ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF

In article
,
Bill C wrote:

On Jun 6, 8:42*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
"Bill C" wrote in message

...
On Jun 5, 11:57 am, hizark21 wrote:

Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
07's riders. Like I said before the ASO should have told Astana that
they have to resolve certain issues if they want to enter to the

They have. They told them "Prove it by staying clean for a year."

Think about that statement Bill. Firstly the team has very little control
over what riders do and since riders become millionaires if they succeed
they can afford to hire the best and to take chances. The past problems were
the lower tier riders were using lower tier doctors who didn't know how to
design the doping regime to clear the testings.

Now the testing protocols are getting so sensitive that most doping won't
work. That won't stop doping of course but it can limit it which is the best
we can hope to do.

I'm not willing to give the teams a free pass. There's way too much
evidence that they've known what was going on, or organized it, for
way too many of them.
Now we are back to the quality of the dopingbusts/testing. I was
going to say that the teams need to be allowed/encouraged to recover
money for the damage done, from the rider, for when a rider gets
busted, but with the way Wada, and the UCI hacve conducted themselves
in the past this is a problem too. When the folks running the system
are at least as questionable as the criminals, or supposed criminals,
what the hell do you do.
In a perfect world they'd dump most of the leadership, clean up the
system, open up the system, and start over, but that ain't gonna
happen anytime soon.
In a lot of ways this is like the NBA defending Tim Donaghy, before
he started talking his head off. They said "there's NO way he could
have affected any games because we review all the ref's performances,
in every game, and he's one of our very best!". Well, he says he was
dirty, and so are others, but noone is allowed to see what the system
is, or how it works, and anyone questioning the mighty leadership/
system is given draconian penalties.
They're dirty as ****, but rather than clean the mess up, and give up
power, they'll kill the game, and take as many people down as possible
before going.
When everyone is shoveling **** around you, you're gonna stink too,
and that's unfortunate for those who are clean.

What we have here is the Stockholm syndrome. Some agents
come in and take the sport hostage by promising to clean
it up. Now everybody has a clear cut choice. Cooperate
or be condemned as dirty. Like Pol Pot's system of rule.
Armed bands patrol the countryside. You are a villager.
Armed band shows up and starts shooting people. You do
not get shot. They hand you a gun and tell you to shoot
this person. You shoot that person or you get shot. Just
because a hostage falls in with his captors does not mean
he did not live his life dominating and running rough
shod over other people. At least the fans of the sport
have a choice to ignore doping as a moral choice and
devote that attention to the racing; but many fall in
with the captors anyway.

--
Michael Press

On Jun 7, 12:39*am, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:32:49 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
When Flandy signed phonak I made a bet with my brother
he would be caught. I was right.

What's the next team to have a major drugs scandal?

Clairvoyance is a nice skill to have for superbowl winning^^

Phonak was pretty easy considering almost all their main contenders
had been caught in the preceding years (Camenzind, Botero, Perez,
Hamilton). So it wasn't a complete stretch to fear Flandis was in
shady territory.

But I will try my hand at a Lafferism:

Teams wich are smelly:

Q-Step (Persistent rumors, Boonens own roundabout admittance)
Rabobank (Dekker went to the same doc as among others Hamilton,
further more a slightly checkered past with E. Dekker and Rasmussen)
Cofidis (too many returning cases)
Caise D'Espagne (Near misses with Valverde and Perreiro)
Astana (see their history)

I'm not a rabid witch hunter, but if teams aren't even having the
grace to be remotely embarrased about it (Ungoing cases, year in, year
out) I would like to see them brought down. Suspending riders is
easy... but the management and (medical?) staff of those teams needs
to be banned.

On Jun 7, 2:42*am, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
"Bill C" wrote in message

...
On Jun 5, 11:57 am, hizark21 wrote:

Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
07's riders. Like I said before the ASO should have told Astana that
they have to resolve certain issues if they want to enter to the

They have. They told them "Prove it by staying clean for a year."

Think about that statement Bill. Firstly the team has very little control
over what riders do and since riders become millionaires if they succeed
they can afford to hire the best and to take chances. The past problems were
the lower tier riders were using lower tier doctors who didn't know how to
design the doping regime to clear the testings.

Now the testing protocols are getting so sensitive that most doping won't
work. That won't stop doping of course but it can limit it which is the best
we can hope to do.

You dismiss out of hand the micro-dosing riders admit to use and wich
is pretty much undetectable. Also, the notion that teams, who monitor
their riders progress and live on their lips with them many days a
year, fail to see the signs is quite honestly a big stretch. Ungoing
rumors about teams pooling pricemoney/riders contributions to finance
their "medical" investments also makes the line " the team really
didn't know about Johny" on shaky grounds.

On 2008-06-05 00:14:26 +0200, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
said:

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
The randomized controls found Rasmussen didn't
they?

No.

