Minnesota Winters

"jim beam" wrote:
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:52:56 +0000, Clive George wrote:

"Jay Beattie" wrote in message
...
On Dec 17, 6:08 am, "
wrote:
On Dec 17, 7:41 am, jim beam wrote:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:25:07 -0800, Jay Beattie wrote:
snip for clarity
On a somewhat tech note, I went to put on my (car) snow wheels on
Saturday, and my aluminum rims had welded to the iron hubs. Should
have
used my anti-seize! Getting those mo-fos off was a monumental PIA,
but
finally got it done.
actually pretty easy to do this - simply loosen the lug nuts a
couple of
turns, then go drive around the block. a couple of hard braking
episodes
will break free the stubbornest of rusted wheels.
God Danged Jim. Thats the only intelligent thing you've ever posted on
this forum.
I did that, and it worked with the front wheel but not the rear wheel.
I had to take additional measures for the rear wheel, including putting
some Liquid Wrench between the rim and hub and engaging in the telephone
book rhumba -- you loosen the lug nuts and then drive the stuck wheel
over a phone book, back and forth. Then you kick the wheel in strategic
locations. That finally worked. Or maybe it was the swearing that did
it.
My 4lb club hammer was bought specifically to remove a wheel from my
car. I'd tried the 1lb one, no joy, no matter how hard I went at it. 4lb
one, smack, wheel off.

smack. brinelled bearings. specifically unjoyous deployment of a 4lb
hammer when the car's own function can serve the purpose, and not damage
anything.

How come bottom bracket bearing do NOT have this problem when a hammer
is used to drive cotter pins in [1] and out on cranks?

[1] No, tightening is NOT done with the nut with attaching a cottered crank.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

In article ,
Tom Sherman writes:

smack. brinelled bearings. specifically unjoyous deployment of a 4lb
hammer when the car's own function can serve the purpose, and not damage
anything.

How come bottom bracket bearing do NOT have this problem when a hammer
is used to drive cotter pins in [1] and out on cranks?

[1] No, tightening is NOT done with the nut with attaching a cottered crank.

When cotter pins have to be pounded in, there's
something horribly wrong. It usually happens
from the bike shop who doesn't quite have the
exact match of what you require, and gives you
what they consider the next closest thing.
It's an all too common occurance.

Anyways, bearings get ruined by being used
dry of grease/lubricant.

cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Tom Keats wrote:

smack. Brinelled bearings. specifically unjoyous deployment of a
4lb hammer when the car's own function can serve the purpose, and
not damage anything.

How come bottom bracket bearing do NOT have this problem when a
hammer is used to drive cotter pins in [1] and out on cranks?

[1] No, tightening is NOT done with the nut with attaching a
cottered crank.

When cotter pins have to be pounded in, there's something horribly
wrong. It usually happens from the bike shop who doesn't quite have
the exact match of what you require, and gives you what they
consider the next closest thing. It's an all too common occurrence.

Anyway, bearings get ruined by being used dry of grease/lubricant.

I'd like to hear more about that. Who rides with lubricant free BB
bearings? Besides, no matter how you brace the spindle when pounding
in cotters, the shock reaches the ball or two under the spindle. In
addition, I saw many cranks secured without more than a 1/2 lb hammer
held under the crank, yet no dents in the spindle resulted.

I still have cottered crank spindles lying around that have no sign of
Brinelling although I have a few head sets where both top and bottom
ball bearings as well a roller bearing ones have fretting dimples.

Jobst Brandt

In article ,
writes:
Tom Keats wrote:

smack. Brinelled bearings. specifically unjoyous deployment of a
4lb hammer when the car's own function can serve the purpose, and
not damage anything.

How come bottom bracket bearing do NOT have this problem when a
hammer is used to drive cotter pins in [1] and out on cranks?

[1] No, tightening is NOT done with the nut with attaching a
cottered crank.

When cotter pins have to be pounded in, there's something horribly
wrong. It usually happens from the bike shop who doesn't quite have
the exact match of what you require, and gives you what they
consider the next closest thing. It's an all too common occurrence.

Anyway, bearings get ruined by being used dry of grease/lubricant.

I'd like to hear more about that. Who rides with lubricant free BB
bearings?

A number of Pacific NorthWesters who frequently ride through
deep puddles and torrential rainfalls, and don't maintain their
bikes as well as they should for the prevailing conditions.

Besides, no matter how you brace the spindle when pounding
in cotters, the shock reaches the ball or two under the spindle. In

You shouldn't have to pound them in. If you have to pound
them in, they don't fit. Maybe tap them in a little, sure --
but to ~pound~ them in?! Nay.

addition, I saw many cranks secured without more than a 1/2 lb hammer
held under the crank, yet no dents in the spindle resulted.

Of course. The cotters were being smote with a hammer,
not the spindles. I don't think I've ever seen a
dented spindle. I've seen spindles with badly scoured
cones, though. Because the bearings were run dry of lube.

