Its Started

"Fred Fredburger" wrote in
message ...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Stick to established facts.
Mike, I suggest you actually learn what the facts are. For instance,
it is my guess that you've never even bothered to look up Obama's
voting record in the Senate.

Wrong.

Yeah, but I'll bet you didn't look it up at rushlimbaugh.com

Right!

It's OK to be a conservative, and it's OK to believe that it's better
for the country. But I don't think it's OK to blindly make assumptions
and look for stuff on the 'net (or wherever) to support a decision you
already made.

If you want an example of a very conservative person who's kept an open
mind about things, look at Reverend Dobsen's "conversion." In 2006, the
guy is anti-Obama, believing that he uses the bible to further his own
causes and distorts where helpful. In 2008, he votes for Obama, the
first time in his life he's ever voted for a Democrat for President,
because he believes that Obama has lived a life closest to what Jesus
did. That took not just thinking, but courage to do.

That's something sererely lacking in many. The courage to recognize
that, oh my gosh, maybe somebody else was right after all.

As I've grown older, I've discovered that the more absolutely certain I
am about something, the more likely it is that I could be wrong.
Continuous examination of the data, and the soul, is a very good thing.
It doesn't mean you have nothing to stand on; the most-important
principles are ethical and can be absolute. But if you have, say,
pacifist beliefs that don't allow you to consider there may be times
when strong action is required, and you let those beliefs color
everything about how you see the world... I think that gets in the way
of solutions to problems. Similarly, if you believe that the only way
something can be handled is with a show of force, same thing.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Watch the documentary on Rober
McNamara, "The Fog of War."

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

On Jan 4, 6:55*pm, Howard Kveck wrote:
In article ,
*Bill C wrote:

Yep, and can germany get Alsace and the Sudetenland back now too?
These are basically the same desert tribes that have been fighting
over the same region since the Fertile Crescent saw it's first
civiliazations. Same **** different century, except now one is steeped
into the most hideous ideology to hit the 20th century, and has
grafted Islamic Fundamentalist extremism onto that.
*These are the folks who brag about beheadings, torture, purposely
tageting civilians, refusal to negotiate on any right for Israel and
Jews not to be exterminated.

* *You still ignore that Israel has blockaded Gaza since Hamas won a fair election.
You and Israel may not like Hamas but they have done a lot better for the people in
Gaza than Fatah ever did. You also still ignore that Hamas has tried to negotiate an
end to the blockade and got no where for it except an attack by Israel on an alleged
tunnel. You ignore that Israel broke the ceasefire in that attack.

* *It's a funny thing about that blockade, Bill, that you also igno "Egyptian
President Gamal Abdel Nasser blockaded the Straits of Tiran on May 21st and 22nd to
all shipping from and to Eilat; the area was open to Israeli ships under UN
supervision since 1957, and Israel repeatedly stated that such a blockade will be
considered as casus belli (justification for acts of war)." *Where do you suppose
that quote comes from, Bill? How about the official Knesset history of the Six Day
War. So a blockade was enough reason for Israel to got to war, yet you think the
Gazans should just deal with it. Does that sound about right?

*Howard says he despises Davey for his racist, fascist leanings, but
wholeheartedly supports people who hold the same philosphy and are
carrying it forward with religious war and hatred grafted to it. If
Davey's despicable what does that make Howard. Here's agood clip of
the folks Howard supports:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9JpRytCx0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOZv...eature=related

* *Really, Bill? I "wholeheartedly support them?" You are so full of **** it isn't
funny. You've proven yourself to be a grade A moron here. Thanks for posting the
eveidence of it, pinhead. Are you aware of anything at all? I'm starting to think
not. You've proven yourself to be as much of an asshole as Tom Kunich does on a daily
basis with those comments.

* *You are in full support of a country engaged in *collective punishment* -
apparently that's acceptable to you when it's just brown people. Do you support the
actions of the Germans at Lidice? How different is that from what Israel has been
doing for the last week? You regularly ignore the statements from Israelis about
destroying Palestinians. I'm not talking about some clown on the street saying that -
I'm talking about people in power, in the government. Like this:
__________________________
* *When 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it's going to be a human
catastrophe. Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with
the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful.
It's going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill
and kill and kill. All day, every day.
__________________________

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...6&pagename=JPo...
FPrinter

* *orhttp://tinyurl.com/8q395t

* *That quote is from Arnon Soffer, who worked closely with Sharon on the alleged
"disengagement plan" for Gaza. "Kill and kill and kill. All day, every day."

