A real reason for gravel bikes?

On 2/19/2020 11:39 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 8:44:43 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 7:44:15 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:30:57 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:47:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel� if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

As I've stated, I ride and drive on U.S. highways, state highways, on, county roads, on township roads, on city and village streets. All
have different financing systems. I think most get funds from a mix
of sources; for example, local projects often get some state or
federal help.

One problem that's upcoming is the expected drop in gasoline sales
due to electric and hybrid cars. I know a person who recently bought
an electric car, and was surprised to find the licensing fees are
much higher than a gas car, supposedly to help make up that deficit.

I may need to change my attitude, and write thank you notes to the
dudes who buy huge pickup trucks.

- Frank Krygowski

Frank - eight and then six years ago the taxpayers in California passes a 12 cent gas tax increase.. This makes a total of about 45 cents of so. California fuel use is way down - only about 5 million gallons a month for gasoline alone. They also tax diesel more and they even have aviation fuel taxes.

With a yearly income of something like $27 Million you'd expect to see SOME road repairs. The main street in Oakland - Broadway - was literally gravel before they refinished it. Other than that the only other repairs I'd seen is the re-paving of a street in the rich part of town that didn't need it.

They are patching roads here and there by pouring hot tar into the largest cracks. Now large parts of Northern California also want to become part of Greater Idaho.

WTF? Large parts of Northern California are idiots. Look at a map. How about they want to become part of Greater Nevada . . . or Oregon.

BTW, large parts of I-84 in Idaho drive like chipseal, and there are some nasty concrete sections. Taxes are low, and you get what you pay for. https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/lo...2-6b28798fe1b2 IMO, Oregon and Utah have better roads.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...ehP?li=BBnb7Kz


What else is new? Several States have secession movements
(none of which, I predict, will be fruitful.):

https://soj51.org/

https://www.newstarget.com/2020-01-1...-virginia.html

Even parts of West Consin (way up nort' beyond civilization
above Hwy 8) would rather be Youpers.

p.s. Not always 'We Shall Be Free'. Sometimes it's more
"Hey You- Just Go Away":

https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifes...7ya-story.html

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/19/2020 11:59 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 9:20:08 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/19/2020 9:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:30:57 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:47:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel†if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

As I've stated, I ride and drive on U.S. highways, state highways, on, county roads, on township roads, on city and village streets. All
have different financing systems. I think most get funds from a mix
of sources; for example, local projects often get some state or
federal help.

One problem that's upcoming is the expected drop in gasoline sales
due to electric and hybrid cars. I know a person who recently bought
an electric car, and was surprised to find the licensing fees are
much higher than a gas car, supposedly to help make up that deficit.

I may need to change my attitude, and write thank you notes to the
dudes who buy huge pickup trucks.

- Frank Krygowski

Frank - eight and then six years ago the taxpayers in California passes a 12 cent gas tax increase.. This makes a total of about 45 cents of so. California fuel use is way down - only about 5 million gallons a month for gasoline alone. They also tax diesel more and they even have aviation fuel taxes.

With a yearly income of something like $27 Million you'd expect to see SOME road repairs. The main street in Oakland - Broadway - was literally gravel before they refinished it. Other than that the only other repairs I'd seen is the re-paving of a street in the rich part of town that didn't need it.

They are patching roads here and there by pouring hot tar into the largest cracks. Now large parts of Northern California also want to become part of Greater Idaho.

It's pretty simple - put a liberal in charge of a penny and he will break it.


I'm not saying the contractors or the politicians are honest
or well meaning, but it actually is complex. When fully
rebuilding a city street/avenue, the project usually starts
with a 15~20 foot trench to replace water/sewer/gas pipes.
(as with the 100-year old gas line explosion with multiple
fatalities near you. And every city loses significant water
and sewer to chronic leaks) Commonly now, the project also
includes electricity/fiber with underground vaults plus
traffic signal/streetlight connections. Each item has its
own details, foibles, budget, engineers, crews, equipment
and schedule. And all of it moves at a snail's pace with
multiple 'impact studies' (often used as leverage for
kickbacks).

'Simple' is the only word which does not apply here.

p.s. $27 million? I laugh at your pathetic number. That's
barely enough to buy a few county board votes. CalTrans
says their annual road budget is $4.5 billion (plus the
****holes of trains, bicycle paths and so on)

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Well, I suppose they did replace a 3 block section of road adjacent to my home. This was a truck route since there are several trucking forms within a half mile of my home. I noticed them doing this when the trucks, instead of going the opposite way on an industrial route, came directly through the NO TRUCKS sign and though out neighborhood breaking the asphalt up and turning at least one road into nearly gravel. This was entirely unnecessary and the police could have easily stopped it. But they don't.

