Bike stability physics

Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:
On 7/4/2011 10:57 PM, Winston wrote:
[...]
By the time I ended my active career on two wheels, I
learned about counter-steering, which is a different
issue. It is criminal that counter-steering is not taught
to every newly - minted motorcycle rider.[...]

Push hard on the handlebar on the side you want to turn quickly too.

Not 'hard'. That would introduce one to pavement rather quickly.
Experiment first and then practice until it is completely
natural. Counter-steering can be a life-saver.

Standard training in introductory motorcycle riding class.

Yesbut, riding classes are completely optional and
largely ignored. When I sold my last motorcycle, I
demonstrated counter-steering to the new owner by
creating a series of very fast turns down the middle
of my residential street, 'way faster than I could
have done by just leaning.

It was all news to him.

--Winston

Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:

(...)

The correct answer is: Andrés Muro is trolling Trevor Jeffrey.

Oh.

--Winston

On Jul 7, 11:15*am, Winston wrote:
Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:


Push hard on the handlebar on the side you want to turn quickly too.

Not 'hard'. *That would introduce one to pavement rather quickly.
Experiment first and then practice until it is completely
natural. Counter-steering can be a life-saver.

Standard training in introductory motorcycle riding class.

Yesbut, riding classes are completely optional and
largely ignored. *When I sold my last motorcycle, I
demonstrated counter-steering to the new owner by
creating a series of very fast turns down the middle
of my residential street, 'way faster than I could
have done by just leaning.

It was all news to him.

Americans, at least, certainly seem quick to think they know as much
as anyone on any subject at all. Witness things like confident
letters to the editor on topics like economics, international
diplomacy, climate change, etc., written by people who never quite
made it through secondary school.

And on subjects that appear easy, like riding a two-wheeler? Hell,
it's _obvious_ there's nothing to learn! If you can balance, you're
an absolute expert, and nobody can teach you anything!

I've wondered if this overconfidence is connected to America's "all
men created equal" concept. Are things different in countries where
class systems are more blatant? Anybody know?

- Frank Krygowski

On Jul 7, 9:06 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jul 7, 11:15 am, Winston wrote:



Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:

Push hard on the handlebar on the side you want to turn quickly too.

Not 'hard'. That would introduce one to pavement rather quickly.
Experiment first and then practice until it is completely
natural. Counter-steering can be a life-saver.

Standard training in introductory motorcycle riding class.

Yesbut, riding classes are completely optional and
largely ignored. When I sold my last motorcycle, I
demonstrated counter-steering to the new owner by
creating a series of very fast turns down the middle
of my residential street, 'way faster than I could
have done by just leaning.

It was all news to him.

Americans, at least, certainly seem quick to think they know as much
as anyone on any subject at all. Witness things like confident
letters to the editor on topics like economics, international
diplomacy, climate change, etc., written by people who never quite
made it through secondary school.

And on subjects that appear easy, like riding a two-wheeler? Hell,
it's _obvious_ there's nothing to learn! If you can balance, you're
an absolute expert, and nobody can teach you anything!


There are many things you can't learn from a book.

I've wondered if this overconfidence is connected to America's "all
men created equal" concept. Are things different in countries where
class systems are more blatant? Anybody know?


Do you mean where people "know their place"?

On Jul 7, 8:35*pm, Dan O wrote:
On Jul 7, 9:06 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:



On Jul 7, 11:15 am, Winston wrote:

Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:

Push hard on the handlebar on the side you want to turn quickly too..

Not 'hard'. *That would introduce one to pavement rather quickly.
Experiment first and then practice until it is completely
natural. Counter-steering can be a life-saver.

Standard training in introductory motorcycle riding class.

Yesbut, riding classes are completely optional and
largely ignored. *When I sold my last motorcycle, I
demonstrated counter-steering to the new owner by
creating a series of very fast turns down the middle
of my residential street, 'way faster than I could
have done by just leaning.

It was all news to him.

Americans, at least, certainly seem quick to think they know as much
as anyone on any subject at all. *Witness things like confident
letters to the editor on topics like economics, international
diplomacy, climate change, etc., written by people who never quite
made it through secondary school.

And on subjects that appear easy, like riding a two-wheeler? *Hell,
it's _obvious_ there's nothing to learn! *If you can balance, you're
an absolute expert, and nobody can teach you anything!

There are many things you can't learn from a book.

Note that I did not specify "book."

However, non-readers greatly underestimate the number of things one
_can_ learn from a book.

- Frank Krygowski

On Jul 7, 6:09 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jul 7, 8:35 pm, Dan O wrote:



On Jul 7, 9:06 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Jul 7, 11:15 am, Winston wrote:

Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:

Push hard on the handlebar on the side you want to turn quickly too.

Not 'hard'. That would introduce one to pavement rather quickly.
Experiment first and then practice until it is completely
natural. Counter-steering can be a life-saver.

Standard training in introductory motorcycle riding class.

Yesbut, riding classes are completely optional and
largely ignored. When I sold my last motorcycle, I
demonstrated counter-steering to the new owner by
creating a series of very fast turns down the middle
of my residential street, 'way faster than I could
have done by just leaning.

It was all news to him.

Americans, at least, certainly seem quick to think they know as much
as anyone on any subject at all. Witness things like confident
letters to the editor on topics like economics, international
diplomacy, climate change, etc., written by people who never quite
made it through secondary school.