* *Try this on:

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/n...the_arabs.html

--
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * tanx,
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Howard

* * * * * * * * * * * * *Caught playing safe
* * * * * * * * * * * * * It's a bored game

* * * * * * * * * * *remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Hit a nerve? You can spin it anyway you want you have consistently
supported and excused the Islamic Fundamentalist children of the
Nazis. Must be bacuse you hate Jews, right, if we're just gonna pull
**** out of our asses.
I've also got "blasts" using the term you used to try and minimize my
argument about the Klan, the Aryan Nations and the other racist,
fascist scumbags who believe the same things as Hamas without the
Islamic Fundamentalist garbage.
Is the West Bank blockaded? The Palestinians have many legitimate
gripes. The stated goal of exterminating a whole country and it's
people is NOT and acceptable solution to me. It seems it is to you.
There is nothing you aren't willing to excuse them.
At least the scum you keep accusing Davey of supporting are mostly
octagenarians these days, not child warriors.
You are what you do, Howard and that's all on display for us to see.
hate, torture, political prisoners, etc...are all somewhere between
good, and "kinda ****ty" as long as done by people you like, support,
or agree with politically.
Then you claim "I don't support that, I support the people." As you
point out Hamas was elected on the platform of NO negotiation of the
right of Israel to exist, and the pledge to continue killing Jews
until they were all gone with no negotiation.
The people of Gaza are responsible for their choice the same way We,
the Germans, the Japanese, etc...were and are responsible for their
leadership.
Peace isn't 5000 rockets targeted, specifically, at civilians over
the last 2 years. They wanted war, now they have it.
Bill C

On Jan 4, 6:46*pm, Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
On Jan 4, 11:57*am, Bill C wrote:





On Jan 2, 8:29*pm, Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

On Jan 2, 3:55*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message

...

On Jan 2, 1:25 pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

Then explain to me why conservative and peaceful Arabs are trying to
move
into Israel where they can make a decent living and have a decent living
standard that isn't available in the surrounding Arab ruled countries?

Strawman.

HAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I'm talking about the continuous expansion of settlements in the West
Bank. As long as Israel continues to expand its territory, she will
never have peace, nor does she deserve it. There isn't a people on the
face of the planet that will not fight if their territory is being
taken away.

Say, didn't ISRAEL win all of that territory in wars that the surrounding
Arab nations started?

Dumbass -

In the West Bank the settlements have been increasingly encroaching on
Palestinan territory. That is a fact.

The expansion isn't even fully supported in Israel itself. Most of
them are "illegal" even under Israeli law, but they don't have an
enforcement mechanism to get rid of the illegal settlements.
Eventually the squatters become permanent and the Palestinians,
naturally, want to do something about it.

If you were in their shoes, you would too.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep, and can germany get Alsace and the Sudetenland back now too?

Ignoramous -

The settlement expansions have happened all in the last 20 years and
are continuing to this day.

If someone was taking your territory, you'd likely be doing something
about it.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep. That's been the justification given for lots of wars and global
slaughters, right along with religion. There are lots of things to be
done that don't involve 5000 rockets targeting civilians in the last 2
years. How about hitting military checkpoints, hitting the illegal
settlements, hitting the leaders who are pushing it.
Those are all acceptable from a military standpoint, blowing up
markets, nightclubs, school busses, and indiscriminately firing on
civilians are war crimes, and crimes against humanity. How many have
been charged by the ICC, arrested, etc...
The cobtrary is true. The cease fire was agreed in Lebanon based on
the international community and the UN demilitarizing the Lebanese
border and keeping Hezbullah from rearming. They are now better armed
than they were at the start of the war, by all accounts, and that was
done with the folks supposedly keeping this from happening doing
nothing to prevent it and uphold the cease fire conditions.
Bill C

"Howard Kveck" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Bill C wrote:

Yep, and can germany get Alsace and the Sudetenland back now too?
These are basically the same desert tribes that have been fighting
over the same region since the Fertile Crescent saw it's first
civiliazations. Same **** different century, except now one is steeped
into the most hideous ideology to hit the 20th century, and has
grafted Islamic Fundamentalist extremism onto that.
These are the folks who brag about beheadings, torture, purposely
tageting civilians, refusal to negotiate on any right for Israel and
Jews not to be exterminated.

You still ignore that Israel has blockaded Gaza since Hamas won a fair
election.
You and Israel may not like Hamas but they have done a lot better for the
people in
Gaza than Fatah ever did. You also still ignore that Hamas has tried to
negotiate an
end to the blockade and got no where for it except an attack by Israel on
an alleged
tunnel. You ignore that Israel broke the ceasefire in that attack.