The town of Moraga has three exits. One goes up a very crooked road in the Redwoods, another past St. Mary's College and a third towards the town of Orinda and the Freeway. The road to Orinda opened a HUGE sinkhole that shut that road down. The intelligent thing for Trucks to do would be to go down past St. Mary's and connect with the Freeways in that manner. Instead they went over the road into the Redwoods. This broke down the bridge over a small creek. This was five years ago and the temporary bridge is still there and trucks are STILL crossing that "MAX LOAD 5 TONES" bridge with 10 ton trucks. The road on the other side is pushed into the group in places and broken up in others. Again, all it would have taken is a cop stationed there to prevent all of this damage but no such thing. The TRAFFIC fines in this area could have paid for all of the repair work and still they do not do a thing. I don't understand what the hell is going on in the city fathers' minds. In the meantime t
he road up through the Redwoods is crumbling and soon will no longer be a possible escape route in case of earthquake, fire or flood (the town is 10 or more feet below an adjoining reservoir. Pinehurst Rd. through the Redwoods is the only elevated escape route.

Plainly the thought processes of the average government is far below that of the normal bicyclist. Even those who think that faster is better. I even had a guy pass me in the opposite direction while I was on an 8% climb yesterday shout "Hi Al". I returned his greeting and tried my hardest to look like an Al.


Traffic fines? Assume 500 fines actually get paid in full at
$500 (highly improbable). You can't to an environmental
study for a bridge with that sort of chump change and it's
certainly not enough to build one nowadays..

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 9:29:26 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2020 9:44 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 7:27:28 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:29:23 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:


And then there are bridges. I go over this one to see my brother. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSTcKLJ5gw From above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmnC05Ou7w It's scary narrow, and its scheduled to be replaced as soon as the bridge toll piggy bank is full.

Looks like a normal two lane bridge built for trucks and automobiles,
one lane each way. What more could one want?

Well, I could want lanes that were not scaled for Model Ts and could do without a metal deck that steers the car (particularly with the usual high wind), and I could want a bridge that allows bicycles, but apart from that, nothing.

Speaking of metal decks: There's a suspension bridge over the Ohio River
that I used to use for a ride I led - a toll bridge, 5 cents per bike.
(I very generously paid for everyone on the ride.)

https://bridgehunter.com/wv/hancock/newell/

The open steel deck gave a nice view of the water maybe 50 feet below.
It gave me a feeling of flying. Looking down as I rode, the height
wasn't really apparent until I got to the support towers, or to the
banks on the north. Those provided a sense of scale and a little shiver
of excitement.

One or two of my friends found riding it too scary. They used the
sidewalk instead.

That's like the bridge west of the one in Hood River -- the Bridge of the Gods (Cascade Locks), which is a popular bike route. Go to 1:11. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuO8KtOnVmk&t=31s 140 foot drop to the water. You really have to relax your shoulders or the grating will steer you around. The railing is hip-high on a bike too, and the winds can be fierce. Here's a better view at 3:10. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBs3SzOfRLU&t=431s I hate heights and get mild acrophobia looking down through the grating -- so I don't, usually.

The Bridge of the Gods loop from PDX is a spectacular ride -- and no riding on I-84 with all the new bicycle infrastructure. http://columbiariverimages.com/Image...e_06-09-14.jpg (your tax dollars at work!). I really can't imagine a more beautiful place to ride that can be done as an out-and-back from home. Washington side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj_r2knnAj8 and the Oregon return: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLUcbgpVIpw Of course, I'm cutting out the march through east county ****holia, but even a lot of that is now on the Springwater Corridor/Fairview Trail.

-- Jay Beattie.

Frank Krygowski writes:

On 2/19/2020 9:44 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 7:27:28 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:29:23 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:


And then there are bridges. I go over this one to see my
brother. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSTcKLJ5gw From above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmnC05Ou7w It's scary narrow, and
its scheduled to be replaced as soon as the bridge toll piggy bank
is full.

Looks like a normal two lane bridge built for trucks and automobiles,
one lane each way. What more could one want?

Well, I could want lanes that were not scaled for Model Ts and could
do without a metal deck that steers the car (particularly with the
usual high wind), and I could want a bridge that allows bicycles,
but apart from that, nothing.