And on subjects that appear easy, like riding a two-wheeler? Hell,
it's _obvious_ there's nothing to learn! If you can balance, you're
an absolute expert, and nobody can teach you anything!

There are many things you can't learn from a book.

Note that I did not specify "book."

However, non-readers greatly underestimate the number of things one
_can_ learn from a book.


Yep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dandelion_Wine

Happy summer, my friend.

On 7/7/2011 10:15 AM, Winston wrote:
Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:
On 7/4/2011 10:57 PM, Winston wrote:
[...]
By the time I ended my active career on two wheels, I
learned about counter-steering, which is a different
issue. It is criminal that counter-steering is not taught
to every newly - minted motorcycle rider.[...]

Push hard on the handlebar on the side you want to turn quickly too.

Not 'hard'. That would introduce one to pavement rather quickly.
Experiment first and then practice until it is completely
natural. Counter-steering can be a life-saver.

Hard is a relative concept, and also depends on upper body strength,
handlebar width, weight of the motorcycle, and steering geometry.

I would push subjectively "hard" on the handlebars of my 1979 Honda
CB400 to avoid road hazards and errant motorists. Of course, the CB400
has considerably better than average handling for motorcycles of that era.

Pushing with a quarter of that force on the bars of my Earth Cycles
Sunset Lowracer would dump me almost instantly.

Standard training in introductory motorcycle riding class.

Yesbut, riding classes are completely optional and
largely ignored. When I sold my last motorcycle, I
demonstrated counter-steering to the new owner by
creating a series of very fast turns down the middle
of my residential street, 'way faster than I could
have done by just leaning.

It was all news to him.

I was in Illinois, and the MSF course was mandatory if you were under 18
and wanted to ride on the street legally.

What I wonder about is the level of control on some of the H-D choppers
I see, with the super-slack fork angle and ape-hanger bars above face
height.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:

(...)

I was in Illinois, and the MSF course was mandatory if you were under 18
and wanted to ride on the street legally.

It was *much* simpler in California ca. 1970
A very simple maneuver demonstration and a simple
multiple-guess exam. I would hear the term 'counter-
steering' for the first time, 24 years later.

What I wonder about is the level of control on some of the H-D choppers
I see, with the super-slack fork angle and ape-hanger bars above face
height.

Darwin in the wind!

--Winston

On 7/7/2011 12:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jul 7, 11:15 am, wrote:
Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:


Push hard on the handlebar on the side you want to turn quickly too.

Not 'hard'. That would introduce one to pavement rather quickly.
Experiment first and then practice until it is completely
natural. Counter-steering can be a life-saver.

Standard training in introductory motorcycle riding class.

Yesbut, riding classes are completely optional and
largely ignored. When I sold my last motorcycle, I
demonstrated counter-steering to the new owner by
creating a series of very fast turns down the middle
of my residential street, 'way faster than I could
have done by just leaning.

It was all news to him.

Americans, at least, certainly seem quick to think they know as much
as anyone on any subject at all. Witness things like confident
letters to the editor on topics like economics, international
diplomacy, climate change, etc., written by people who never quite
made it through secondary school.

And on subjects that appear easy, like riding a two-wheeler? Hell,
it's _obvious_ there's nothing to learn! If you can balance, you're
an absolute expert, and nobody can teach you anything!

I've wondered if this overconfidence is connected to America's "all
men created equal" concept. Are things different in countries where
class systems are more blatant? Anybody know?

Jobst used to hypothesize that the biomechanics of counter-steering a
bicycle was similar enough to running that it was a "hard-wired" skill.
The learning curve is nearly instantaneous because we're just
cross-wiring into a skill we're born with. I think all cyclists
counter-steer, most without knowing it. It's not lectures that help, but
practice. People just don't get much exposure to the need to swerve
suddenly, but it's quite natural, nothing counter-intuitive about it.
It's just a matter of conditioning the reflexes. Mountain biking does
this pretty quickly.

On 7/7/2011 9:43 PM, Dan O wrote:
On Jul 7, 6:09 pm, Frank wrote:
On Jul 7, 8:35 pm, Dan wrote:



On Jul 7, 9:06 am, Frank wrote:

On Jul 7, 11:15 am, wrote:

Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:

Push hard on the handlebar on the side you want to turn quickly too.

Not 'hard'. That would introduce one to pavement rather quickly.
Experiment first and then practice until it is completely
natural. Counter-steering can be a life-saver.

Standard training in introductory motorcycle riding class.

Yesbut, riding classes are completely optional and
largely ignored. When I sold my last motorcycle, I
demonstrated counter-steering to the new owner by
creating a series of very fast turns down the middle
of my residential street, 'way faster than I could
have done by just leaning.

It was all news to him.

Americans, at least, certainly seem quick to think they know as much
as anyone on any subject at all. Witness things like confident
letters to the editor on topics like economics, international
diplomacy, climate change, etc., written by people who never quite
made it through secondary school.

And on subjects that appear easy, like riding a two-wheeler? Hell,
it's _obvious_ there's nothing to learn! If you can balance, you're
an absolute expert, and nobody can teach you anything!

There are many things you can't learn from a book.

Note that I did not specify "book."

However, non-readers greatly underestimate the number of things one
_can_ learn from a book.


Yep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dandelion_Wine

Happy summer, my friend.

Bradbury is good but
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse-Five
poo tee weet