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#21
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The idiocy of Tom Sherman
In article
, Andy Evans wrote: Given the choice of freedom to carry guns or freedom to walk around in public without encountering people with guns I know what I'd choose. The government's ability to freely impose any anti-Constitutional controls on the population they prefer? I'm in the UK - I guess one benefit of not having a constitution is that it doesn't get out of date. We had a lot of daft laws in the nineteenth century but they all got repealed as they became archaic. I mean, the death penalty for stealing a sheep, defacing London Bridge or impersonating a Chelsea Pensioner. I think not, but the US Constitution predates the repeal of all these. Not quite so easy to change a constitution. On the other hand, you have Magna Carta which bore a strong influence on the US Constitution. I don't know to what extent Magna Carta is considered a working document in daily jurisprudence, whereas the Constitution here is. A core discussion in US legal circles is the extent to which the Constitution- which comprises a tiny fragment of the mass of US law- is a "living" document that is changeable and interpretable to account for developments in technology and society versus being immutable and absolute. Also part of this is the extent to which the Constitution should be interpreted in terms of the discernable indent of its framers versus a literalist interpretation (e.g., that Americans only have the rights that are spelled out explicitly in the Constitution). |
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#22
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The idiocy of Tom Sherman
"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
... Well, it's an interesting discussion. The Second Amendment, as (badly and almost incomprehensibly) written, could be construed as preventing the government from regulating arms ownership in any way whatsoever. Funny thing is that the Second Amendment didn't give the framers any problems at all. Strange that you have so much trouble reading it. You want to own a machine gun? Go ahead. Mortar? Ditto. RPG? That too. C4? Can't stop you. When did an explosive become a firearm? Your own private nukes arsenal? If you can afford it, go ahead. The recent Supreme Court decision opened the way for these scenarios and the current makeup of SCOTUS makes such decisions possible. Did you even bother to read the decision before commenting on it? Sure, those examples are absurd. The question is where the line can and should be reasonably drawn. Reasonable people will disagree on where than line is, unreasonable people will disagree even more vehemently and in some cases violently. Pretending that there is a huge question about firearms is part of the problem. The fact is that 90% of the citizens of this country are not questioning the second amendment - only those whose entire purpose in life is to make problems where none exist. |
#23
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The idiocy of Tom Sherman
"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
... And just to show that gun rights are more important to Minnesotans than property rights, under our law you can carry your concealed weapon onto any private property (stores, churches, hospitals, someone's home, etc.) you want without asking permission unless the property owner has posted a sign saying you can't. This is America, dammit. God, guns and guts made us great. Hmm apparently you don't understand that the Constitution overrules any lesser laws. Also you seem to have missed the point that after gun control laws were voided in places like Florida, crime took a HUGE drop. But of course you may pretend otherwise. |
#24
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The idiocy of Tom Sherman
wrote in message
... Of course the US is a democracy and as such a better type of government than others mentioned, but foreign policy is an entity in itself, democracy or not, and it doesn't help to confuse the two or create non-sequitors like "all democracies have better foreign policies". Amen. But it's so much fun to criticize Let's remember that the same people who would so instantly and vocally condemn the US for the slightest problem they see cannot find anything at all wrong with the Communist domination of their people in China. They're perfectly willing to look the other way as Tibetans are murdered in the streets for asking China to get their troops out of Tibet. |
#25
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The idiocy of Ed Dolan
Tim McNamara wrote:
In article , Andy Evans wrote: Given the choice of freedom to carry guns or freedom to walk around in public without encountering people with guns I know what I'd choose. The government's ability to freely impose any anti-Constitutional controls on the population they prefer? I'm in the UK - I guess one benefit of not having a constitution is that it doesn't get out of date. We had a lot of daft laws in the nineteenth century but they all got repealed as they became archaic. I mean, the death penalty for stealing a sheep, defacing London Bridge or impersonating a Chelsea Pensioner. I think not, but the US Constitution predates the repeal of all these. Not quite so easy to change a constitution. On the other hand, you have Magna Carta which bore a strong influence on the US Constitution. I don't know to what extent Magna Carta is considered a working document in daily jurisprudence, whereas the Constitution here is. A core discussion in US legal circles is the extent to which the Constitution- which comprises a tiny fragment of the mass of US law- is a "living" document that is changeable and interpretable to account for developments in technology and society versus being immutable and absolute. Also part of this is the extent to which the Constitution should be interpreted in terms of the discernable indent of its framers versus a literalist interpretation (e.g., that Americans only have the rights that are spelled out explicitly in the Constitution). The truth in the US is that the final arbiter of the interpretation of the Constitution, the Supreme Court, will make judgments based solely on political factors (e.g. Bush v. Gore). Furthermore, the executive branch can violate the Constitution at will, and the Congress will do nothing since it is not "politically expedient". -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia “Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken / She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.” |