Speaking of metal decks: There's a suspension bridge over the Ohio
River that I used to use for a ride I led - a toll bridge, 5 cents per
bike. (I very generously paid for everyone on the ride.)

https://bridgehunter.com/wv/hancock/newell/

The open steel deck gave a nice view of the water maybe 50 feet
below. It gave me a feeling of flying. Looking down as I rode, the
height wasn't really apparent until I got to the support towers, or to
the banks on the north. Those provided a sense of scale and a little
shiver of excitement.

One or two of my friends found riding it too scary. They used the
sidewalk instead.

I used to ride over two metal decked bridges fairly often; one has now
been demolished and the other is closed for renovation. My experience
was that they were rideable but unpleasant, because the deck tends to
steer for you. Maybe that's just well worn decks, I have probably never
encountered a nice new one.

When wet they were treacherous.

--

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 10:08:15 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/19/2020 11:39 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 8:44:43 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 7:44:15 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:30:57 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:47:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel†if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

As I've stated, I ride and drive on U.S. highways, state highways, on, county roads, on township roads, on city and village streets. All
have different financing systems. I think most get funds from a mix
of sources; for example, local projects often get some state or
federal help.

One problem that's upcoming is the expected drop in gasoline sales
due to electric and hybrid cars. I know a person who recently bought
an electric car, and was surprised to find the licensing fees are
much higher than a gas car, supposedly to help make up that deficit.

I may need to change my attitude, and write thank you notes to the
dudes who buy huge pickup trucks.

- Frank Krygowski

Frank - eight and then six years ago the taxpayers in California passes a 12 cent gas tax increase.. This makes a total of about 45 cents of so. California fuel use is way down - only about 5 million gallons a month for gasoline alone. They also tax diesel more and they even have aviation fuel taxes.

With a yearly income of something like $27 Million you'd expect to see SOME road repairs. The main street in Oakland - Broadway - was literally gravel before they refinished it. Other than that the only other repairs I'd seen is the re-paving of a street in the rich part of town that didn't need it.

They are patching roads here and there by pouring hot tar into the largest cracks. Now large parts of Northern California also want to become part of Greater Idaho.

WTF? Large parts of Northern California are idiots. Look at a map. How about they want to become part of Greater Nevada . . . or Oregon.

BTW, large parts of I-84 in Idaho drive like chipseal, and there are some nasty concrete sections. Taxes are low, and you get what you pay for. https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/lo...2-6b28798fe1b2 IMO, Oregon and Utah have better roads.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...ehP?li=BBnb7Kz


What else is new? Several States have secession movements
(none of which, I predict, will be fruitful.):

https://soj51.org/

https://www.newstarget.com/2020-01-1...-virginia.html

Even parts of West Consin (way up nort' beyond civilization
above Hwy 8) would rather be Youpers.

p.s. Not always 'We Shall Be Free'. Sometimes it's more
"Hey You- Just Go Away":

https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifes...7ya-story.html

81 percent of all state revenue in Oregon is generated west of the Cascades.. We support the break-away counties of greater Idaho. They couldn't pay for their own schools, which are unbelievably expensive, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crane_Union_High_School A public boarding school. Your tax dollars at work. The population of Harney county is 7,300 (there are 14X more cows than people). Schools are funded through the state general fund with some local levies. Imagine what they would pay in local taxes if they had to foot the bill for that one school alone. They're already going broke providing county services. https://www.opb.org/news/article/har...services-cuts/ The folks of Idaho wouldn't want these broke, break-away counties. What a financial mess.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2/19/2020 2:07 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 10:08:15 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/19/2020 11:39 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 8:44:43 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 7:44:15 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:30:57 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:47:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel†if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

As I've stated, I ride and drive on U.S. highways, state highways, on, county roads, on township roads, on city and village streets. All
have different financing systems. I think most get funds from a mix
of sources; for example, local projects often get some state or
federal help.

One problem that's upcoming is the expected drop in gasoline sales
due to electric and hybrid cars. I know a person who recently bought
an electric car, and was surprised to find the licensing fees are
much higher than a gas car, supposedly to help make up that deficit.

I may need to change my attitude, and write thank you notes to the
dudes who buy huge pickup trucks.

- Frank Krygowski

Frank - eight and then six years ago the taxpayers in California passes a 12 cent gas tax increase.. This makes a total of about 45 cents of so. California fuel use is way down - only about 5 million gallons a month for gasoline alone. They also tax diesel more and they even have aviation fuel taxes.