It's a funny thing about that blockade, Bill, that you also igno
"Egyptian
President Gamal Abdel Nasser blockaded the Straits of Tiran on May 21st
and 22nd to
all shipping from and to Eilat; the area was open to Israeli ships under
UN
supervision since 1957, and Israel repeatedly stated that such a blockade
will be
considered as casus belli (justification for acts of war)." Where do you
suppose
that quote comes from, Bill? How about the official Knesset history of the
Six Day
War. So a blockade was enough reason for Israel to got to war, yet you
think the
Gazans should just deal with it. Does that sound about right?

Howard says he despises Davey for his racist, fascist leanings, but
wholeheartedly supports people who hold the same philosphy and are
carrying it forward with religious war and hatred grafted to it. If
Davey's despicable what does that make Howard. Here's agood clip of
the folks Howard supports:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9JpRytCx0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOZv...eature=related

Really, Bill? I "wholeheartedly support them?" You are so full of ****
it isn't
funny. You've proven yourself to be a grade A moron here. Thanks for
posting the
eveidence of it, pinhead. Are you aware of anything at all? I'm starting
to think
not. You've proven yourself to be as much of an asshole as Tom Kunich does
on a daily
basis with those comments.

You are in full support of a country engaged in *collective
punishment* -
apparently that's acceptable to you when it's just brown people. Do you
support the
actions of the Germans at Lidice? How different is that from what Israel
has been
doing for the last week? You regularly ignore the statements from Israelis
about
destroying Palestinians. I'm not talking about some clown on the street
saying that -
I'm talking about people in power, in the government. Like this:
__________________________
When 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it's going to be a
human
catastrophe. Those people will become even bigger animals than they are
today, with
the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will
be awful.
It's going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will
have to kill
and kill and kill. All day, every day.
__________________________

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...FJPArt icle%2
FPrinter

or http://tinyurl.com/8q395t

That quote is from Arnon Soffer, who worked closely with Sharon on the
alleged
"disengagement plan" for Gaza. "Kill and kill and kill. All day, every
day."

Try this on:

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/n...the_arabs.html

--
tanx,
Howard

Caught playing safe
It's a bored game

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?



You said, "... Israel has blockaded Gaza since Hamas won a fair election."

Yeah, HAMAS won a fair election. Hitler also won a fair election. I'm sure
Hitler also gained popularity and trust in German society by establishing
hospitals, education systems, libraries and other services throughout
Germany - just like HAMAS. Hitler's charter called for the annahalation of
the Jews - just like HAMAS. The Iraelis and Arabs will always be opposed to
each other, but the strain would be greatly reduced without the Arab cancer
called HAMAS. But what does any of this have to do with bike racing? It
has nothing to do with bike racing.

"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message
...

It's OK to be a conservative, and it's OK to believe that it's better for
the country. But I don't think it's OK to blindly make assumptions and
look for stuff on the 'net (or wherever) to support a decision you already
made.

So it's OK in your book for the press to hide things Obama does and says?
OK!

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message
...

The settlement expansions have happened all in the last 20 years and
are continuing to this day.

Psst - the settlement expansions have happened since 1948. But don't worry,
be happy.

On Jan 4, 3:55*pm, Howard Kveck wrote:

* *You are in full support of a country engaged in *collective punishment* -

See what a scourge is laid upon your hate...all are punish'd.

-Paul

Off topic. This newsgroup is about bike racing.

r e c . b i c y c l e s . r a c i n g


"Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote in message
m...
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message
...

It's OK to be a conservative, and it's OK to believe that it's better for
the country. But I don't think it's OK to blindly make assumptions and
look for stuff on the 'net (or wherever) to support a decision you
already made.

So it's OK in your book for the press to hide things Obama does and says?
OK!

In article ,
"Chinese Math" wrote:

But what does any of this have to do with bike racing? It
has nothing to do with bike racing.

Is someone forcing you to read those posts? No? Then don't read them.

--
tanx,
Howard

Caught playing safe
It's a bored game

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Of Topic. This newsgroup is about bike racing.

r e c . b i c y c l e s . r a c i n g




"Howard Kveck" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Chinese Math" wrote:

But what does any of this have to do with bike racing? It
has nothing to do with bike racing.

Is someone forcing you to read those posts? No? Then don't read them.

--
tanx,
Howard

Caught playing safe
It's a bored game

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?