation of the parts involved. Would you ride a
square taper crank that you could push onto the spindle by hand?
That's a way different matter from swaging, and you know it!

Press fitting a cotter is not swaging in primary intent either.
you don't have experience of cotter pins then - they come out
deformed.
What part of "primary intent" do you not understand?
what part of "not intended to be deformed" do /you/ not understand?
lightweight.
No deformation, even elastic, in a press fit?

ok, let's play this little game, lightweight: what kind of deformation
do /
you/ think the cotter pin should experience? be specific to the
spindle interface. [be careful though - you might find yourself
talking tech.]

Keep changing the subject to duck the question. yawn


i'm /am/ on subject tom - cotter pins. you, apparently, are not.
goddamned lightweight.

"jim beam" wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
"jim beam" wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:00:09 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:05:04 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 02:45:46 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

Tom Keats wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman writes:

Press fits are designed to have things crammed together with high
force and deformation of the parts involved. Would you ride a
square taper crank that you could push onto the spindle by hand?
That's a way different matter from swaging, and you know it!

Press fitting a cotter is not swaging in primary intent either.
you don't have experience of cotter pins then - they come out
deformed.
What part of "primary intent" do you not understand?
what part of "not intended to be deformed" do /you/ not understand?
lightweight.
No deformation, even elastic, in a press fit?

ok, let's play this little game, lightweight: what kind of
deformation do /
you/ think the cotter pin should experience? be specific to the
spindle interface. [be careful though - you might find yourself
talking tech.]

Keep changing the subject to duck the question. yawn


i'm /am/ on subject tom - cotter pins. you, apparently, are not.
goddamned lightweight.

yawn

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

Tom Sherman wrote:
"jim beam" wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
"jim beam" wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:00:09 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:05:04 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

"jim beam" wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 02:45:46 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

Tom Keats wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman writes:

Press fits are designed to have things crammed together with
high
force and deformation of the parts involved. Would you ride a
square taper crank that you could push onto the spindle by hand?
That's a way different matter from swaging, and you know it!

Press fitting a cotter is not swaging in primary intent either.
you don't have experience of cotter pins then - they come out
deformed.
What part of "primary intent" do you not understand?
what part of "not intended to be deformed" do /you/ not understand?
lightweight.
No deformation, even elastic, in a press fit?

ok, let's play this little game, lightweight: what kind of
deformation do /
you/ think the cotter pin should experience? be specific to the
spindle interface. [be careful though - you might find yourself
talking tech.]

Keep changing the subject to duck the question. yawn


i'm /am/ on subject tom - cotter pins. you, apparently, are not.
goddamned lightweight.

yawn


goddamned lightweight.

In article ,
Tom Sherman writes:
Tom Keats wrote:
In article ,
Tom Sherman writes:

Press fits are designed to have things crammed together with high force
and deformation of the parts involved. Would you ride a square taper
crank that you could push onto the spindle by hand?

That's a way different matter from swaging, and you know it!

Press fitting a cotter is not swaging in primary intent either.

Then the pin should match the hole with less than sloppy tolerance.

Y'know what? I've seen horror stories where crank cotters have
failed, and riders with disembodied pedal/crank combinations
stuck to one shoe.

And if cotter pins have to be pounded (or fastidiously pressed)
into their holes, why are they chrome-plated all over? all that
ramming & jamming is just going to peel off the chrome plate anyway.

When things fit well together, life is good, and is as it
should be.

I guess 3-piece cranks are a pretty good bike innovation.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:06:12 -0600, A Muzi wrote:

jim beam wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:51:47 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:

Tom Keats wrote:

If I had a bike with cotter cranks that needed servicing, I would
take it to the shop with proper tools, such as Mr. Muzi's. A cotter
pin that does NOT require significant force to insert will NOT form
a press fit,
OK. You want an oversized something forced into a weakened hole,
thereby further weakening it.
What an American approach.
which is what this interface requires to function as intended.
The interface requires proper fitting of crank, spindle and cotter
pin. And yet you want everything to depend on some fat guy/thing. How
typical.
Well, if that's what you want, knock yerself out. Shove
barrel-chested pins into your cranks, spread your metal apart, and
see what happens.
That settles it for me. You have no idea what cottered cranks are and
how thy work.

that's clearly not true.




Not only that, but you show a lack of understanding of force
transmitting mechanical interfaces, yet you choose to others who do,
how it should be done in the vaguest of terms.

so, great and mighty jobst brandt the expert engineer, how do you
reconcile pedal spindle thread fretting with cotter pin [supposed] non-
fretting??? by your logic, all you'd need to do is over-tighten the
pedal into the crank arm so it wedges hard enough. because that's what
you're asking us to take on faith for cotter pins - which were
notorious for getting chewed.

Well, yes and no.

Professional track bikes were still commonly equipped with premium
forged steel pinned cranks in my youth. And I commonly work on vintage
professional quality bikes with quite well made (and pretty!) steel
pinned cranks. Properly set, the pins are reliable.

Cheaply made, poorly machined cranks or cranks with pins bashed in by
hammer at home or, as Mr Keats suggests, merely drawn up by the nut, are
indeed failure prone. The pins will move under load. Once there is
movement the facet of the pin against the spindle becomes notched.

in my experience, and i was only around for their latter years, cotter
pins were cheap crap made of ridiculously soft material. /those/ things
couldn't be persuaded to be reliable under any circumstance. however,
some of the older stuff i saw had cotter pins made of high quality high
strength steel that was probably as hard as the spindle. now, if they
were properly finished, so the contact face was properly flat, they could
could be quite reliable. but even those, badly finished, would get mauled
because the interface contact area was insufficient. and they were
impossible to get when i needed new ones.

i jumped on board cotterless cranks as soon as i could. great
improvement.