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#21
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TK was exactly right. OT
On Jun 21, 8:17*am, Bill C wrote:
Nah, I want to give a Bill Engvall "Here's your sign." to all the folks who argued he was an idiot for even suggesting it might be a problem.p of that. snipped *Bill C- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Wanted to exclude Howard from that group though. What TK gets back from him is what he's asked for. Just the fact that Howard "is" seems to send Tom off the deep end. Bill C |
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#22
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TK was exactly right. OT
On Jun 21, 8:17 am, Bill C wrote:
Nah, I want to give a Bill Engvall "Here's your sign." to all the folks who argued he was an idiot for even suggesting it might be a problem. It's pretty rare when TK is right on the money, but he could point out that the road we're riding on is basically black, and usually rational folks would line up to say he's wrong. So, in a nutshell, what you're saying is that TK cries wolf a lot, and then when there's an actual wolf he gets the same ****? Wow - never could have imagined that happening! I was in the "We'll have to see camp, I'm not sure." because historically the problem has not been a lack of food, it's been one of distribution, transport, and politics. I'm still not sure that ethanol is sucking off enough of the excess production (Our govt. is still paying folks to NOT grow crops) to cause a disaster. I'd guess a much bigger problem is the cost spikes due to the cost of oil. Modern farming, and transport, is incredibly dependent on petroleum and it's price. It's easier to go after biofuels than the folks producing the oil, and the huge national taxes most places that are on top of that. If I haven't mentioned it already, and even if I did, you should read The Omnivore's Dilemma by Pollan. He covers food chains and the real costs of industrial, organic and local foods. Excellent reading. R |
#23
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Howard Kveck was exactly right. OT
On Jun 20, 3:03*pm, ST wrote:
On 6/19/08 9:47 AM, in article , "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote: "RicodJour" wrote in message .... | On Jun 19, 9:36 am, Bill C wrote: | While just about everyone lined up and relentlessly hammered on him, | with just a few allowing they had some doubt, he was the one who was | right on the money. | *Hope he doesn't hold his breathe waiting for folks to admit being | mistaken, since I happen to like having him around. | | http://tinyurl.com/6mnu2p | | New study to force ministers to review climate change planExclusive | Official review admits biofuel role in food crisis | Julian Borger and John Vidal The Guardian, Thursday June 19 2008 | Article historyBritain and Europe will be forced to fundamentally | rethink a central part of their environment strategy after a | government report found that the rush to develop biofuels has played a | "significant" role in the dramatic rise in global food prices, which | has left 100 million more people without enough to eat. | | That biofuels are a two-edged sword was never disputed. *Tom way | saying that the whole global warming thing is a myth and that human | activity has no effect on the planet's climate. *So I'm not sure why | you're awarding the medal... | | R Agreed. Biofuels, when not derived from waste product, are an abomination and an insult to humanity. The idea that it's more important to feed our cars than our mouths... what could be more absurd? And not only do the economics not work out, but it's tough to show that you're actually gaining energy too, after you factor in everything that goes into growing crops.. But as you say, what does this have to do with awarding points to TK? His attitude is simply that global warming itself is a myth. The only reason he'd care about biofuels is if it puts cheaper gas into his tank. Not that there's anything wrong with that concept, to a point. --Mike-- * * Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com You guys are so full of crap and yourselves! HE SAID... (and I agreed) "This biofuels **** is gonna take all the corn the USA gives to feed the worlds hungry and they are gonna starve!!!" He MAY have said something LIKE THAT, but he didn't say THAT. Don't put something in quotes unless it's truly a quote. On the other hand, a cursory search turns up a different poster who was "exactly right": "Discussion subject changed to "Nascar considering starving the world" by Howard Kveck" That was a post about NASCAR considering a switch to ethanol. -Paul |
#24
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TK was exactly right. OT
On Jun 21, 5:17*am, Bill C wrote:
On Jun 19, 2:42*pm, Kurgan Gringioni wrote: On Jun 19, 10:23*am, Bill C wrote: On Jun 19, 9:47*am, RicodJour wrote: That biofuels are a two-edged sword was never disputed. *Tom way saying that the whole global warming thing is a myth and that human activity has no effect on the planet's climate. *So I'm not sure why you're awarding the medal... R- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The biofuels, and their effect on food production were a seperate discussion. snip Dumbass - You want to give that moron a medal for that conclusion? thanks, K. Gringioni. Nah, I want to give a Bill Engvall "Here's your sign." to all the folks who argued he was an idiot for even suggesting it might be a problem. Then you can use the google archives to find out where somebody said that. TK said that Liberals want to fix global warming by mass genocide. It turned out he meant biofuels (I think). I don't think there are any liberal greenies who seriously advocate biofuels as a cure for global warming. There are reasons to advocate limited use of biodiesel and so on, but it's not gonna affect global warming very much, and it's not the same thing as corn-based ethanol making the farm lobby rich and driving up the price of food. If you want to give TK credit for knocking down strawmen, that's fine, but if you want to flip off people who argued with him, be prepared to show examples of them saying what you're criticizing. Ben |
#25
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TK was exactly right. OT
On Jun 21, 7:03*pm, "
wrote: If you want to give TK credit for knocking down strawmen, that's fine, but if you want to flip off people who argued with him, be prepared to show examples of them saying what you're criticizing. Ben- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I'm too lazy to do that for what was intended as a troll. It's there though. You look it up. I'm tempted to, just to make the point, yet again, that a ****load of folks here would be ice skating on hell before they'd admit to having been wrong, or mistaken. You're making the argument that progressives and environmentalists haven't called for alternative energy/fuels?? Bill C |
#26
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TK was exactly right. OT
In article ,
Bill C wrote: On Jun 21, 7:03*pm, " wrote: If you want to give TK credit for knocking down strawmen, that's fine, but if you want to flip off people who argued with him, be prepared to show examples of them saying what you're criticizing. Ben- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I'm too lazy to do that for what was intended as a troll. It's there though. You look it up. I'm tempted to, just to make the point, yet again, that a ****load of folks here would be ice skating on hell before they'd admit to having been wrong, or mistaken. Then make the point, Bill. Why should Ben be expected to go find things to prove *your* statement that everyone treated Kunich like an idiot for saying that the trend toward use of biofuel had drawbacks. The main reason that is a nonstarter as an argument is that Kunich didn't actually say anything like that. Ben is corrrect to point out that he (TK) was raving about how biofuel stuff was going to cause mass genocide and liberals/progressives didn't care. In other words, Kunich was being his usual hysterical self. You know, if he'd said, "I think that the redirection of corn and soy to the biofuel industry might have consequences for less priviliged people in the Third World" he would have gotten little disagreement. But he had to go into full-on drama queen mode and say things like, "There you have it as I was predicting. Guilt ridden middle class white men are planning on starving the world in order to pretend that they're going to fight world use of oil and global warming." Oh, and that was a mild one for him. Anyway, as for the biofuel/food isue: One point is that in Asia, the price of rice is skyrocketing due to a limited supply (for example, drought has destroyed Australia's rice industry, leading to the closure of the largest rice mill in the Southern Hemisphere). This is *not* due to anything to do with biofuels. Rice does not convert into biofuel, although the ricestraw has shown possibilities (and ricestraw is a leftover from the harvest). Additionally, the land that rice is grown on is very rarely converted into use by other crops, as it's unsuitable for such things as corn (or pretty much anything but rice). Another point is that the price of corn in Mexico and South America has been going up for several years. This isn't due to them converting over to the use of corn as a biofuel, as it started happening at least five or six years ago and there was no corn/biofuel industry there then (and not much now). Brazil uses sugar cane for its biofuel ethanol. There are certainly a number of liberals/progressives calling for greater use of biofuel but the driving force is companies like ADM. They get huge subsidies for growing corn for biofuel. The subsidies they got for simply growing corn is one reason why corn producers in Africa are out of business: food aid does not show up as dollars, to be spent were the receiving country chooses (like buying from local sources). It invariably is set up to show up as a comodity, sourced from here. And that means subsidised ADM corn. You're making the argument that progressives and environmentalists haven't called for alternative energy/fuels?? No, he's not. Strawman. Oh, and furthermore, people don't criticise TK