With a yearly income of something like $27 Million you'd expect to see SOME road repairs. The main street in Oakland - Broadway - was literally gravel before they refinished it. Other than that the only other repairs I'd seen is the re-paving of a street in the rich part of town that didn't need it.

They are patching roads here and there by pouring hot tar into the largest cracks. Now large parts of Northern California also want to become part of Greater Idaho.

WTF? Large parts of Northern California are idiots. Look at a map. How about they want to become part of Greater Nevada . . . or Oregon.

BTW, large parts of I-84 in Idaho drive like chipseal, and there are some nasty concrete sections. Taxes are low, and you get what you pay for. https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/lo...2-6b28798fe1b2 IMO, Oregon and Utah have better roads.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...ehP?li=BBnb7Kz


What else is new? Several States have secession movements
(none of which, I predict, will be fruitful.):

https://soj51.org/

https://www.newstarget.com/2020-01-1...-virginia.html

Even parts of West Consin (way up nort' beyond civilization
above Hwy 8) would rather be Youpers.

p.s. Not always 'We Shall Be Free'. Sometimes it's more
"Hey You- Just Go Away":

https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifes...7ya-story.html

81 percent of all state revenue in Oregon is generated west of the Cascades. We support the break-away counties of greater Idaho. They couldn't pay for their own schools, which are unbelievably expensive, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crane_Union_High_School A public boarding school. Your tax dollars at work. The population of Harney county is 7,300 (there are 14X more cows than people). Schools are funded through the state general fund with some local levies. Imagine what they would pay in local taxes if they had to foot the bill for that one school alone. They're already going broke providing county services. https://www.opb.org/news/article/har...services-cuts/ The folks of Idaho wouldn't want these broke, break-away counties. What a financial mess.

-- Jay Beattie.





Not disputing what you wrote but it's an excellent example
of complexity in public policy. It reads like dystopian
science fiction from a hack writer.

35 years ago the Oregon logging industry[1] was publicly
drawn and quartered in favor of the ****ant unremarkable
spotted owl. Part of that program included Federal payments
to Oregon counties to offset their lost revenue. How
successful was that? The payment stream expired (as you
noted above) and Interior Department sharpshooters are
paid[2] to remove the Barred owl which has taken over the
area from the feckless doomed to deserved extinction spotted
owl. Now we add to the damned spotted owl's many victims
cycling taxpayers in Portland.

[1]Efficient major source of US lumber from trees ready to
harvest, which otherwise die and rot. And a former major
export, employer, taxpayer.

[2]No, not DJT. That's a BHO program.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:56:38 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 15:23:30 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:41:10 PM UTC-6, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 1:22:44 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:12:43 UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:36:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel� if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


I can't complain about the condition of our country roads. They are well maintained compared to Germany and Belgium were I ride also frequently especially Germany. The roads in Belgium are awful. There are no borders anymore but as soon as you cross the invisible Belgium border you now immidiately you are in Belgium. Your fillings are rattling out of your teeth.

Lou
--
- Frank Krygowski

That's exactly what Duane says about riding from Quebec to Ontario Canada.

Cheers

This is interesting. Why do you suppose they went from very good roads during the Presidency of Eisenhower to the slow degradation of roads since?


????? Eisenhower was in office about 70 years ago. He started the national Interstate road system. Based upon the road network he observed in Germany during World War 2. In the 1950s there was not two cars for every single human being. There was not as many roads. The car culture had not become the meaning of the USA yet. There were also less people. Now there are 330 million people in the USA. People who consume stuff. People who buy stuff. People who need stores to sell them stuff. Stores that need roads to haul all the stuff to the store. Stores that need heavy semi trucks to haul the stuff. Heavy semis that destroy the roads. 70 years of heavy trucks on roads destroy the roads and eventually they need to be replaced. How many cars built during Eisenhower's reign do you see being driven today? None. They all wore out. And the roads have to be replaced too.

But yet roads built in the days of the Roman empire are still in use
today albeit with another layer of surfacing although I believe that
there are sections of the Via Appia and possibly the Via Aurelia
where the original paving is still used.