I still have cottered crank spindles lying around that have no sign of
Brinelling although I have a few head sets where both top and bottom
ball bearings as well a roller bearing ones have fretting dimples.

In these rainy Pacific Northwest climes, the lower headset
bearing gets the brunt of the weather, especially when
unprotected by a front fender. The cup serves to guide
splashed-up water into the bearing, washing the lube out.

And it's a sneaky effect, because as long as the upper headset
bearing is fine, everything can appear to be good.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Tom Keats wrote:

smack. Brinelled bearings. specifically unjoyous deployment of
a 4lb hammer when the car's own function can serve the purpose,
and not damage anything.

How come bottom bracket bearing do NOT have this problem when a
hammer is used to drive cotter pins in [1] and out on cranks?

[1] No, tightening is NOT done with the nut with attaching a
cottered crank.

When cotter pins have to be pounded in, there's something horribly
wrong. It usually happens from the bike shop who doesn't quite
have the exact match of what you require, and gives you what they
consider the next closest thing. It's an all too common
occurrence.

Anyway, bearings get ruined by being used dry of grease/lubricant.

I'd like to hear more about that. Who rides with lubricant free BB
bearings?

A number of Pacific Northwesters who frequently ride through deep
puddles and torrential rainfalls, and don't maintain their bikes as
well as they should for the prevailing conditions.

Besides, no matter how you brace the spindle when pounding in
cotters, the shock reaches the ball or two under the spindle. In

You shouldn't have to pound them in. If you have to pound them in,
they don't fit. Maybe tap them in a little, sure -- but to ~pound~
them in?! Nay.

I see you don't work with these. They must be pressed in with
enormous force to give enough preload and insure no "lift-off" from
the small cotter face under hard torque. Those of us who lived
through the steel crank + cotters can recall how they failed with
excess torque if not installed forcefully enough.

They must be driven in with a hammer or a special press. Not only
that, the also needed to be filed to the right wedge angle to match
the other crank in a one side replacement. The off-the-shelf cotter
not being ready to install. The flat taper was only an indication of
where the flat belonged because the threaded end was offset to pass
under the spindle flat. Again, it is a retention nut, not one that
can be used to install the cotter, it having insufficient strength for
that task.

addition, I saw many cranks secured without more than a 1/2 lb
hammer held under the crank, yet no dents in the spindle resulted.

Of course. The cotters were being smote with a hammer, not the
spindles. I don't think I've ever seen a dented spindle. I've seen
spindles with badly scoured cones, though. Because the bearings
were run dry of lube.

Where do you suppose the reaction force went if not through the
spindle to the bearing cups?

I still have cottered crank spindles lying around that have no sign
of Brinelling although I have a few head sets where both top and
bottom ball bearings as well a roller bearing ones have fretting
dimples.

In these rainy Pacific Northwest climes, the lower headset bearing
gets the brunt of the weather, especially when unprotected by a
front fender. The cup serves to guide splashed-up water into the
bearing, washing the lube out.

And it's a sneaky effect, because as long as the upper headset
bearing is fine, everything can appear to be good.

I don't think you analyzed the head bearings correctly. If they were
being bathed in water, they would rust solid when parked. On
inspection, they are not full of water and did not rust. As I
explained, this is a fretting b=problem and that is why the upper head
bearing also shows home position dimples.

Fortunately this problem has been solved with current bearings.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/i...-steering.html

Jobst Brandt

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:21:17 +0000, Clive George wrote:

"jim beam" wrote in message
...

actually pretty easy to do this - simply loosen the lug nuts a
couple of
turns, then go drive around the block. a couple of hard braking
episodes
will break free the stubbornest of rusted wheels.

God Danged Jim. Thats the only intelligent thing you've ever posted
on this forum.

I did that, and it worked with the front wheel but not the rear wheel.
I had to take additional measures for the rear wheel, including
putting some Liquid Wrench between the rim and hub and engaging in the
telephone book rhumba -- you loosen the lug nuts and then drive the
stuck wheel over a phone book, back and forth. Then you kick the
wheel in strategic locations. That finally worked. Or maybe it was
the swearing that did it.

My 4lb club hammer was bought specifically to remove a wheel from my
car. I'd tried the 1lb one, no joy, no matter how hard I went at it.
4lb one, smack, wheel off.

smack. brinelled bearings. specifically unjoyous deployment of a 4lb
hammer when the car's own function can serve the purpose, and not
damage anything.

And what sort of loads + impacts do the bearings get in normal use?

why don't you work it out? mass. acceleration. point contact area.


What
impacts do they get when you're driving around with loose nuts? You're
raising bogus worries.

no, i'm speaking from experience of failure analysis. bearings that get
hammered get brinelled and subsequently fail. this is not knowledge
exclusive to scientists - technicians with shop experience long enough to
see the consequences will tell you that.

