funny things to do on a bike

Mark Hickey wrote:

Sure. They'll see that we really DO take justice seriously when the
folks who were responsible get punished. That's not the way it's
worked for 30 years in Iraq.

There won't be anything like the sprouts of the seeds of justice in
Iraq until sometime after the US is out of there. There is no
retrieving a humane situation from a boondoggle like this.

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/040511Higgs.html

Chalo Colina

Mark Hickey writes:

I agree that those who are responsible will be held accountable.

This time the military is not looking for Lt. Cally, they are looking
for Pvt Guilty while the generals claim they saw nothing. Not only
did they see it, they instigated it.

... and you know that how, exactly (other than possibly the one female
reservist general who was supposed to be in charge)? I thought one of
the principles of justice we're trying to protect here was the
"innocent until proven guilty thing".

I hope you are not avoiding hearing about this the way Rummy and the
Bushman claim to have been. More and more is coming to light about
who knew and who didn't want to know. International Red Cross
reported extensively about these atrocities in detailed written
reports, including names of people involved, a year ago through
official channels to London and Washington.

Not knowing required diverting ones eyes from the cover letters and
where the documents originated. To me that is a solid sign that top
military officials didn't want these reports to interfere with the
"good results" they were getting in their interrogations. The report
had medical assessments of the cause of death and that these occurred
in detention under military control.

But to assume that means every time some private in the army does
something improper we need to eliminate his or her chain of
command up to and including the president is a little over the
top, don't you think? If we sign up for that program it'll be
hard to know who the president is on any given day. Heck, we'll
probably get an opportunity to hold the job for 15 minutes
ourselves eventually.

I see you don't understand management. Let me repeat. In this
area bicyclists were harassed by Sheriff deputies who wrote plenty
of tickets. One spot in particular was a T-intersection with a
three way stop. Straight through bicyclists passing on the
non-intersecting side of the street, when there was no traffic far
and wide, would be cited for failure to stop while equestrians
could ride merrily through on the same shoulder.

I guess I don't understand management if you describe it that way.

All this action ceased when we got a new sheriff and suddenly the
patrol cars became our friends. That is how effective management
is felt at the lowest echelons. The tone of prison guards is
molded by the instructions and attitudes of superiors, what they
encourage and what is rewarded. Managers who say they didn't know
are either incompetent or outright lying. Take your choice with
Rummy.

So your minimum standard of performance for the Secretary of Defense
is that he knows precisely what every one of the hundreds of
thousands of his soldiers are doing all the time. He's gonna be a
very busy guy. Do you suspect the CEO of HP knows what every one of
his (or is it her?) employees is doing this week? It wouldn't be
any more difficult (probably considerably less). If you "understand
management" you'll know the answer to my question.

You may not have heard but the Bush administration has turned a deaf
ear and blind eye to anything that does not fit their imagined
scenario of freeing and democratizing Iraq, a nation that would love
to sell oil to the United States. It was done under false pretense
(aka lies) and it is going down the drain under those same pretenses.
Unfortunately none of the principals, including Tony Blair, look to
history and the same debacle in 1917 when the British tried the same
thing and failed miserably for the same reasons.

The system will allow for those who "perpetrated the atrocities"
to be punished - rightfully so. It'll also serve as an object
lesson to the Iraqis and to those in the region.

To whom?

I'll type slower... "to the Iraqis and those in the region". They're
not used to accountability.

What does Iraqi accountability have to do with this. There is no
Iraqi government on which to paste that label. You think a show trial
will placate the muslim population of the world. The underbelly of US
brutality has been seen and we have seen it here at home in police
beatings and killings of unarmed people.

In that regard, it's a good thing.

This seems to me a non-sequitur. Could you link that with what is
good about this and what it is doing for Guantanamo prison? The
principals of the Abu Ghraib prison came from warm ups in
Guantanamo where similar stories abound.

Try to Google "Iraq prison deaths".

Sure. They'll see that we really DO take justice seriously when the
folks who were responsible get punished. That's not the way it's
worked for 30 years in Iraq.