My bad, I know that. Rasmussen was kicked out due to his phony whereabouts.
Doh.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

No.

His team was bullied to withdraw him (If Rabobank had not complied they
would not have been racing TDF or any ASO event in 2008)

The reason for ASO to wan't Rasmussen out of the race has to do with
the war against UCI and the protour concept. The Rasmussen was just a
casualty of war.

Rasmussen had: two warnings from UCI
two warnings from DCU (Danish cycling federation)

The UCI rules clearly states that there is a case if you have /3/
warnings from the same agency. ASO didn't like those rules beacuse it
was UCi rules and not ASO rules. Neither did ASO care that the warnings
where not issued on seperate incidents. There where only two incidents.

The first one from UCI was issued because Rasumussen wasn't where he
told the UCI/DCU he would be when they showed up: Instedead of
training he was racining in a UCI event. Rasmussen notified UCI of the
missing cross reference in UCI's database and assumed that the warning
was erased. It warning was not withdrawn because rasmusssens complaint
did not follow the correct procedure.

The second one was issued by DCU

The third one was issued by UCI

The fourth one was given by DCU for the same infringement as number 3
issued by UCI. When Rasmussen recived the fourth warning he was no
longer a member of the danish national team and because Rasmussen had
his license in Monaco and not in Denmark the DCU where no longer
authorised to issue a the fourth warning.

Knowladge about Rasmussens whereabouts did'nt surface until the autum
of 2007. Durring the TDF there where no evidence witch could force
Rabobank to withdraw Rasmussen or allow ASO to kick him out.

The where a lot of riders in 2007 TDF with warnings. The numbers i have
heard mentioned in the same danish TV which dug up the Mexico story
durring the TDF is +30 riders with warnings. Thore Hushovd was among
those riders - ASO did not wan't him out...

--
mvh. Morten Reippuert Knudsen

"Besides, if you can't get a decent kernal panic
or two in a month, what's the point of living?"

On 2008-06-05 17:57:58 +0200, hizark21 said:

Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
07's riders.

The problem is that the new management and top riders are just as
staind as the old ones
--
mvh. Morten Reippuert Knudsen

"Besides, if you can't get a decent kernal panic
or two in a month, what's the point of living?"

On Jun 4, 7:56*am, hizark21 wrote:
ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF (http://www.cyclingnews.com/
news.php?id=news/2008/jun08/jun04news ).

It's simply ridiculous that the ASO is refusing to let Astana enter
the TDF. *The ASO should have put forth a set of condtions for Astana
to meet if they wished to enter the TDF. Astana is the dominant spring
team now and they deserve to ride in the TDF.

I just got the latest Velo magazine, which I assume is owned by ASO.
Despite its publication following the conclusion of the Giro, only a
single minor mention of Contador. Basically, he doesn't exist, as far
as ASO is concerned.

-ilan

On Jun 7, 9:46*am, Bob Schwartz
wrote:

Cipo

As a side discussion the Cipo analogy is interesting. He is certainly
a character that folks could easily dislike. He won too much and has
excess panache. That said, excluding a sprinter who won't make it to
Paris is not the same as excluding last years winner (even if Contador
inherited the win due to the politics around Rasmussen and Rabobank).

Just as the Tour will not miss Astana.

I can see your perspective on this but don't fully agree. The tour may
not miss Astana this year but ASO will ultimately damage their
brand(s) by playing this type of politics to try and increase their
already significant influence on the sport.

It's possible, perhaps likely, that Astana staying home may actually
make for a more entertaining race. It won't be another Postal (Astana)
parade for three weeks and we should see some open racing for the
individual stages. But for the GC there is an asterisk since the best
GC riders are not competing this year.

TIOOYK

Mark

wrote in message
...

You dismiss out of hand the micro-dosing riders admit to use and wich
is pretty much undetectable.

And also pretty ineffective. Look, people have been quoting medical tests
before showing no physical results from using these drugs to which the
critics proclaim, "But they weren't using the huge doses that athletes use."
Now you're insinuating that the smaller doses work.

Also, the notion that teams, who monitor
their riders progress and live on their lips with them many days a
year, fail to see the signs is quite honestly a big stretch.

Signs of WHAT?

wrote in message
...

I just got the latest Velo magazine, which I assume is owned by ASO.
Despite its publication following the conclusion of the Giro, only a
single minor mention of Contador. Basically, he doesn't exist, as far
as ASO is concerned.

We're seeing a rather odd time in the sport right now Ilan. I've decided not
to follow the Tour this year and concentrate on the Giro and Vuelta which
has real racing.

ASO are having a serious problem with their idea that they control the
sport.

In article ,
Morten Reippuert Knudsen wrote:

On 2008-06-05 17:57:58 +0200, hizark21 said:

Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
07's riders.

The problem is that the new management and top riders are just as
staind as the old ones

But if they had hired Michael "pure as snow" Rasmussen they'd be OK,
right?

jyh.