#26
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The idiocy of Ed Dolan
Tom Kunich wrote:
"Tim McNamara" wrote in message ... Well, it's an interesting discussion. The Second Amendment, as (badly and almost incomprehensibly) written, could be construed as preventing the government from regulating arms ownership in any way whatsoever. Funny thing is that the Second Amendment didn't give the framers any problems at all. Strange that you have so much trouble reading it. You want to own a machine gun? Go ahead. Mortar? Ditto. RPG? That too. C4? Can't stop you. When did an explosive become a firearm? But the Second Amendment says "arms", not firearms. Your own private nukes arsenal? If you can afford it, go ahead. The recent Supreme Court decision opened the way for these scenarios and the current makeup of SCOTUS makes such decisions possible. Did you even bother to read the decision before commenting on it? With a few McCain appointed justices, organizations such as Blackwater might be allowed practically unlimited weaponry. Sure, those examples are absurd. The question is where the line can and should be reasonably drawn. Reasonable people will disagree on where than line is, unreasonable people will disagree even more vehemently and in some cases violently. Pretending that there is a huge question about firearms is part of the problem. The fact is that 90% of the citizens of this country are not questioning the second amendment - only those whose entire purpose in life is to make problems where none exist. Citation for the 90%? -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia “Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken / She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.” |
#27
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The idiocy of Ed Dolan
Tim McNamara wrote:
In article , Andy Evans wrote: People should be free to be daft, at least to a degree. As a former governor of my state observed, you can't legislate against stupidity. But I think you can - you can make guns illegal, smoking in public spaces illegal, drugs illegal etc etc. We already have a legal system that imposes penalties for all sorts of stupid and destructive behaviour, and I believe that it is widely accepted. Guns aren't illegal here, of course. Smoking in public spaces is banned only because of the secondhand smoke problem, otherwise it would not be the subject of legislation. Indeed, it is very important that Americans keep smoking heavily because this is a major source of tax revenue. Our rather schizophrenic anti-drug laws come from our Puritan heritage and are, in the main, counterproductive and costly. And of course we still have anti-homosexuality laws on the books in many places around the country, and we'll even arrest alleged homosexuals in airport toilets even when they haven't broken the law.... Have to crack down on the "wide stance" minority, no? -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia “Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken / She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.” |
#28
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The idiocy of Ed Dolan
Tom Kunich wrote:
"Tim McNamara" wrote in message ... And just to show that gun rights are more important to Minnesotans than property rights, under our law you can carry your concealed weapon onto any private property (stores, churches, hospitals, someone's home, etc.) you want without asking permission unless the property owner has posted a sign saying you can't. This is America, dammit. God, guns and guts made us great. Hmm apparently you don't understand that the Constitution overrules any lesser laws. Also you seem to have missed the point that after gun control laws were voided in places like Florida, crime took a HUGE drop. But of course you may pretend otherwise. Having most everyone armed has also resulted in huge drops in violence in places like Iraq. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia “Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken / She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.” |
#29
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The idiocy of Tom Sherman
"Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote in
m: "Tim McNamara" wrote in message ... And just to show that gun rights are more important to Minnesotans than property rights, under our law you can carry your concealed weapon onto any private property (stores, churches, hospitals, someone's home, etc.) you want without asking permission unless the property owner has posted a sign saying you can't. This is America, dammit. God, guns and guts made us great. Hmm apparently you don't understand that the Constitution overrules any lesser laws. Also you seem to have missed the point that after gun control laws were voided in places like Florida, crime took a HUGE drop. But of course you may pretend otherwise. The crime drop is the one thing that the anti-gun forces both can't explain and choose to ignore. However, if the anti-gun forces had a little crreativity, they could make the whole discussion moot. Here's how. Guns are allowed. No problem with that. However, lead styphnate is an explosive, as are lead azide and fulminate of mercury. All of these can be used as primer mixtures, the content of the primer, the dealie that makes the cartridge fire. Why not just declare that these compounds are controlled explosives, which they assuredly are in larger quantities, and make ammunition subject to controls? So the gun forces could have all the guns they wanted and the anti-gun forces would see to it that the guns couldn't be fired. I had a successful career with firearms and my father was also involved with weapons, so please, no personal invective accusing me of anti-gun bias. Barry Harmon |
#30
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The idiocy of Ed Dolan
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
... The truth in the US is that the final arbiter of the interpretation of the Constitution, the Supreme Court, will make judgments based solely on political factors (e.g. Bush v. Gore). Furthermore, the executive branch can violate the Constitution at will, and the Congress will do nothing since it is not "politically expedient". I wish that I had absolutely no faith nor sense concerning the Supreme Court. That way I could believe that they make Constitutional interpretations based on political agendas instead of their conscious. After all, one false move and they'd lose their jobs. |
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