If you believe that then you probably believe we won the Viet Nam war
and that the problems encountered were only a bunch of peaceniks in US
cities. What is it from the last 30 years that we are going to set
straight? I hope you notice that more civilians and military Iraqis
have died in this campaign than in the last 30 years of Sadam Hussein
civilian rule. That isn't counting the dead in desert storm or those
we instigated by arming Sadam Hussein in the war against Iran.

Maybe you missed the stories of tank commanders driving over desert
trenches of untrained Iraqi "cannon fodder" and grinding them into the
ground by turning donuts with their tank treads. These American
troops will be suffering from nightmares of having been part of that
for the rest of their lives while families in Iraq will not forget the
accountability we showed.

Jobst Brandt

These American troops will be suffering from nightmares of having been
part of that for the rest of their lives while families in Iraq will
not forget the accountability we showed.

War is Hell. But we're in one, and there isn't any percentage in
undermining effort when it comes to the final objective, that being
the destruction of Al Qaeda and the securing of the oil reserves.

Neither of which is trivial, strategically we have to look at a
conquered Iraq as a bonus point vice Afghanistan, which is not exactly
critical but does give us a military presence along the (nuclear armed)
Pakistan border.

Good victory points.

Why we invaded Iraq is open to question, any junior high school war
gamer would have avoided that situation on the basis of too expensive.




--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
in.edu__________

Eric S. Sande writes:

These American troops will be suffering from nightmares of having
been part of that for the rest of their lives while families in
Iraq will `not forget the accountability we showed.

War is Hell. But we're in one, and there isn't any percentage in
undermining effort when it comes to the final objective, that being
the destruction of Al Qaeda and the securing of the oil reserves.

Maybe you haven't followed the news but Al Qaeda is stronger, has more
allies, and is a larger threat today than before the onset of the
Iraqi war. You cannot destroy Al Qaeda with military action. It is
rooted in suppression of relatively defenseless people who have no
other way of responding than to end their lives in a desperate
statement against their real and perceived enemy of a foreign
government and religion. We are the driving force behind Al Qaeda.
The concept of "War against terrorism" is denial of this fact. Ariel
Sharon is living proof of that.

Neither of which is trivial, strategically we have to look at a
conquered Iraq as a bonus point vice Afghanistan, which is not
exactly critical but does give us a military presence along the
(nuclear armed) Pakistan border.

"Give me liberty or give me death!" the oft quoted words of our kind
of freedom fighter, yet we don't recognize that in others. We are at
that juncture except that we don't recognize that we are the unjust
enemy that inspired these words today.

Good victory points.

Why we invaded Iraq is open to question, any junior high school war
gamer would have avoided that situation on the basis of too
expensive.

Hubris and oil!

Jobst Brandt

Sat, 15 May 2004 17:10:17 GMT,
,
wrote, in part:
\snip

"Give me liberty or give me death!" the oft quoted words of our kind
of freedom fighter, yet we don't recognize that in others. We are at
that juncture except that we don't recognize that we are the unjust
enemy that inspired these words today.

To maintain a secular Iraq with a foreign occupation force, "not as
bad as Saddam", or Hulagu Khan, isn't going to be bad enough.

In one of Karl Marx's more lucid statements, he is reported to have
said, "History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce."

http://www.khilafah.com/home/categor...D=9524&TagID=2
--
zk

Eric S. Sande writes:

Maybe you haven't followed the news but Al Qaeda is stronger, has more
allies, and is a larger threat today than before the onset of the
Iraqi war. You cannot destroy Al Qaeda with military action.

Seems the USA bombed the Al Qaeda training camps to dust in Afghanistan...
seems the 9/11 master mind, that beheaded the Wall Street Journal writer is
sittin' in a jail cell. Seems a drone blew up 6 key Al Qaeda leaders in
Yemen. Seems Bin Laden and his Egyptian lunatic side-kick is hiding in a
cave these days.

No... the USA has to be on the offensive... with military action. The very
very bad people need to be all brought to justice pause or killed.

fwiw

Billy Bigelow writes:

Maybe you haven't followed the news but Al Qaeda is stronger, has
more allies, and is a larger threat today than before the onset of
the Iraqi war. You cannot destroy Al Qaeda with military action.