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:10:48 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:

In article ,
"Clive George" wrote:

"jim beam" wrote in message
...

actually pretty easy to do this - simply loosen the lug nuts a
couple of turns, then go drive around the block. a couple of
hard braking episodes will break free the stubbornest of rusted
wheels.

God Danged Jim. Thats the only intelligent thing you've ever
posted on this forum.

I did that, and it worked with the front wheel but not the rear
wheel. I had to take additional measures for the rear wheel,
including putting some Liquid Wrench between the rim and hub and
engaging in the telephone book rhumba -- you loosen the lug nuts and
then drive the stuck wheel over a phone book, back and forth. Then
you kick the wheel in strategic locations. That finally worked. Or
maybe it was the swearing that did it.

My 4lb club hammer was bought specifically to remove a wheel from my
car. I'd tried the 1lb one, no joy, no matter how hard I went at it.
4lb one, smack, wheel off.

smack. brinelled bearings. specifically unjoyous deployment of a
4lb hammer when the car's own function can serve the purpose, and not
damage anything.

And what sort of loads + impacts do the bearings get in normal use?
What impacts do they get when you're driving around with loose nuts?
You're raising bogus worries.

Not our jim!

timmy, why don't you tell us how you managed to calculate how 1800
5000? the mathematical world is on the edge of its seat.

or not. because you're a retard.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 00:24:03 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:

"jim beam" wrote:
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:52:56 +0000, Clive George wrote:

"Jay Beattie" wrote in message
news:52f52205-62dd-4d66-ac78-
...
On Dec 17, 6:08 am, "
wrote:
On Dec 17, 7:41 am, jim beam wrote:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:25:07 -0800, Jay Beattie wrote: snip for
clarity
On a somewhat tech note, I went to put on my (car) snow wheels on
Saturday, and my aluminum rims had welded to the iron hubs. Should
have
used my anti-seize! Getting those mo-fos off was a monumental PIA,
but
finally got it done.
actually pretty easy to do this - simply loosen the lug nuts a
couple of
turns, then go drive around the block. a couple of hard braking
episodes
will break free the stubbornest of rusted wheels.
God Danged Jim. Thats the only intelligent thing you've ever posted
on this forum.
I did that, and it worked with the front wheel but not the rear
wheel. I had to take additional measures for the rear wheel,
including putting some Liquid Wrench between the rim and hub and
engaging in the telephone book rhumba -- you loosen the lug nuts and
then drive the stuck wheel over a phone book, back and forth. Then
you kick the wheel in strategic locations. That finally worked. Or
maybe it was the swearing that did it.
My 4lb club hammer was bought specifically to remove a wheel from my
car. I'd tried the 1lb one, no joy, no matter how hard I went at it.
4lb one, smack, wheel off.

smack. brinelled bearings. specifically unjoyous deployment of a 4lb
hammer when the car's own function can serve the purpose, and not
damage anything.

How come bottom bracket bearing do NOT have this problem when a hammer
is used to drive cotter pins in [1] and out on cranks?

ah, nothing like a little jobstian myth to troll the day along! how's it
working for you tom? have you ever done bearing failure analysis?





[1] No, tightening is NOT done with the nut with attaching a cottered
crank.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:01:09 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:

Tom Keats wrote:

smack. Brinelled bearings. specifically unjoyous deployment of a
4lb hammer when the car's own function can serve the purpose, and not
damage anything.

How come bottom bracket bearing do NOT have this problem when a hammer
is used to drive cotter pins in [1] and out on cranks?

[1] No, tightening is NOT done with the nut with attaching a cottered
crank.

When cotter pins have to be pounded in, there's something horribly
wrong. It usually happens from the bike shop who doesn't quite have
the exact match of what you require, and gives you what they consider
the next closest thing. It's an all too common occurrence.

Anyway, bearings get ruined by being used dry of grease/lubricant.

I'd like to hear more about that. Who rides with lubricant free BB
bearings? Besides, no matter how you brace the spindle when pounding in
cotters, the shock reaches the ball or two under the spindle. In
addition, I saw many cranks secured without more than a 1/2 lb hammer
held under the crank, yet no dents in the spindle resulted.

says the great and mighty jobst brandt. not because it doesn't happen,
but because his ego doesn't allow mistake admission and his lack of
learning doesn't allow correction.





I still have cottered crank spindles lying around that have no sign of
Brinelling

of course! jobst brandt looking for evidence of something that would
evidence his gross ignorance is like the fda looking for evidence of mad
cow disease after they've fired all their inspectors!



although I have a few head sets where both top and bottom
ball bearings as well a roller bearing ones have fretting dimples.

no jobst, you have brinelling dimples. don't protect your ignorance like
it's a virtue.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:14:30 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:

snip usual presumptive, mistaken and underinformed crap

jobst, i know it's late in the day for you, but is there /any/ chance
you'll open a book on materials and deformation before you die? it might
stop you looking like a complete ass.