for saying the road is basically black, they do so for the way he says it. He earns the abuse he gets by being an overbearing asshole more often than not. He squawks that people in here act like they know more than experts in any subject, yet he is guilty of that more than everyone combined. Christ, Bill, you've been on the receiving end of that ****. He continues to perpetuate false arguments (like the ICC report was modified to reflect the conclusions of the summary that was written before the report) even though he has been corrected on them multiple times. The way he alwasy seems to have worked at some place or on some thing that is relevent to a discussion, which implies *his* expertise is more valuable than the rest of the "idiots" (as he sees us, "us" being everyone but Tom) in here is absolutely laughable. He claims, for example, to have an engineering degree from the USAF but he thinks there are "pockets" in the air where airplane wings don't have lift. Ha! I could go on, but why bother? -- tanx, Howard The bloody pubs are bloody dull The bloody clubs are bloody full Of bloody girls and bloody guys With bloody murder in their eyes remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok? |
#27
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TK was exactly right. OT
On Jun 21, 4:03*pm, "
wrote: On Jun 21, 5:17*am, Bill C wrote: On Jun 19, 2:42*pm, Kurgan Gringioni wrote: On Jun 19, 10:23*am, Bill C wrote: On Jun 19, 9:47*am, RicodJour wrote: That biofuels are a two-edged sword was never disputed. *Tom way saying that the whole global warming thing is a myth and that human activity has no effect on the planet's climate. *So I'm not sure why you're awarding the medal... R- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The biofuels, and their effect on food production were a seperate discussion. snip Dumbass - You want to give that moron a medal for that conclusion? thanks, K. Gringioni. Nah, I want to give a Bill Engvall "Here's your sign." to all the folks who argued he was an idiot for even suggesting it might be a problem. Then you can use the google archives to find out where somebody said that. TK said that Liberals want to fix global warming by mass genocide. *It turned out he meant biofuels (I think). I don't think there are any liberal greenies who seriously advocate biofuels as a cure for global warming. snip Dumbass - Biofuels are potentially a solution. The problem is the solution isn't any that the government is spending $$$ on (like the corn based ethanol). If they manage to get the enzyme going that'll convert the cellulose products into ethanol, that'll be a help. The biggest thing is what Craig Venter is working on: genetically engineering bacteria so that they convert CO2 and sunlight into hydrocarbons. It sounds a bit science-fiction-ish until one considers that fossil fuels themselves are a form of biofuel. Oil started out as dead phytoplankton on the bottom of an anaerobic ocean. Eventually the problem is going to be solved. There will be some backwards looking oil companies that won't like it. thanks, K. Gringioni. |
#28
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TK was exactly right. OT
On Jun 21, 7:08*pm, Howard Kveck wrote:
He claims, for example, to have an engineering degree from the USAF Dumbass - That's his engineering degree?! omg. hahahahahahahahahaha! Jesus. thanks, K. Gringioni. |
#29
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TK was exactly right. OT weaseling Mea Culpa
On Jun 21, 10:08*pm, Howard Kveck wrote:
I *You're making the argument that progressives and environmentalists haven't called for alternative energy/fuels?? * *No, he's not. Strawman. Yes it was meant to be, it's a twist to the argument, like branching it off into TK's genocide rant. * *Oh, and furthermore, people don't criticise TK for saying the road is basically black, they do so for the way he says it. He earns the abuse he gets by being an overbearing asshole more often than not. He squawks that people in here act like they know more than experts in any subject, yet he is guilty of that more than everyone combined. Christ, Bill, you've been on the receiving end of that ****. He continues to perpetuate false arguments (like the ICC report was modified to reflect the conclusions of the summary that was written before the report) even though he has been corrected on them multiple times. The way he alwasy seems to have worked at some place or on some thing that is relevent to a discussion, which implies *his* expertise is more valuable than the rest of the "idiots" (as he sees us, "us" being everyone but Tom) in here is absolutely laughable. He claims, for example, to have an engineering degree from the USAF but he thinks there are "pockets" in the air where airplane wings don't have lift. Ha! I could go on, but why bother? -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * tanx, * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Howard * * * * * * * * * *The bloody pubs are bloody dull * * * * * * * * * *The bloody clubs are bloody full * * * * * * * * * *Of bloody girls and bloody guys * * * * * * * * * *With bloody murder in their