Seems the USA bombed the Al Qaeda training camps to dust in
Afghanistan... seems the 9/11 master mind, that beheaded the Wall
Street Journal writer is sittin' in a jail cell. Seems a drone blew
up 6 key Al Qaeda leaders in Yemen. Seems Bin Laden and his
Egyptian lunatic side-kick is hiding in a cave these days.

No... the USA has to be on the offensive... with military action.
The very very bad people need to be all brought to justice pause
or killed.

So if all this is improving world safety from Muslim activist, why are
things getting worse in Iraq and security problems growing. How do
you explain the Israeli-Palestinian situation that has followed your
military response for the last few decades.

Have you considered "Why they hate us" enough to commit suicide and
why they see their own lives as expendable in this confrontation?
Study the crusades.

Jobst Brandt

We are the driving force behind Al Qaeda.

That's deep, Jobst. I have no argument with it other than to suggest
that we need to come to terms with our enemy and end the killing.

Negotiation with "terrorists" is not our way.

And I'm not a spokesman for Ariel Sharon.

You will be aware that Al Qaeda offered negotiation with the EU after
the Madrid train station bombing, it was rejected.

It is possible that a dialogue could be established with these people.

That would be a good first step.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
in.edu__________

wrote in message
...
Eric S. Sande writes:

These American troops will be suffering from nightmares of having
been part of that for the rest of their lives while families in
Iraq will `not forget the accountability we showed.

War is Hell. But we're in one, and there isn't any percentage in
undermining effort when it comes to the final objective, that being
the destruction of Al Qaeda and the securing of the oil reserves.

Maybe you haven't followed the news but Al Qaeda is stronger, has more
allies, and is a larger threat today than before the onset of the
Iraqi war. You cannot destroy Al Qaeda with military action.

Wrong.

wrote in message
...
Billy Bigelow writes:

Maybe you haven't followed the news but Al Qaeda is stronger, has
more allies, and is a larger threat today than before the onset of
the Iraqi war. You cannot destroy Al Qaeda with military action.

Seems the USA bombed the Al Qaeda training camps to dust in
Afghanistan... seems the 9/11 master mind, that beheaded the Wall
Street Journal writer is sittin' in a jail cell. Seems a drone blew
up 6 key Al Qaeda leaders in Yemen. Seems Bin Laden and his
Egyptian lunatic side-kick is hiding in a cave these days.

No... the USA has to be on the offensive... with military action.
The very very bad people need to be all brought to justice pause
or killed.

So if all this is improving world safety from Muslim activist, why are
things getting worse in Iraq and security problems growing.

It's a matter of perception. The insurgents were laying low when the existing
Iraqi government was smashed. It wasn't until they started feeling the heat of
June 30 that they began their "uprising." And BTW, have you noticed the shaprly
declining number of coalition deaths/casualties lately, compared to the sharply
rising number of insurgent deaths? This is a sign of their ultimate downfall,
IMNSHO.

How do you explain the Israeli-Palestinian situation that has followed your
military response for the last few decades.


I can explain this one in a single word - "Arafat." He ****ing WALKED AWAY from
the peace table - while holding the gilded lily in his hands - in 1993.

Have you considered "Why they hate us" enough to commit suicide and
why they see their own lives as expendable in this confrontation?
Study the crusades.

Jobst Brandt


You EuroTards, along with the Muslim extremists, keep bringing up the Crusades
as an excuse for their current behaviour. I don't buy it. That **** began
almost 1000 years ago, and has NO relevance to the modern day situation other
than in the minds of a minority. I would wager that most Muslims, Christians,
and Jews would rather live peacefully than in the way the Islamicists are
promoting now. The Crusades, the Inquisition, all this ancient crap, is just an
excuse to keep on hating for no reason at all. I would say the MAIN reason
"they hate USA" is because they are so rooted in the past, both through their
religion and their culture, that they refuse to view reality with the eyes of a
reasonable 21-st century brain.