To be a bit pedantic a semi truck don't necessarily destroy roads, it
is the tire loading is the determining factor and it is quite possible
for a small, heavily loaded, truck to have a higher tire loading and
thus do more damage to a road than a large truck, with more wheels and
wider tires and thus having a lighter tire loading.,

I once did a study of wheel loading and potential road damage for the
Indonesian National Highway Department demonstrating that 50 ton
Oilfield trucks actually caused less damage to the highway than the
small, grossly overloaded, 3 ton trucks commonly used by small
freight companies.
--
cheers,

John B.

True, it is the pounds per square inch that is the decider. But big trucks, or the small freight trucks you describe, or gravel dump trucks, have the highest pounds per square inch. And do all the damage to roads. In the USA 80,000 pounds is the maximum weight of an 18 wheel semi truck. That is 4,444 pounds per tire. A Toyota Camry weighs 3500 pounds. Or 875 pounds per tire. For these two vehicles to be equal for weight per square inch on the road, the semi tire would have to be 5 TIMES more surface area touching the road. I have looked at tires on semi trucks and Camrys. The semi tire does not have 5 times more surface area. Semi tire has about 2 or 3 times more surface area.

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 5:57:06 PM UTC-6, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 1:41:10 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 1:22:44 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:12:43 UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:36:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel� if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


I can't complain about the condition of our country roads. They are well maintained compared to Germany and Belgium were I ride also frequently especially Germany. The roads in Belgium are awful. There are no borders anymore but as soon as you cross the invisible Belgium border you now immidiately you are in Belgium. Your fillings are rattling out of your teeth.

Lou
--
- Frank Krygowski

That's exactly what Duane says about riding from Quebec to Ontario Canada.

Cheers

This is interesting. Why do you suppose they went from very good roads during the Presidency of Eisenhower to the slow degradation of roads since? They are continually asking for additional taxes for road repairs. People, sick of the poor roads comply and pass these taxes and nothing seems to ever come of them. I noted road repairs after the last gas tax increase - in one rich neighborhood that had good roads to begin with.

Eisenhower was the interstate system and not county roads, but existing roads were better 60 years ago -- in large part because they were 60 years newer.

-- Jay Beattie.

I suspect after Ike built the federal interstate system, and all the hicks in the states drove on these new roads, they went and talked/threatened to their governor, county commissioner, mayor. And said, "You A-hole, you build us roads as nice as Ike's roads, or I'll take a bat to your head." And being politicians spending other people's money, they said "YES". And we have 100 times more miles of roads now than when Ike was around. And yes they are all a lot older than they were when Ike was around in the 1950s. And there are a lot more of them to maintain.

On 2/19/2020 12:59 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:


Well, I suppose they did replace a 3 block section of road adjacent to my home. This was a truck route since there are several trucking forms within a half mile of my home. I noticed them doing this when the trucks, instead of going the opposite way on an industrial route, came directly through the NO TRUCKS sign and though out neighborhood breaking the asphalt up and turning at least one road into nearly gravel. This was entirely unnecessary and the police could have easily stopped it. But they don't.

The town of Moraga has three exits. One goes up a very crooked road in the Redwoods, another past St. Mary's College and a third towards the town of Orinda and the Freeway. The road to Orinda opened a HUGE sinkhole that shut that road down. The intelligent thing for Trucks to do would be to go down past St. Mary's and connect with the Freeways in that manner. Instead they went over the road into the Redwoods. This broke down the bridge over a small creek. This was five years ago and the temporary bridge is still there and trucks are STILL crossing that "MAX LOAD 5 TONES" bridge with 10 ton trucks. The road on the other side is pushed into the group in places and broken up in others. Again, all it would have taken is a cop stationed there to prevent all of this damage but no such thing.

Our village is at the intersection of a U.S. route plus two state
routes, and so sees a lot of truck traffic. Years ago, the village
police got training on spotting overweight trucks (I guess the tire
deflection helps as a clue) and purchased a portable scale. For a long
time afterward, the local police report told of tickets for excessive
loads. I haven't heard much about that lately, probably because the
truckers have learned to behave.

Tom, you need to move out of that hell hole.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/19/2020 2:57 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:

I used to ride over two metal decked bridges fairly often; one has now
been demolished and the other is closed for renovation. My experience
was that they were rideable but unpleasant, because the deck tends to
steer for you. Maybe that's just well worn decks, I have probably never
encountered a nice new one.

When wet they were treacherous.

Bike touring with my wife and daughter in the Appalachians, we came
across a bridge like that without warning at the bottom of a steep
curving downhill. It was a bit wet, and my daughter's bike started to
slide, but she regained traction. There was a lot of luck involved, I'm
sure.

--
- Frank Krygowski