eyes * * * * * * * * * * *remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - TK's point was that biofuels are bad for the world's food supply. I wasn't sure about that then, and still am not sure about it, but lots of supposedly credible people are agreeing with him on that point. That's almost always the point with TK. There's a solid kernel of information there, then it explodes into something else, which it did here, but that doesn't invalidate his original point. More research may do that. Going back through and rereading everything, it's my memory that's faulty in detail. You and Ben are much closer to accurate. The attacks were on him, his sources, etc...not directly at the actual argument. Thanks for the civil slap upside the head, and forcing me to go get it right. I did get something great out of it, other than the correction. I'd missed this bit: http://tinyurl.com/59jy46 The stuff at the end of the thread, from D-y is truly classic, and highlights your points Howard. Maybe a bit subtle, since it doesn't accuse you, and anyone left of Attila the Hun of wanting to exterminate life on the planet, but it's good. I'm sorry I missed it because it, instantly, brought back memories of driving for miles with no lights since the electrical system was terrible, but would generate enough electricity to keep the fuel pump going and things like that if you shut off the lights for quite a while before it cut out totally. Several alternators and other charging system components just prolonged the agony. The final and, for me, fatal flaw, (D-y's Chevy "three on the tree" linkage bit is SO accurate you KNOW he's been there), was the at the shifter in the Rabbit was held into the tunnel by a plastic gimbal which allowed the stick to float and shift. Not a good idea to have the pivot point, and sole support for the shifter to be made of cheap plastic. I was at a busy set of lights, headed for elctrical parts, pretty ****ed off, and when the light changed I slapped it into first. I'd had it in neutral, revving it, hoping to see some charging activity, no luck there. When I did the shifter shot through the floor, out onto the ground taking the "leather" boot and all with it. Can you say "red faced"? Even with replacement plastic parts this continued to be a problem. Most likely due to worn **** holding the gimbal assembly. It wasn't worth detailed troubleshooting after the new one did the same thing after a while. PS I really do hate it when I run with something from memory, and end up red faced, again. I keep saying "That'll teach me", but it doesn't seem to work. And yes I would expect people who claim to be better than him to say "You got it right on this one." when he, or anyone else does. Even the blind squirrell gets credit for finding a nut once in a while. I keep being told it's worse when we do it because we are supposed to be better, so I'd say that applies here too. IMO that doesn't apply to you and TK though. The, I want to choose the words carefully here, brutally hostile, psychopathic maybe, totally irrational reaction you provoke from him just for living puts you in a different situation. I'm really surprised that he doesn't react that way to more people too. I'm not sure what, in particular, makes you the target since others have been much nastier to him, with much less provocation. I guess in this case, in particular, when he is right I feel he needs to be recognized for it. It's intellectually honest, it sets whoever does it apart, it validates their integrity. It's easy to laud someone you like, it's much harder to give recognition to someone you don't, particularly someone who attacks you, but it's the right thing to do IMO, and makes you a better, more credible person for being able to do it. It really doesn't cost anything to give credit, in proportional measure, where it's due. My Bad Thanks Bill C |
#30
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TK was exactly right. OT
On Jun 21, 10:50*pm, Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
snip Dumbass - Biofuels are potentially a solution. The problem is the solution isn't any that the government is spending $$$ on (like the corn based ethanol). If they manage to get the enzyme going that'll convert the cellulose products into ethanol, that'll be a help. The biggest thing is what Craig Venter is working on: genetically engineering bacteria so that they convert CO2 and sunlight into hydrocarbons. It sounds a bit science-fiction-ish until one considers that fossil fuels themselves are a form of biofuel. Oil started out as dead phytoplankton on the bottom of an anaerobic ocean. Eventually the problem is going to be solved. There will be some backwards looking oil companies that won't like it. thanks, K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Dumbass Ya know you're ****ing up. You do it pretty often too. It's hard to play the asshole blowhard type when you post good, well thought out, researched, accurate ****, and solidly based opinions anytime you aren't purposely yanking someones chain. Monkeyboy does a lot of that too. Bill C |
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